Water chemistry Primer questions/advice

[ajdelange]

This beer was closer to being good. It had better aroma, but the flavor was not that great. I have also noticed that it is taking a long time for my APA/IPA to clear.

Proper mash pH is a sine qua non but it is not the whole story. 2 ml of lactic acid should have done the job and if you read 5.1 - 5.2 with strips that probably means 5.4 - 5.5 which should be low enough to get you the benefits of proper mash pH. OTOH it could mean 5.1 - 5.2. You just can tell with strips but even if it did that should be fine too. So not sure what you mean by "flavor not that great". Most people who start to control mash pH report that the flavors are "brighter". Another benefit I have noticed is that the beers tend to clear faster - you saw the opposite. Could be a yeast strain thing.

I'd say you probably have mash pH under control and should focus on the other aspects of brewing such as a proper yeast pitch, proper oxygenation, sanitation, fermentation temperature etc. It just takes time and experience before you figure out how to line everything up just so.

It has been noted that the sulfate level you are working with is not typical for IPAs. This shouldn't create a problem. In fact it will probably lead to a better tasting beer but not one with the traditional characteristics associated with this style i.e. it may not be what you are used to. If that is what you mean by the taste not being that great the problem is easily solved. Just add some gypsum next time you brew it.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Now that I've used a meter a few brews I'm finding that the spreadsheets weren't very accurate (something aj has said will often be the case).

Example is a Vienna Lager I just brewed (more or less per this water primer): Mostly Vienna malt with 1/2# Dark Munich plus 2 oz Carafa Special II plus 4 oz (2.4%) sauermalz, SRM = ~11. I used 86% RO and 14% bottled Spring water plus 1.5 tsp CaCl (7 gal treated) and mash pH was 5.47. Some calculators would lead you to believe this water is suitable for a 3-8 SRM beer with NO sauermalz.

Post-boil pH was not much lower @ 5.44 but I assume that's either because the sparge water (pure RO) increased the mash pH a bit or maybe it was the mash-out decoction (aj has mentioned pH creeping upward when using acid malt with decoctions).

 

[-TH-]

Now that I've used a meter a few brews I'm finding that the spreadsheets weren't very accurate (something aj has said will often be the case).

Example is a Vienna Lager I just brewed (more or less per this water primer): Mostly Vienna malt with 1/2# Dark Munich plus 2 oz Carafa Special II plus 4 oz (2.4%) sauermalz, SRM = ~11. I used 86% RO and 14% bottled Spring water plus 1.5 tsp CaCl (7 gal treated) and mash pH was 5.47. Some calculators would lead you to believe this water is suitable for a 3-8 SRM beer with NO sauermalz.

Post-boil pH was not much lower @ 5.44 but I assume that's either because the sparge water (pure RO) increased the mash pH a bit or maybe it was the mash-out decoction (aj has mentioned pH creeping upward when using acid malt with decoctions).

Did you put it in the EZ 2.0? I've had pretty good luck with it so far.

I know for beers with SRM > about 40 things get skewed and I am working on that.

 

[-TH-]

There is no question that mash pH will be lower at higher temperature. I have often thought that an 0.3 shift between room and mash temps was a bit of a stretch but I haven't the heart to shorten the life of an electrode appreciably to test this out but keep considering doing it in the name of better beer.

Maybe we should take up a collection!! I would paypal you a buck or two. This information would be quite valuable I would think.

There is lots of controversy as to what the proper pH range should be. My gut tells me it is 5.4 - 5.5 but there are lots of other ranges published.

Could this be due to the temp factor? i.e. those who shoot for 5.2 are talking about at mash temp where the 5.4-5.5 camp are talking room temp?

 

[ajdelange]

Maybe we should take up a collection!! I would paypal you a buck or two. This information would be quite valuable I would think.

Well thanks for the offer but no need. I'll just take one that is nearing the end of its life anyway.

Could this be due to the temp factor? i.e. those who shoot for 5.2 are talking about at mash temp where the 5.4-5.5 camp are talking room temp?

Little doubt that some of the uncertainty is from the temp factor. Even in the professional literature there is an appallingly common tendency to publish pH figures without specifying the temperature to the extent that the second edition of Brewin Handbook (Stewart et. al.) warns readers about this. Conversely, DeClerck specifically states that all pH values in his book were measured at laboratory temperature. Of course, in his day pH measurement gear was hardly portable.

