want to open 3bbl micro in existing family bar/restaurant/resort

[trailsendbrewing]

Hey everyone, long time follower and reader here on HBT. I started brewing about a year ago and went straight to all grain. I am currently working on duplicating a couple recipes that myself and everyone I know enjoys. I have done a lot of reading/research on the legal end and work aspect of starting a nano/micro brewery. I am single with no kids and no loans of any sort. Thinking of a 3 barrel brew system with 4 110 gallon plastic fermentors. I would have one maybe two bright tanks and keg off of them. I would also need floor drains, exhaust hood, tankless hot water heater, sink, walk in cooler, and fermenting chamber. I am good with tools and family members are in construction so the build out would mainly be done by us. Lastly, I am just looking for any thoughts of how to give this the best shot. The resort/bar is very busy from june-september and then again january-march. My mom owns the resort and bar/restaurant. any and all feedback appreciated

 

[Punity]

Probrewer.com holds all answers you seek.

 

[Jmarsh544]

There are many threads in this forum that will point you in the right directions... I would like you to a few if I wasn't on my phone. Search the site and you will find a ton of useful info.

 

[241]

There's been an amazing series of podcasts on the brewing network recently.

They are worth the listen and cover a wide array of topics from financial to distribution: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong

 

[trailsendbrewing]

sounds good, thanks for the replies. I have read many threads and I know id need to get approval federal/state/county or township. My mom would be helping on that end. Im more so asking if we had everything in order and equipment lined up, how hard do you think itd be to break even maybe even be in the green? (profit). We would of course sell all of beer directly to our current customer base. There is a possibility that one maybe two bars in our close area would put a keg on tap as well.

 

[WissahickonBrew]

1. Thank your mom for what sounds like tremendous support.
2. Many new businesses do not make a profit for the first 5 years so be prepared to lose money for a while.
3. Brewing in your garage for a year is not a lot of experience / education. Maybe consider a professional / technical training experience offered by beer schools (google).
4. Go for it!

 

[trailsendbrewing]

Brewfist- you say to be prepared to lose money for the first few years, I think it'd be possible to break even. I would aim to sell one barrel every week. Each barrel is roughly worth $1000. If it did work out to a barrel/week thatd be roughly $4000/month. I was thinking of having one or two beers that are a bit more cost effective to brew always on tap. I think the cost of a 3 barrel batch would be around 175-250 depending on style. Even at 300-350 theres still money left for equipment, grains, hops, and maintaining everything. Im just looking for advice and any input people have with a situation like this.

 

[Doctor_M]

There's been an amazing series of podcasts on the brewing network recently.

They are worth the listen and cover a wide array of topics from financial to distribution: http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong

^^^

This...

And in my honest opinion you have a better shot then most do, however I'm curious as to what makes you think your beer is good enough to market? You said your working on duplicating some recipes that you and everyone else you know enjoys, and I'm not saying your beer isn't good but just because friends and family all say your FREE beer is good shouldn't be the lone reason why you think you can make it. With that being said you are in a much better position then most to actually pursue a venture like this. Good luck brother!

 

[dkmitg]

Not to be a debbie downer but I feel like one year isn't enough time to have a product that you can make consistently that is something people would want to buy. Ive been brewing for 3 years and if I had the opportunity I would still probably wait awhile to hone my craft.

On the other hand if your in a town with little local craft beer places you can do well. I just moved from a city where a brew pub popped up and was doing killer business even though the beers were quite bland and they even sold some batches that tasted wayyy off.

either way good luck

 

[WissahickonBrew]

The taste of the beer has no bearing on whether the brewery will be a success. The key is effective marketing, plain and simple. The best examples of the truth in this statement are Budweiser and Coors.

The OP has a tremendous advantage over the average Joe just trying to get started from scratch. From his own account he has a family connection to an existing customer base built into an established business. I'll guess the family will also share their business acumen to ensure his success.

The rough calculations might be all that's needed to predict success, but we don't know the details of overhead costs including rent, taxes, payroll, insurance, repairs, maintenance, etc.

I say GO FOR IT!

 

[Calichusetts]

The taste of the beer has no bearing on whether the brewery will be a success. The key is effective marketing, plain and simple. The best examples of the truth in this statement are Budweiser and Coors.

