Vorlauf help! Horrible tannin from the BK

[Geigon]

So you had this same astringency in one of your extract brews? From your descriptions so far this sounds like something unrelated to your vorlaufing (or your have a couple of different things going on). The high pH of your mash prior to the correction could extract tannins, but again I would expect that to be evident in the pre-boil taste. Given that this occurred in both an extract brew and an all grain brew I'd look for something in your boiling process/equipment. And it's not a metallic taste. Right?

 

[TheSlash]

So you had this same astringency in one of your extract brews? From your descriptions so far this sounds like something unrelated to your vorlaufing (or your have a couple of different things going on). The high pH of your mash prior to the correction could extract tannins, but again I would expect that to be evident in the pre-boil taste. Given that this occurred in both an extract brew and an all grain brew I'd look for something in your boiling process/equipment. And it's not a metallic taste. Right?

I'm thinking in my extract brew I steeped my grains for like 90 minutes... so relating the taste I get to a grain tannin flavor. My extract used totally different equipment. The only common thing is my wort chiller really...

Plan on doing the centennial recipe again sat and will taste the wort after it boils for 45 minutes, then also after flame out then once again after cooling. I should be able to rule out the coil.

 

[TheSlash]

After even more reading it seems a lot of people don't even vorlauf and some deco, so maybe I'm back to looking at my sparge and copper IC?

So sick of all the RDWHAHB whatev!!! I can't they all suck! lol

 

[Homercidal]

Honestly, if your sure your pH was in the right range during the whole sparge process, then I'd look at your water make up. Everything else you've said probably wouldn't cause more than a very slight astringency if at all.

But your water may affect how the hops are perceived, even if the water itself doesn't taste very unusual.

I've vorlaufed and I've skipped it either on purpose or on accident, and other than adding a small amount of protein in the kettle, I doubt it had any real flavor impact on the beer.

 

[luke2080]

Slash - on your next batch, take some samples during the boil, and post-boil but pre-chilled like you are saying. But, I'd take the next step and vorlauf better. On of the brewing rules is to vorlauf so as to not get grain husks in the boil, which will extract tannins. I've had a few husks in the boil, but we are talking 1/4 of a handfull. The way you keep describing it, lots of pieces are flowing through.

So in that respect, I'd get a new braid. (Go a step further, braids suck, build a copper manifold. I did it with some copper tubing, some copper elbows, and an angle grinder to cut slits)

At least this way you can reliably test multiple steps on one batch.

Personally, I suspect your water is out of whack. A lot more to the water then pH. And I won't pretend I know what I'm talking about on the topic. But if your Mg, Na, etc are far out of line, it can cause extreme bitterness and off flavors. I know you've different waters, and I wouldn't change your water habits in the next batch if you don't think thats it (too many variables changing) but if you still get the taste next time, buy 10 gallons of distilled water, then brew.

Good luck to you.

 

[TheSlash]

Slash - on your next batch, take some samples during the boil, and post-boil but pre-chilled like you are saying. But, I'd take the next step and vorlauf better. On of the brewing rules is to vorlauf so as to not get grain husks in the boil, which will extract tannins. I've had a few husks in the boil, but we are talking 1/4 of a handfull. The way you keep describing it, lots of pieces are flowing through.

So in that respect, I'd get a new braid. (Go a step further, braids suck, build a copper manifold. I did it with some copper tubing, some copper elbows, and an angle grinder to cut slits)

At least this way you can reliably test multiple steps on one batch.

Personally, I suspect your water is out of whack. A lot more to the water then pH. And I won't pretend I know what I'm talking about on the topic. But if your Mg, Na, etc are far out of line, it can cause extreme bitterness and off flavors. I know you've different waters, and I wouldn't change your water habits in the next batch if you don't think thats it (too many variables changing) but if you still get the taste next time, buy 10 gallons of distilled water, then brew.

Good luck to you.

That is plan number 1. Taste EVERY step of the way, all through the boil etc.
I have a hard time believing it is the water just because I have used multiple types and they have the exact same astringency. I'm picking up a nice PH meter for this weekends brew, that should help on that front.

What would happen if I did an all grain with distilled?? Assuming would taste bland, but might tell me if PH was the issue right? If it comes to that

Thanks for the tips. I think I'll also make a copper manifold, I always assumed the braid would be a finer filter, but learning it's the grain that makes the filter. Plus I wont knock a manifold around.