The other side of the coin is that there is no optimum pH. I carry on a lot here about optimality and optimality criteria (can't have one without the other). WRT mash pH every one is aware that lower pH gives better conversion, brighter runoff.... but lower hops utilization. So if you optimality criterion is heavy on hops utilization you shoot for higher and if it is for mash tun efficiency you shoot for lower. Clearly the optimum pH is ultimately the one that gives you the beer you like best (or scores best in contests or is more authentic or...). That must be determined by experimentation. It's not the same for all beers.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Did you put it in the EZ 2.0? I've had pretty good luck with it so far.

I know for beers with SRM > about 40 things get skewed and I am working on that.

I just tried it and it predicts 5.5 without sauermalz and 5.29 with, but I'm using RO from a grocery store instead of distilled.

 

[SC_Ryan]

I don't have the recipe in front of me, but off the top of my head it was

20 lbs. 2 row
1 lbs Vienna
.75 lbs Cry60
.40 lbs Cry120
4 oz black patent
and I think the rest of the roast malt was 50/50 Pale Chocolate (200 srm) and Chocolate (500 srm)

This was kind of a "leftovers" beer that I brewed last summer and it turned out fantastic. Hopped with Goldings if you are curious.

So I hit a pH of 5.2 (room temp) using the primer for porter/stout with this grain bill. How much Calcium Carbonate would you recommend I add next time to try to get it in the 5-5-5.7 range (room temp)?

 

[ajdelange]

In order to do a calculation I need to have the slope of the titration curve for each malt. Not having that about the best I can do is observe that the slopes for darker malts based on some titrations I did years ago seem to average about 35 mEq/pH-kg in the region around pH 5.2. Thus if you wanted to go from 5.2 to 5.4 you would need 0.2*35 = 7 mEq/kg to offset the dark malts only and a bit more to move the rest of the malt. You have a total of about 1.1 kg dark malts (including the crystal) so you'd need 7.7 mEq alkali. Each 100 mg of CaCO3 supplies about 1.9 mEq in going to pH 5.4 so you would need 100*7.7/1.9 = 405 mg. OTOH 74 mg of Ca(OH)2 (pickling lime) supplies 2 mEq of alkalinity so you could use 74*7.7/2 = 285 mg of that (and not have any bicarbonate in your beer).

These calculations are little better than WAGs as I don't have good information on the buffering capacities (titration curve slopes) for the particular lots of the particular malts you used. Thus you must really determine how much you need by experiment. Weigh out the calculated amount of one or the other of chalk or lime and divide it into three portions. Add one of the portions, check pH and add the second if it is still lower than you want. Do the same with the third.

You must wait several minutes for the alkali to react. I'd expect the pickling lime to react much faster than the chalk because it is more soluble. That, I would think, would be almost as big an advantage as not having bicarbonate in the beer.

 

[SC_Ryan]

So 0.4g of Chalk or 0.28g of pickling lime is potentially enough to move the mash pH from 5.2 to 5.4? That seems like very little. Is it that much per gallon?

 

[ajdelange]

No, that's the amount required to move 1.1 kg of "average" dark malt 0.2 pH points at pH near 5.2. It is the acidity of these grains that this addition is intended to "neutralize". No, it isn't much so be careful you don't overshoot!

 

[kjbatt]

I have recently brewed two IPA's with water adjustments being the only variable. With the first batch I added 5.2 stablizer (my standard practice) and for the second I added 3 tsp of Calcium Chloride, 1.5 tsp Gypsum, and .3 lbs (2%) of Acidulated malt roughly following the recomendations from this thread (I live in McLeansville, NC and my water comes from several different resorvoirs and I cannot get a definite water report but all of the potential reports - Greensboro and Burlington - show pretty soft water). I got a ph meter for Christmas (the Hanna Phep 5 from MoreBeer) and bought some Calcium Chloride, Sauermalt, Gypsum, as well as the necessary ph calibration solution and storage solution.

This was my first time using a ph meter and my mash was at 4.95ph at 152 degrees (the meter claims to have Automatic Temperature Compensation). My effieciency was just under 75%. I usually am between 73-80%.

The first beer will be ready soon and the second is in primary (very active fermentation within 16 hours).

I will gladly report my comparison of taste for the two beers.

My questions:

What are the consequences of low ph? What could I have done to adjust the ph after getting the low reading? Is there anything glaringly wrong with my process?

I recognize that you may need more information for my questions. This is my first time trying to adjust my water.