Yes and no...Coors and Bud are selling the taste of a light lager/american pilsner. Its tastes how it should, and they do it with repeated precision. Its just that most CRAFT drinkers prefer other more flavorful styles. The majority of American beer buyers prefer a light, crisp, easy drinking beer.

Their marketing takes care of the rest. Palettes are changing but craft beer drinkers are still in the minority.

 

[trailsendbrewing]

the overhead costs are the normal licenses/fees, insurance, taxes, kettles, plastic fermentors for now, walk in cooler (used), kegs, and a brite tank. The rent will be free since it would be in a current game room area of the bar that is useless. To be honest I have had some pretty boring not so flavorful beers at breweries in the past. Ive duplicated a few of my beers and i dont think the average joe who enjoys craft beer would hardly be able to tell. Again, the post is more so to get everyones ideas to this whole idea/thought. The main reason I came up with this idea is because all the beer is sold to our customers. Ive done a lot of reading and it seems to me if your willing to work your butt of, make little to no money, have no family/kids, and can make good beer go for it.

Brewfist- i love the idea of GO FOR IT! I also would like as many advantages on my side as possible if this were to happen.

 

[tootal]

If you watch the old Brewing TV podcast you'll find an interview with Peter from Worth Brewing. He runs a nano brewery with a ten gallon Sabco Brew Magic. He owns the building, lives upstairs and it only cost $200.00 a year for a brewing license in Iowa. He sells every drop he makes but he explains that you can't have any overhead to make a profit. I went there and saw his set up. He has 6 24 gallon fermentors.( Or something close) He has a lager room and an ale room. There are two casino's seven miles away that want his beer but he sells all he makes now with no room for more production. It's doable as long as you don't have any debt or overhead. Oh, his beers were worth the trip! It's really small, the bar has two stools!

 

[trailsendbrewing]

awesome, I'll check that out!

 

[TheJasonT]

3BBL is a good size to start at for the scale you describe. However, I caution you that it may be too small.

Get a business plan together. Answer a few questions...

1) What's your sales model? Divide up each batch into percentages and get rough estimates of how much will be sold where as how. For example, in mine, I have my breakdown in year one as 75% through the restaurant, 15% through growlers, and 10% distributed, on a 7bbl system.

2) What are your costs? Try to think of EVERYTHING. There's a lot of it. ProBrewer will help tremendously here.

3) How will you market your restaurant now with the addition of a brewery? Think outside the box on this one.

There's a lot to think about. I recommend getting a LOT of quotes from various manufacturers. If you can afford them, definitely go stainless steel and glycol cooled for your fermenters. Make it easy to work smart and produce consistent beer. Essentially, design your brewhouse so that it does most of the work for you.

Let me know if you have questions, I'll do my best to help!

 

[WissahickonBrew]

There's another thread on here where the OP describes his step by step adventure with opening a brewery, in real time. Fascinating, in depth and informative. I think the brewery is in New England?

It's several pages long, but worth the time to read it thoroughly!

I stand by my earlier remark about popularity vs. taste. I've read various accounts on this subject, and listened to respected leaders in the industry. Effective marketing induces consumers to act in a certain way that benefits the marketer, irrespective to the benefit to the consumer. Without the mega million dollar ad campaigns, sponsorship deals and the like, the beer giants of the world like Bud would not be as popular as they are, it has NOTHING to do with the taste of the product. No one in the craft brew world regards Coors, Bud, Rolling Rock or the like as in the same league as Dogfish Head, Oskar Blues, Rogue, etc. That's not to say the beer giants do not have fans for their taste, but it's a group that is diminishing and the market is correcting itself. My father in his 80's will choose a Bud over Stone IPA every time, in fact he doesn't understand why anyone would drink that stuff with the monkey/monster on the bottle! We may not see all of the NFL games on Sunday sponsored by Yards Brewing this year, but it will happen at some point. Another tremendous marketing advantage the giants have that directly results in huge sales is pouring rights. Most of the large sports and entertainment venues across America have binding contractual agreements that no other beer can be served to the hundreds of thousands of patrons attending the events.

The basic rule for success is to be one of three things, and then you have a chance: Be the FIRST; Be the CHEAPEST; or BE UNIQUE. Identify your brand (your beer / brewpub) as one of these and beat it to death. Switch between these values as necessary to keep your approach fresh, but stay true to your plan.

