Water Heater as HLT

[Owly055]

So your just going to completely ignore the main point which was the tanks is also full of rust and the water is harder which is bad for brewing in most cases... You would do a better job of making your points if you were so confrontational and obvious at ignoring the points trying to be made.

Your on a roll in all your threads today... looks like someone pissed in your wheaties or are you always this way online?

Bottom line is its not a good idea to use water from your hot water tank for brewing... you can pour a glass and compare if you like but as others have already said it tastes nasty and nasty water is not the ideal foundation for good tasting beer.

Frankly I have yet to see an argument that really was sound that would discourage me from using water from my water heater. It is by the way absurd to suggest that water from the water heater is harder ( higher mineral content ) than water from the cold tap. The very fact that minerals drop out forming deposits discredits that assertion. As far as water from the hot tap tasting nasty...... I call BS on that....... I suggest that you boil and cool water from your cold tap, and place a glass of that next to a glass from your hot tap. There is no difference....... Who drinks hot water? Hot water has lost it's aeration, and it has a reduced mineral content as compared to water from the cold tap. "it tastes nasty"..... is a totally subjective comment not based on any real useful comparison.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

I think the idea of using an old water heater to generate hot liquor fits perfectly with a lot of the other ideas the OP has espoused...

Did I espouse using an "old hot water heater"?

 

[augiedoggy]

http://www.redearslider.com/water_quality_issues.html

http://www.purewater2000.com/problems.html

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-407316.html

Go into any aquarium store and they will tell how just using water from the hot water side of your faucet for top off can mess up your water quality and cause bad algae blooms

 

[day_trippr]

Did I espouse using an "old hot water heater"?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you did.

Repeatedly...

Cheers!

 

[Owly055]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you did.

Repeatedly...

Cheers!

Show me the quote........ I was advocating using a water heater in lieu of an HLT..... Nowhere did I advocate using an "old" hot water heater..... You read that in.


H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

It should be mentioned that many tried to use anodes to stop the rusting at the water heating element base in the electric brew setups and found they are not very effective. (There are a few threads on it here).. Chances are you will have rust in your hot water supply withing a couple years regardless of anode condition. Obviously there are factors that effect this such as the ph and hardness of your water (I'm no expert on this but have been told this stuff has a large effect on rust forming quicker.)

 

[SanPancho]

Unless you have very clean clear water, probly not great idea. Could it work for you? Sure. But really not a great idea if you're on a well or otherwise have hard water or high TDS. I'd propose-

Get a small tankless heater, a used commercial model is best. They regularly will go to 160-170.

Find an old commercial coffee machine instead- all stainless inside

If you insist on using an old residential water heater, flush it like crazy with descaler or acid solution, rinse like hell, and put a filter inline to keep it clean inside and sediment free. (I assume it's dedicated fro brewing only).


Good luck.

 

[augiedoggy]

As far as water from the hot tap tasting nasty...... I call BS on that....... I suggest that you boil and cool water from your cold tap, and place a glass of that next to a glass from your hot tap. There is no difference....... Who drinks hot water? Hot water has lost it's aeration, and it has a reduced mineral content as compared to water from the cold tap. "it tastes nasty"..... is a totally subjective comment not based on any real useful comparison.

H.W.

In Case you missed it on the first page of this thread....

I had done a simple test a year ago. Filled a glass with hot water from the tap and another glass from the cold water tap. Let them sit overnight to come to the same temperature and for the oxygen to come out of the cold water sample.
The hot water sample smelled bad and tasted worse. The cold water sample was fine.

I swapped out my hot water tank for a tankless years ago So I cant do this experiment even if I wanted to...

 

[augiedoggy]

Show me the quote........ I was advocating using a water heater in lieu of an HLT..... Nowhere did I advocate using an "old" hot water heater..... You read that in.


H.W.

Your going to buy a hot water heater just for brewing? How will that be faster and more efficient? they are pretty slow to warm up. Are you going to keep it running with hot water all the time just for you brew sessions? You must brew quite a bit for that to even make sense..
Many have just automated their HLT with electric elements and a pid with a timer to warm it up head of time.... That seems much simpler to me.
I flip mine on prior to brewing and in about 30 minutes its ready to mash... Of course I no longer use tap water for any of my beers but stouts and porters without treating it with my RO setup first. Huge improvement especially in my lighter beers.

 

[day_trippr]

Something just happened, didn't it?

 

[slym2none]

Arguing about weather a water heater purifies is hardly the point.

But it's a point you deemed fit to make.