 

[ajdelange]

You have added a lot of calcium - 3 times the recommendation of the Primer as the chloride and 1.5 times the recommendation for gypsum. The result from this calcium alone would be, in a water of low alkalinity, a drop in pH of 0.36 relative to a distilled water mash pH. Assuming that to be 5.75 you would be at 5.39. Two percent sauermalz would drop it, nominally, a further 0.2 for an estimated pH of 5.19 and that's at room temperature so you might expect, with the temperature dependence of mash pH, another drop of 0.2 at 152 °F which gets you to 4.99 - pretty close to what you measured so things are consistent with our understanding of what to expect. However, your meter is not intended to be used, or even stored above 122 °F. Its thermometer does not even read above 140 °F so, depending on how they apply the ATC algorithm, your measurement could be off quite a bit. Of course there can be quite a bit of variation in the calculation I did as well (because the drops in pH as a function of temperature and of the calcium concentration can be variable depending on water and malt). Nevertheless I am guessing you mash pH was probably OK. I'd be more worried about the meter. I suggest you see if you can get it to take a new calibration. If it can, then it doubtless survived.

So next time if you want to use that much calcium skip the sauermalz or if you can live with less calcium, reduce it and keep the sauermalz. Then be sure to measure mash pH at room temperature. If you find the pH going too low the usual recourse is to sprinkle in and thoroughly mix a small amount of chalk (calicum carbonate), wait a few minutes and check pH again.

 

[jeffmeh]

I have three factors that I wish to explore to better understand this for my particular situation:

1) My source water is pretty "soft", although it does not fall below 20 mg/l for Na and Cl.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 9
Mg: 2
Na: 30
Cl: 42
SO4: 6
HCO3: 14

I would like to avoid diluting with RO. Ajdelange's baseline would have me dilute by a bit more than 50%, but add back in CaCl to move the Cl well over the current 42. If I do not dilute, the real effect is that I would have Na of 30 rather than 15. I do not suspect that that will be discernible, but if anyone wants to chime in, please do.

2) If I want to brew, say, an APA, and I want to increase SO4 for hop bitterness, I could cut back a bit on the CaCl addition and add CaSO4 and MgSO4. With the right proportions given my source water, I can still hit the minimum Ca and Cl for the baseline, stay under 20 ppm for Mg, and bump up the SO4 to say, 110 or so. Not that there is any magic around 110, but is that the right way to think about it?

3) I do full-volume, no sparge, BIAB, so I will typically use 8.25 gallons of water for a 10-12 lb. grain bill. My understanding is that with such a thin mash I can expect my mash pH to run higher, but I have no idea how much higher. I suppose the best way to deal with that is to get a pH meter, shoot for the lower end of the pH range the first time I use it, be ready to add CaCO3 or Sauermalz if I need to adjust, and use the experience to be smarter the next time. I have done plenty of successful BIAB brews, but it looks like it is time to invest in a pH meter to find out what is really going on. Any comments here?

Many thanks.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Water chemistry is one element of brewing I've been neglecting to consider up until now. I'm hoping I can run a few questions past you guys just to make sure I'm understanding things correctly. Here's my current setup out of the tap:

Ca 31
Mg 10
SO4 59
Na 15
Cl 25
HCO3 34

Total hardness = 118
pH 7.8

1. Is there anything this water is good for without alteration? How worrisome is the low level of Ca here?

2. For pale ales and IPAs and such, I'm thinking of adding 1g gypsum per gallon of water, to give me something like this below. Look good? This does make the sulfate level fairly high, especially in relation to everything else (Cl in particular). Should I add anything else to balance?

Ca 92.5
Mg 10
SO4 206
Na 15
Cl 25
HCO3 34

3. I also like to brew a lot of stouts, with a pretty heft amount of roasted grain. My initial thought for these beers is to add 1g CaCO3 per gallon, giving me this below. How does this look?

Ca 137
Mg 10
SO4 59
Na 15
Cl 25
HCO3 195

Bicarbonates still seem a bit low here for a dark stout. I could also use baking soda to up the bicarbonates, but my sulfate level is already high in relation to the sodium level, and I'm guessing I don't want to increase the sodium that much. Any recommendations?

 

[funkswing]

GuldTuborg - I'd say that those water alterations are fine for those listed styles (they aren't "wrong"). Adding/subbing CaCl2 to either of those (pale ale or stout) would help boost some maltiness that may be lacking.

Looking into palmer's Cl:SO4 ratio (sometimes stated as SO4:Cl). The Brew Strong podcast has 4 water alteration ("water-ganza"?) episodes that are worth perusing.

It is said in there to have a minimum Ca conc. of 50ppm for proper fermentation purposes (but I wouldn't get fanatical about it unless you try it and really think it improves your beers, but it will prolly help most of your pale ones).