 

[WissahickonBrew]

If readily available, I would GREATLY appreciate a link to this!!!

If you watch the old Brewing TV podcast you'll find an interview with Peter from Worth Brewing. He runs a nano brewery with a ten gallon Sabco Brew Magic. He owns the building, lives upstairs and it only cost $200.00 a year for a brewing license in Iowa. He sells every drop he makes but he explains that you can't have any overhead to make a profit. I went there and saw his set up. He has 6 24 gallon fermentors.( Or something close) He has a lager room and an ale room. There are two casino's seven miles away that want his beer but he sells all he makes now with no room for more production. It's doable as long as you don't have any debt or overhead. Oh, his beers were worth the trip! It's really small, the bar has two stools!

 

[trailsendbrewing]

Very true about marketing. Since college I've drank 3 beers really, Old Milwaukee, Michgolden, and Bud. One day after trying many small craft brews I decided I was done drinking that crap and bought my first kit. One main reason I think people drink so much of the BMC is because it's a consistent cheap product that most people drink. I think it's true to say that most people are or will be all for craft brewing once they've had it or heard more about our thoughts and beliefs on it. Why shouldn't small brewers be able to sell out of their beer each month if its just as good or better than BMC? It's not that much more per oz to have a good/great beer in a bar vs the regular sometimes flat and boring BMC. I really do agree on getting your name and beer out and marketed. Having people talk about your beer in a good way can't be beat.

 

[boscobeans]

What are the demographics of you restaurant's customer base? Young trendy? Older more traditional? Look at what age groups are buying what styles of beer. No sense brewing a decent brown session ale if your customer base tend to like Bud Light.

I prefer having a really flavorful brown ale that tends to be on the low end as far as ABV and carbonation when I'm out having a full meal, but that is just my taste.

Study the client base and try a few recipes that may go over well. Remember going from 5 to 100 gallons in a fermenter may not be as simple as just multiplying the initial recipe by 20. There are other factors involved. Make sure you are very accurate as far as weights, grain bill, temperature, timing and method so that when you hit on a good brew you can repeat it.

Best of luck in your venture.

bosco

 

[smcinco]

The basic rule for success is to be one of three things, and then you have a chance: Be the FIRST; Be the CHEAPEST; or BE UNIQUE. Identify your brand (your beer / brewpub) as one of these and beat it to death. Switch between these values as necessary to keep your approach fresh, but stay true to your plan.

Solid advice.

 

[beerkench]

Go for it! A good brewery manufacturer should be able to set you up with some recipes to get you started so lack of experience won't matter too much.

 

[boscobeans]

Go for it! A good brewery manufacturer should be able to set you up with some recipes to get you started so lack of experience won't matter too much.

I bet if you give ten brewers the same recipe and let them go at it with their own methods there would be some good beers, some bad and even maybe one or two that weren't good at all.

I think even the most experienced brewers on this forum have run into problems when trying to duplicate a brew even with the exact same recipe.
Subtle changes in any aspect of the entire process will often change the beer.

My own experiences have shown me that over the years the same recipe will yield slight differences in my beers.

bosco

 

[trailsendbrewing]

Although I'd like to try to duplicate them very close each brew, it's not a big deal if I don't. Just have to explain to the customer that change in taste, color, texture. I've made many recipes without even looking on beersmith or anything and they've all turned out very well. I think yeast pitching and temp control play huge rolls. Cold crashing had also helped

 

[beerkench]

I bet if you give ten brewers the same recipe and let them go at it with their own methods there would be some good beers, some bad and even maybe one or two that weren't good at all.

I think even the most experienced brewers on this forum have run into problems when trying to duplicate a brew even with the exact same recipe.
Subtle changes in any aspect of the entire process will often change the beer.

My own experiences have shown me that over the years the same recipe will yield slight differences in my beers.

bosco

Maybe there would be differences but as long as you are consistent with your own versions of the recipes then people will buy the beer. Brewery manufacturers should be able to offer other advice as well and help get you started. If you are then brewing the same recipes day in day out you're soon gonna learn what works. I am only saying as I know somebody who has recently started a microbrewery without much experience and he's doing well. I know too that he got help, advice and some start up recipes from the brewery
makers.
Most brew pub customers are likely to be joe public who like good beer and not craft brew experts.