 

[applescrap]

I haven't stated how i brew fast and no ones asked.......i start with hot water from heater and since on stove it speeds things up and this thread is messing with me...i tasted it and it tastes fine but when we go to Florida i wouldn't use their cold side tap no offense intended....holy cow you couldnt brew with that! I smoke cigars and eat fast food so its not like my body sees no impurities....i like your idea owly and brewing is something i want to simplify....im worried when we get new heater it is going to taste weird....yes the annode goes and glass gives way to rust....good thing our annode was probably gone years ago...hope new heater not weird. Im sure we are all drinking better water than syrian refugee. When i get 240v going might reconsider but it is plausible my hot water heater water tastes better than another states tap

Oh and one last thing I like the tap water if I wanted filtered water I would buy commercial brew I like character

 

[Kh2o]

Applesrap, I live in Florida and brew with tap. The water where I'm at is perfect. It is very neutral I can change the profile from a stout to a pale ales with minimum salt additions. ALL municipal water sources are clean! You just have to be smart enough to adjust your water profile to your recipe.

 

[augiedoggy]

I haven't stated how i brew fast and no ones asked.......i start with hot water from heater and since on stove it speeds things up and this thread is messing with me...i tasted it and it tastes fine but when we go to Florida i wouldn't use their cold side tap no offense intended....holy cow you couldnt brew with that! I smoke cigars and eat fast food so its not like my body sees no impurities....i like your idea owly and brewing is something i want to simplify....im worried when we get new heater it is going to taste weird....yes the annode goes and glass gives way to rust....good thing our annode was probably gone years ago...hope new heater not weird. Im sure we are all drinking better water than syrian refugee. When i get 240v going might reconsider but it is plausible my hot water heater water tastes better than another states tap

Oh and one last thing I like the tap water if I wanted filtered water I would buy commercial brew I like character

Ok I totally lost your point here?... So why not just drink Natural ice then? seriously if your point is to say you use poor water to make your beer but its better than a refugee drinks your kinda coming off like someone who doesnt care about what the beer tastes like because you just need it to get drunk... I'm not sure what cigars and fast food have to do with it either...

Again the point here is that water from the average hot water tank is full of a higher concentration of dissolved rust and possibly other minerals unless you filter your incoming water, also the ph can be higher due to "degassing" from what I've read in a couple articles...also there often is bacteria that forms in the sediment at the bottom. Higher ph water is bad for efficiency on everything but the porters and stouts. higher mineral content usually makes your lagers and pilsners taste bad. Most brewers here DO care what their beer tastes like...

Again do a search here on ANNODES, you will see that many experimented with them to try to stop the element bases from rusting and they didnt do ****! they were useless.... Most hot water tanks slowly start rusting right away and fail within 5-12 years after rotting out. I already posted a google image link to what the inside of a tank usually look like when cut open.... You really think that makes good beer?

 

[bja]

Again the point here is that water from the average hot water tank is full of a higher concentration of dissolved rust and possibly other minerals unleass you filter your incoming water,

Ok, try and think about this. Minerals precipitate out of water when it's heated, but you're saying that the water leaving the heater has a higher concentration of these minerals...

also the ph can be higher due to "degassing" from what I've read in a couple articles... higher ph water is bad for efficiency on everything but the porters and stouts.

This one is hilarious. The ph rises from "degassing". High ph is bad. Water degasses when it's heated. (See where I'm going here?) Do you not heat your strike water in your HLT?

higher mineral content usually makes your lagers and pilsners taste bad. Most brewers here DO care what their beer tastes like...

See my first comment...

I have to agree with other people on this forum. You spew out so much crap that it must be embarrassing sometimes when you go back and reread your own posts.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok, try and think about this. Minerals precipitate out of water when it's heated, but you're saying that the water leaving the heater has a higher concentration of these minerals...



This one is hilarious. The ph rises from "degassing". High ph is bad. Water degasses when it's heated. (See where I'm going here?) Do you not heat your strike water in your HLT?



See my first comment...

I have to agree with other people on this forum. You spew out so much crap that it must be embarrassing sometimes when you go back and reread your own posts.

You obviously think pretty highly of yourself I'm not even going to bother yelling up to you on that high horse of yours you signature sums you up nicely I'm not sure why you even bother coming here? Is it just to look and talk down to improve your ego?
You seem more hell bent on just trolling and attacking me in multiple threads the last few days than being productive here.
I am trying to be productive in this conversation I do not claim to know everything or be an expert here. you can make you points like an adult without all the childish personal attacks.