 

[GuldTuborg]

Thanks. One of the problems I've noticed as a common theme in my brewing is that the body of my beers (regardless of style) always seems to be lighter than what I'd prefer, and what I shoot for. I've read that low calcium can produce beers with thinner bodies, and so part of me is wondering if the calcium element is to blame, if only in part.

I'll listen to the Brew Strong episodes and see if any further tweaking is needed. I'm sure trial and error will be the best way to get things right, but I'd prefer to start closer to, rather than further from, whatever that ideal is. Thanks and I'm open to more suggestions and criticism, should anyone else want to weigh in.

 

[jeffmeh]

So how does this look for an APA on the hoppier side, assuming that I tweak the pH if needed to account for the full-volume, BIAB, no-sparge? Thanks.

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 9
Mg: 2
Na: 30
Cl: 42
SO4: 6
CaCO3: 14

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 8.25 / 0
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 10.5
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.5
Roasted Grain: 0
Beer Color (SRM): 4.5

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 2.5 / 0
CaCl2: 5.5 / 0
MgSO4: 5 / 0
NaHCO3: 0 / 0
NaCl: 0 / 0
CaCO3: 0 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 3.3

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 75 / 75
Mg: 17 / 17
Na: 30 / 30
Cl: 127 / 127
SO4: 113 / 113
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 1.12 / 1.12

Alkalinity (CaCO3): -69
RA: -133
Estimated pH: 5.30

 

[ajdelange]

Looks fine. Your sauermalz percentage is about 2 and given your grain bill your mash pH will, this, probably be closer to 5.75 - 0.2 - 0.08 = 5.47 than 5.3 but that should be OK. Those numbers represent, respectively, estimated distilled water mash pH, the drop from the 2% sauermazl, the drop from calcium and magnesium.

 

[zuesy]

I tasted the first beer I made using the guidelines in this thread. It was an APA, and it came much better than the previous all-tap water version.

Thanks for the primer and yet another number to try and hit on brew day.

Also, fwiw, in cooking a teaspoon is assumed to be 4.2 grams.

 

[jeffmeh]

Looks fine. Your sauermalz percentage is about 2 and given your grain bill your mash pH will, this, probably be closer to 5.75 - 0.2 - 0.08 = 5.47 than 5.3 but that should be OK. Those numbers represent, respectively, estimated distilled water mash pH, the drop from the 2% sauermazl, the drop from calcium and magnesium.

Thanks for the feedback. I have a pH meter on order, and I am very curious to see what I hit. If I oberve 5.47, then I can add sauermalz (2.9 oz to reach 3.7% of grain bill), and lower it to 5.3, correct?

Conceding that the chemistry calculations can get fairly complicated, is the difference between your pH calculation (5.47) and that of the EZ spreadsheet (5.3) mostly a function of my thin mash (3.14 qt/lb)?

 

[ajdelange]

Different models. I use Kolbach's 0.00168 per ppm as CaCO3 residual alkalinity and Weyermann's 0.1 pH per percent of sauermalz in the grist. The EZ calculator uses a more complicated model that attempts to incorporate beer color and malt acidity. You will have to decide which to believe (or you could split the difference if you like) but once the pH meter is in your hands you won't have to believe either because you will know.

Now if you hit 5.47 on brew day I'd say just leave things alone. Yes, you could have some ground sauermalz on hand ready to toss in but 5.47 is pretty respectable. If you really want lower you can increase sauermalz next time. That would make an interesting comparison.

 

[jeffmeh]

Different models. I use Kolbach's 0.00168 per ppm as CaCO3 residual alkalinity and Weyermann's 0.1 pH per percent of sauermalz in the grist. The EZ calculator uses a more complicated model that attempts to incorporate beer color and malt acidity. You will have to decide which to believe (or you could split the difference if you like) but once the pH meter is in your hands you won't have to believe either because you will know.

Now if you hit 5.47 on brew day I'd say just leave things alone. Yes, you could have some ground sauermalz on hand ready to toss in but 5.47 is pretty respectable. If you really want lower you can increase sauermalz next time. That would make an interesting comparison.

Sounds good. It's easy enough to mill some extra sauermalz on the fly, if needed. We shall see. Thanks again.

 

[-TH-]

Different models. I use Kolbach's 0.00168 per ppm as CaCO3 residual alkalinity and Weyermann's 0.1 pH per percent of sauermalz in the grist. The EZ calculator uses a more complicated model that attempts to incorporate beer color and malt acidity. You will have to decide which to believe (or you could split the difference if you like) but once the pH meter is in your hands you won't have to believe either because you will know.