 

[Demon]

Maybe there would be differences but as long as you are consistent with your own versions of the recipes then people will buy the beer. Brewery manufacturers should be able to offer other advice as well and help get you started. If you are then brewing the same recipes day in day out you're soon gonna learn what works. I am only saying as I know somebody who has recently started a microbrewery without much experience and he's doing well. I know too that he got help, advice and some start up recipes from the brewery
makers.
Most brew pub customers are likely to be joe public who like good beer and not craft brew experts.

This may sound harsh, but this is terrible advice. If you can't put together a recipe, you shouldn't be brewing beer commercially. With a thought process like this the business will absolutely fail. The whole concept of willingly putting out mediocre beer because "joe public" won't know has got to be the worst mindset I have ever seen a brewery start with.

Consistency is king. If you can't replicate your beers then you either don't have a full understanding of all the different aspects of the process, or don't have the proper equipment to control the process. Either way is bad, and your customers will notice. Will they say the beer is bad? Probably not to your face, but they certainly won't come back.

That's the reality of it. Brewing is a business, and just like any other business, you have to be at the top of your game to succeed. Can you open a brewpub with mediocre beers? Sure, but you will likely never see enough income to actually pay yourself.

 

[boscobeans]

The whole concept of willingly putting out mediocre beer because "joe public" won't know has got to be the worst mindset I have ever seen a brewery start with.

Consistency is king. Can you open a brewpub with mediocre beers? Sure, but you will likely never see enough income to actually pay yourself.

If you open a Brew Pub or Restaurant selling its own brews your customers will come back if they like what you serve. If I came back in three weeks and ordered a dish or a beer that I loved on my last visit and you tell me that the taste, color or texture might be different, wow! Sounds like some form of food or beverage roulette to me.

I might be just "Joe Public" to the owner but I know what I like and frequent places that can fill the bill.

This all depends on what type of place you plan on operating. Buck a pop tacos and dogs with hit and miss brew or good steaks and seafood with mugs of tasty reliable beers.

Only saying

bosco

 

[beerkench]

This may sound harsh, but this is terrible advice. If you can't put together a recipe, you shouldn't be brewing beer commercially. With a thought process like this the business will absolutely fail. The whole concept of willingly putting out mediocre beer because "joe public" won't know has got to be the worst mindset I have ever seen a brewery start with.

Consistency is king. If you can't replicate your beers then you either don't have a full understanding of all the different aspects of the process, or don't have the proper equipment to control the process. Either way is bad, and your customers will notice. Will they say the beer is bad? Probably not to your face, but they certainly won't come back.

That's the reality of it. Brewing is a business, and just like any other business, you have to be at the top of your game to succeed. Can you open a brewpub with mediocre beers? Sure, but you will likely never see enough income to actually pay yourself.

Where in my post did I write that it's ok to be inconsistent?
I compare brewing to cooking food. You don't necessarily have to design the recipe to make a good meal.
Get some pro help in getting some recipes that work with your brewery and as long as you're consistent in the production of them, you should be fine.
Then if your business grows you could employ a brewer why you concentrate on the other aspect.

 

[trailsendbrewing]

I would never ask someone to give me or help formulate recipes, thats crazy. Why would you like to go to the same brewery and drink the same beer all of the time? isn't the purpose to try new and different tasting beers?

 

[boscobeans]

I would never ask someone to give me or help formulate recipes, thats crazy. Why would you like to go to the same brewery and drink the same beer all of the time? isn't the purpose to try new and different tasting beers?

True, variety is the spice of life, however there is something to say about putting on a well worn, well broken in pair of shoes.

There are thousands of restaurants, pizza places and steak houses that have the same customers returning for 40 or fifty years who want to eat the same food made the same exact way each time. They line up in the street to get a pizza or wait weeks if not longer for a steak dinner.

Bud, Miller, Coors and Sam Adams are examples of beers that have loyalty bases that have lasted and will last for years into the future.

Sure it is good to always try something new... TRY is the key word and most if not all good restaurants and breweries do try, however they almost never abandon the basic products that gave them a following.

Give away a few samples of a new brew or food product that you may want to introduce to feel it out, but always keep those items on the menu or those brews on tap that bring em back week after week. No reason not to expand your selections, but always have the old stand by's for those who want them.

OMO

bosco

 

[trailsendbrewing]

boscobeans- very good advice here!