By other people Im assuming you mean "Sconnie12", who was bent out of shape when I and all the owners of the products he was bashing didnt see the rusting and cracking issues he was so adamant about being an issue with something he didnt own or have personal experience with?
He then linked a google search full of non related threads to back up his claims when I pointed it out they where not what he assumed and mentioned its not as common as he may thing it is with the larger kettles he just repeated that it was his professional opinion as an engineer... We are all supposed to just ignore our actual experience with these products and listen to him right? Because he doesnt appear to be Biased at all..

I already posted the articles that mentioned the comments about Degassing causing the ph to be higher in water from a hot water tank I commented that it was what I read and assumed it was something that occurred over time unlike water thats heated directly before use...
I can post articles all day that state its not a good idea to consume water from a hot water tank... I guess it would be easy enough for someone to test the water form their hot water tank vs their tap water... I do own a couple ph meters as well as a TDS meter so I will test this out at a friends who has a hot water tank...
I will share this... which may be useful to those that dont already know it all..


From the CDC: "In all situations, drink or cook only with water that comes out of the tap cold. Water that comes out of the tap warm or hot can contain much higher levels of lead. Boiling this water will NOT reduce the amount of lead in your water."
From the EPA: "Only Use Cold Water for Consumption: Use only water from the cold-water tap for drinking, cooking, and especially for making baby formula. Hot water is likely to contain higher levels of lead. The two actions recommended above [i.e., "flushing" water lines with fresh water and using only cold water] are very important to the health of your family. They will probably be effective in reducing lead levels because most of the lead in household water usually comes from the plumbing in your house, not from the local water supply."
From a New York Times article on the subject: "Lead is rarely found in source water, but can enter it through corroded plumbing. The Environmental Protection Agency says that older homes are more likely to have lead pipes and fixtures, but that even newer plumbing advertised as “lead-free” can still contain as much as 8 percent lead. A study published in The Journal of Environmental Health in 2002 found that tap water represented 14 to 20 percent of total lead exposure."

These warnings would not apply if one had plastic plumbing in their residence..

https://www.google.com/search?q=official+about+drinking+water+froma+hot+water+tank&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8
I read through a handful of these and not one site suggests its a good idea to consume or cook with water from a hot water tank...

 

[augiedoggy]

BTW I and many brewers also add minerals like Calcium carbonate to our RO water in our HLT to increase hardness (which increases PH)... What mineral is a typical hot water tank full of again?

I guess what needs to be determined is if the water in the tank has less of it because the heating process is stripping it or it has more from sitting in a tank full of it at times... my thoughts are that it varies dramatically depending on how much time the water spends in the tank.

 

[augiedoggy]

Ok so I own a duplex and got a sample of both hot water from the tank since I have a tankless in my place and cold from the cold side....... Results were surprising to me. both samples were the same temp when compared just now.

The cold water had slightly MORE TDS (158) the water from the tank had (145) the PH from the cold water side was lower (7.27) vs the hot (7.45) but both reading were close.

Now the taste test... I know this is subjective and has to be taken with a grain of salt but the hot water sample DID have an aftertaste to it for sure that the cold water did not... I would suggest anyone questioning this just try it for themselves...

I was expecting to find more dissolved solids in the hot water than the cold but was proven wrong..

Funny thing is the TDS readings from my tankless water heater were higher than my cold.. ph was the same.

 

[Homercidal]

Guys, this is a technical forum. Please keep the posts on topic and helpful. A spirited discussion is fine, but insults and snarky comments are not.

 

[Owly055]

I remain unmoved after reading all the comments here, and reading the links members so generously provided, none of which really make any valid case against hot water. I do brew with it, and will continue to brew with it. I do however intend to make a Mosaic Rye Wit twice, once starting with cold water, and once with hot water. A very light bodied pale low gravity brew. I'll do it with my next two brews maintaining very close process control.

I once previously mentioned the very observable fact that your drip coffee maker will not lime up as quickly if you fill it with hot water as it will if you fill it with cold. I discovered this (a tip from a friend) many years ago when I lived where the water was more mineralized than my current well water which is extremely high quality. It's a test any one of us can do, and it does confirm the very obvious fact that the mineral which accumulates in your water heater is removed from the water that passes through it. It doesn't start new with a huge accumulation and gradually lose it...... It starts out clean and it gradually builds up..... It's kind of a no-brainer in my book.

H.W.

 

[augiedoggy]

I remain unmoved .... It doesn't start new with a huge accumulation and gradually lose it...... It starts out clean and it gradually builds up..... It's kind of a no-brainer in my book.