Now if you hit 5.47 on brew day I'd say just leave things alone. Yes, you could have some ground sauermalz on hand ready to toss in but 5.47 is pretty respectable. If you really want lower you can increase sauermalz next time. That would make an interesting comparison.

Is that 5.47 at room temp? Then the pH at mash temp would be what - say 5.3 ish?

 

[Sardoman]

Hey, great thread, everyone! Thank you for partipating in such a wonderful resource!

I was looking at the OP's baseline treatment and it looks like it might not be quite right for my water. I don't doubt the approach, but I am wondering if maybe I have unusual water. Here's what I have and what I am thinking, and you can tell me if I'm way wrong here:

My local treatment plant 2009 averages according to Water Dept.
Ca+2 43ppm
Mg+2 13ppm
Cl- 92ppm
SO4-2 44ppm
Na+2 35ppm
Alk-CaCO3 65

My thought is that chloride is high compared to other things, like Ca, so maybe I should cut my water down to 1/2 or 1/3 with distilled, and then add gypsum rather than CaCl2 to make my baseline. But then it seems I might need some chalk as well for the more mineral-rich beers.

Does this make sense or am I mistaken?

 

[ajdelange]

Your water is a fine candidate for the baseline treatment (not sure what OP means - are you trying to brew something like Old Peculier?). A 2:1 dilution would get the chloride down to 31 and sulfate to 14, sodium to 11 etc. The standard addition of calcium chloride would not lead to excessive chloride (73 mg/L). If you want hoppiness asserted then an addition of some gypsum along with the calcium chloride would be fine.

In general you should not add any chalk unless a mash reading taken with a pH meter shows low pH.

 

[Sardoman]

Oh, thank you for the comments! I will try that. By OP I meant original poster, the very same ajdelange.
I'll invest in a pH meter before I go and buy any chalk.

Cheers!

 

[brybarrett]

quick question, since the weight of a tsp of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride are some what close, Calcium being a little heavier, wouldn't the cloride to sulfate ratio for the general paramters in the beginning of the thread always produce a balanced beer or malt forward beer especially for pale and IPA styles? I would think that is not something you want for those styles of beers, shouldn't it be more toward a bittering ratio? Or since you have a decent amount of sulfate in the water the hops will be more present anyway?

 

[ajdelange]

quick question, since the weight of a tsp of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride are some what close, Calcium being a little heavier, wouldn't the cloride to sulfate ratio for the general paramters in the beginning of the thread always produce a balanced beer or malt forward beer especially for pale and IPA styles? I would think that is not something you want for those styles of beers, shouldn't it be more toward a bittering ratio? Or since you have a decent amount of sulfate in the water the hops will be more present anyway?

If you believe that chloride to sulfate ratio really has an effect on maltiness vs. hoppiness, then yes. Keep in mind that in general where noble varieties of hops are involved the proper chloride to sulfate ratio is infinite i.e. the less sulfate the better whether the beer is one with "stinging" hoppiness (to borrow from David Miller's description of Bohermian Pils) or richly malty as in a Bock. The Primer encourages you to start with very low sulfate and to add sulfate incrementally in subsequent trials until you hit the sulfate level you desire. There is nothing to prevent you from increasing gypsum to any level you like i.e. more than 1 tsp nor from decreasing calcium chloride below 1 tsp. I encourage you to think of the two ions independently. Chloride does not cancel sulfate. It adds roundness, fullness and sweetness to beer. These may make harsh hops from an excess of sulfate more tolerable but if you have overdone the hops in a high sulfate beer adding chloride won't fix it. Conversely, if you are looking for the hops qualities that high sulfate brings, you need to add more sulfate. Reducing chloride will not bring up those hops qualities.

 

[DakotaRules]

I just finished reading this whole thread! Thank you all for so much information.

I had gotten a RO filter this past summer and have been using 100% RO water for my last 2 batches thinking I was making better water and making better beer. The beers came out great but after reading this thread I'm questioning my water.

Calcium: 4.0 ppm
Magnesium" 1.0 ppm
Sodium: 10 ppm
Sulfate: 8.0 ppm
Chloride: 14 ppm
Bicarbonate: 10

I have downloaded the EZ water Chart and will be using it from now on.

Again thank you all for your input.

 

[ajdelange]

If those specs are for your feed water you do not need an RO unit. But if it's for the permeate that's fine too. With the numbers you have the guidelines in the Primer should have you making good beer tout suite.