Water issue CaCO3

[archthered]

I am making the switch from extract to all grain brewing and was rereading some of my books as a refresher on mashing etc. Additionally I have recently moved so I decided to check my new source of water and the local water report (yes I'm going to mail in some water for a proper analysis) says that I have a pH of 8.7 and "Total Hardness as CaCO3" of 215mg/L and a "Total Hardness as CaCO3"12.6 grains per gallon. My understanding is that with this much carbonate (CO3) I probably shouldn't bother trying to make beer (other than really dark one) because the carbonate will essentially halt the mashing process and what beer a I do get will be overly dark for light beers and taste harsh since it will be full of tannins.

So here are my questions, assuming my lab test confirms what the local analysis says, am I understanding the situation correctly? That is am I understanding the effects of carbonate correctly? If so what can I do about it?

I planned on mixing some of my water with water from another source to save money but I'm open to alternatives. At first I was thinking I would get some water from the grocery store, my understanding is that most of the ones you fill your/theirs are just the local water (with the same issue I have) run through reverse osmosis. In my understanding the problem with this is that RO doesn't typically remove particles as small as CO3. I could use the bottled water they get trucked in from who knows where, it cost more but I'm actually more worried about inconsistency in water quality or ending up with water no better than I already have, though I could send that water for testing too. I have thought about using acid to fix it but I'm worried I'd need a lot to fix this problem (cost) and worry about getting the amount just right.

At any rate if any of you have any experience with using water from the grocery store or dealing with carbonate please let me know what you think! Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

"Total Hardness as CaCO3"12.6 grains per gallon. My understanding is that with this much carbonate (CO3)

"Total Hardness as CaCO3" is not a measure of the calcium carbonate in the water but rather the total of magnesium and calcium both of which are beneficial to beer up to a point.

The accompanying bad news is that with that much hardness there is probably an alkalinity number of nearly equal magnitude - also expressed in grains per gallon as CaCO3. That's not the amount of calcium carbonate in the water either but does represent a problem for brewers because of its effect on mash pH. The actual amount of calcium cabonate is likely to be at most a few mg/L. "As CaCO3" is an archaic way of expressing the equivalence of an ion. This has all been explained here hundreds of times. Check the archives.

So here are my questions, assuming my lab test confirms what the local analysis says, am I understanding the situation correctly? That is am I understanding the effects of carbonate correctly? If so what can I do about it?

You are not understanding what "as CaCO3" means correctly but you are understanding correctly that alkalinity is a problem. There are many ways to solve this problem and, probably, thousands of posts on how to do that here.

 

[mabrungard]

To add to AJ's comments, consider the following example: Distilled water with 1/4 gram/gallon each of gypsum, calcium chloride, and epsom salt will produce hardness of about 250 ppm (as CaCO3) while the alkalinity is still ZERO. Hardness as CaCO3 is no indicator of the water's alkalinity. Hardness is rarely a problem in brewing, but alkalinity almost always is.

 

[bruhaha]

I am making the switch from extract to all grain brewing and was rereading some of my books as a refresher on mashing etc. Additionally I have recently moved so I decided to check my new source of water and the local water report (yes I'm going to mail in some water for a proper analysis) says that I have a pH of 8.7 and "Total Hardness as CaCO3" of 215mg/L and a "Total Hardness as CaCO3"12.6 grains per gallon. My understanding is that with this much carbonate (CO3) I probably shouldn't bother trying to make beer (other than really dark one) because the carbonate will essentially halt the mashing process and what beer a I do get will be overly dark for light beers and taste harsh since it will be full of tannins.

So here are my questions, assuming my lab test confirms what the local analysis says, am I understanding the situation correctly? That is am I understanding the effects of carbonate correctly? If so what can I do about it?

I planned on mixing some of my water with water from another source to save money but I'm open to alternatives. At first I was thinking I would get some water from the grocery store, my understanding is that most of the ones you fill your/theirs are just the local water (with the same issue I have) run through reverse osmosis. In my understanding the problem with this is that RO doesn't typically remove particles as small as CO3. I could use the bottled water they get trucked in from who knows where, it cost more but I'm actually more worried about inconsistency in water quality or ending up with water no better than I already have, though I could send that water for testing too. I have thought about using acid to fix it but I'm worried I'd need a lot to fix this problem (cost) and worry about getting the amount just right.

At any rate if any of you have any experience with using water from the grocery store or dealing with carbonate please let me know what you think! Thanks.

You have two of the best in the water business (AJ and Martin) both addressing your water concerns with you. If you do a Wards Lab analysis, I'd use that as a baseline for sure.

I recently had an indepth visit with a major craft brewer in Asheville NC. His comment was, when they searched for an east coast site to compliment their original west coast location, infrastructure and WATER were two biggies. I asked if they want water to reflect a target profile like a major European city? Heavens no, we want neutral water to adjust to our liking. It is expensive to remove minerals, but quite easy and affordable to add them. He made his case.

Point being that you can spend tons on RO systems or filters to combat water issues. Or simply buy distilled water which should be consistent and adjust for the various styles you wish to brew. Martin's spreadsheet, Bru'n water, takes you anywhere you need to go regarding water adjustments. Rather than fight the fight you are heading with your water, distilled seems a good option.

BTW....lactic acid and minerals you may need are quite inexpensive.

 

[archthered]

Thanks for your advice! I was operating under the mistaken assumption that given the high pH AND hardness it was almost certain that I have an amount of actual CO3 that was quite high (not sure where I got the idea since I tried to look it up again but couldn't). At any rate I'll wait for the water report, review water chemistry in the mean time, and go from there, keeping acid and distilled water in mind. Thanks again everyone!

 

[bruhaha]

Thanks for your advice! I was operating under the mistaken assumption that given the high pH AND hardness it was almost certain that I have an amount of actual CO3 that was quite high (not sure where I got the idea since I tried to look it up again but couldn't). At any rate I'll wait for the water report, review water chemistry in the mean time, and go from there, keeping acid and distilled water in mind. Thanks again everyone!

Yeah, I'd see what your real water report looks like before I made any firm plans. If you look at a grocery store or WalMart, they usually sell gal jugs of distilled water which you can count on being neutral. As far as going to one of those kiosk deals and pushing a button to dispense water, frankly I'd avoid that.

Water adjustments can't really be overemphasized. I think it's a basic part of brewing, but many of the pro's don't push it to new brewers since there is an awful lot of info to digest w/o throwing in the water adjustment discussion. "If your water tastes good enough to drink, it will make good beer" is an inaccurate quote you'll hear a lot.

I had made an AG batch of light Pils with generic distilled water...no additions. I studied water adjustments, then made another Pils with the same recipe but with acid (ph) and mineral adjustments. I cannot begin to tell you the difference a heads up tasting revealed. A few basic ingredients like gypsum, CaCl, Espom salts and lactic acid is what I keep handy. The whole deal I just listed was under $10. But what a difference it makes in the AG world! As a previous extract brewer, mashing had been handled for you by the extract makers. In the AG arena, the water adjustments are on us as the brewers!!

Good brewing!