H.W.

I dont think anyone was trying to say a new hot water tank starts out new with a huge accumulation... All I myself was trying to say is the accumulation happens and they do rust inside regardless of annodes or not. depending on water ph and mineral content this happens for some much faster than others...

Can we at least agree on this? If you want I can pull up some threads where people installed the annodes in thier HLT and boil kettles to stop element bases from rusting and they had no effect. they may be somewhat effective for some in a HWT but I still think if most people were to peek in their tanks right now they would find rust and sediment regardless of whether there is bacteria present or not depending on temp setpoint.

 

[bja]

If you want I can pull up some threads where people installed the annodes in thier HLT and boil kettles to stop element bases from rusting and they had no effect.

Do you know why?

Boil kettles and HLT's are drained and allowed to dry and the anode is no longer protecting anything. This is when the rust develops.

A HWT is never drained, so the anode is always decomposing and doing it's job.

 

[augiedoggy]

Do you know why?

Boil kettles and HLT's are drained and allowed to dry and the anode is no longer protecting anything. This is when the rust develops.

A HWT is never drained, so the anode is always decomposing and doing it's job.

No, I was not aware of that but it does make sense now that you explain it.

I assume the magnesium annode dissolving in the water tank has no negative affects on the flavor of the beer? Or could that be some of the aftertaste I picked up? to be fair the apartment next store has been empty since im remodeling so for the most part that water has been in the tank for longer than normal since the hot water isnt being used much.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

If I can jump in on the whole anode rod thing. Anode rods are made out of either zinc, magnesium, or aluminium. These are less noble metals than the steel tank it's in. Therefor, any corrosion or oxidation effects the anode rod instead of the tank for the life of the anode rod. Furthermore, the material of the anode rod should not negatively effect the taste or quality of the water. Contrarily, I've replaced aluminum and magnesium anode rods with their zinc counterparts. In some water municipalities there is a anaerobic bacteria that reacts with the aluminium and magnesium causing a 'rotten egg' smell.

I'd also like to point out that it's not a hot water heater. It doesn't heat hot water. It heats water... It's a water heater.

Okay, carry on. This is the funniest argument I've read on here in a while.

 

[augiedoggy]

I'd also like to point out that it's not a hot water heater. It doesn't heat hot water. It heats water... It's a water heater.

Okay, carry on. This is the funniest argument I've read on here in a while.

Why is it so funny? You dont see a downside of using what could very possibly look like this for brewing water storage? How many people here can honestly tell me they change or even check the Anodes in their water heater tanks? I bet the majority here have never done so. granted this is an extreme case below but still who knows what kind of shape the inside of ones water heater is in?
I kinda find it funny that such a concern is made over a little rust that may be form on an electric element in an electric BK of HLT to the point that special all stainless based elements are now made for home brewers yet being concerned over this is silly?

 

[1977Brewer]

Why is it so funny? You dont see a downside of using what could very possibly look like this for brewing water storage? How many people here can honestly tell me they change or even check the Anodes in their water heater tanks? I bet the majority here have never done so. granted this is an extreme case below but still who knows what kind of shape the inside of ones water heater is in?

I didn't even know anodes existed until yesterday. Small sample size, but we're at 0% thus far.

 

[LoneTreeFarms]

i don't see it mentioned here, but anode rods can be cut out of hot water heaters we did it to our new one a few years ago. that being said there's a new brewery opening up near me where the guy is planning on using an all stainless hot water heater for his strike water. I've seen it, but didn't pay too much attention to it. next time I talk to him I can get more of the specifics if anyone is interested.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Why is it so funny? You dont see a downside of using what could very possibly look like this for brewing water storage? How many people here can honestly tell me they change or even check the Anodes in their water heater tanks? I bet the majority here have never done so.

It's funny that people are arguing and name calling over water heaters. I don't think anybody in this thread ever eluded to using your junkyard find to store brew water. In fact, on the first page I replied to the OP that if you get a new water heater I didn't see any problems.

And, yes. There's a huge downside with using the water heater in the picture you provided. There's a big hole in the side. The water won't stay in.

 

[Psylocide]

Steak toaster

 

[Homercidal]

Somebody stole my old water heart and cut a hole in it! Those bastards!

Just kidding. Mine was a gas heater and it created it's own hole.

FYI there was so much accumulation in the thing that I had to pound a screwdriver in to the hole where the drain valve used to be in order to drain the water out before I hauled it out of the basement. It was probably 2-3 inches thick. Turns out all the water had leaked out of it from the big rusty hole in the side.