 

[Denny]

What would happen if I did an all grain with distilled?? Assuming would taste bland, but might tell me if PH was the issue right? If it comes to that

You don't want to use distilled water for AG brewing. It lacks the minerals the yeast need for health and the wort needs for beer flavor. In addition, it won't guarantee you a proper pH. You need to work through this methodically, changing only one thing at a time.

 

[metal850]

Honestly, if your sure your pH was in the right range during the whole sparge process, then I'd look at your water make up. Everything else you've said probably wouldn't cause more than a very slight astringency if at all.

But your water may affect how the hops are perceived, even if the water itself doesn't taste very unusual.

I've vorlaufed and I've skipped it either on purpose or on accident, and other than adding a small amount of protein in the kettle, I doubt it had any real flavor impact on the beer.

+1

Could it be a result of very high sulfates affecting the perception of hop bitterness? Seems like it's a boil problme so my first guess would be hops. Do you have the profile for the water you use for brewing? It seems like it might not be very good brewing water considering you initial ph is 6-7.

 

[bob1852]

AZ IPA... You said this 2 years ago
"I forgot to vorlauf an IPA - tasted great to me; but in a contest all 3 BJCP judge noted astringency. I couldn't detect it, but they could -- not saying that it was the result of not vorlaufing, but it could have been.

oh, extreme Coleman MLT with SS braid...."

LOL

Nice find!

(but I did isolate the problem as water, not not vorlaufing. )

 

[Homercidal]

You could vorlauf longer/better and it certainly wont' hurt the beer. However, a having grain husk in the boil isn't necessarily going to give you tannins, if we believe brewing history where German brewers use decoction mashing as the ONLY way to brew.

Portions of the thick mash are boiled and added back to the mash tun. Grains and all. The difference is that the pH of the boiling grains is fairly low.

Also consider that you will have an almost microscopic amount of husk in your wort if you do even a small vorlauf. I'm talking a few pieces.

In the interest of getting to the bottom of this, I suggest looking elsewhere for what you describe as an astringency. My bet is on the water.

 

[TheSlash]

Agree. Seems odd I've used 3 types of water though.. Charcoal filtered tap, bottled spring in gallon jugs, and bottle spring from diff company in 5 gal jugs... I'll update this after my next brew...

 

[bob1852]

Agree. Seems odd I've used 3 types of water though.. Charcoal filtered tap, bottled spring in gallon jugs, and bottle spring from diff company in 5 gal jugs... I'll update this after my next brew...

Those could very well all be the equivalent of charcoal filtered tap....a lot of water sold as "spring" water says on the label that it's basically filtered tap water that may have originated from a spring at some point.

 

[Mysticmead]

Those could very well all be the equivalent of charcoal filtered tap....a lot of water sold as "spring" water says on the label that it's basically filtered tap water that may have originated from a spring at some point.

yep... Coca-Cola's Dasani water is just filtered Atlanta tap water.. Pepsi Aquafina is filtered tap water and those are just the big names.. the discount water you get at the grocery store or at walmart or a bulk buy store.. most likely filtered tap water. Even is its not tap water, that doesn't mean it's any better. At least tap water is controlled by the EPA and tested several times a day.. bottled water is controlled as food and by the FDA.. they test once a week. Distilled water or RO water that is built up by the brewer will be the only way to be sure that the water is correct for brewing. for a little reading on bottled water check http://www.allaboutwater.org/tap-water.html

 

[TheSlash]

Interesting! I've seen so much about building distilled or RO up for the specific recipe, but never anywhere giving exact examples. Seems like building distilled up would be cake if people actually said what to do. Is there a spreadsheet or a way in BS2 to do this fast? Like say I'm making an APA, so add this much of this and that and this and go?

Don't most people say if your water tastes fine, brew with it? How can I be so unlucky hehe.

 

[wittmania]

My bet is it is your copper. If it goes in a little dull and comes out shiny, that oxidation will be in your beer. Try soaking the chiller in starsan for 30 min prior to adding it to your boil. It will be shiny before and after, meaning you aren't putting oxidized copper onto your homebrew. For extra credit, stick a piece of copper in your mouth for 30 seconds and see if the taste is similar to the off flavor in your beer.

 

[beesy]

One thing you could try after vorlaufing is to place one of those really fine mesh straining bags over your tubing in the bottle of your collecting vessel. It will get all the small particles that may be getting through your braid.

 

[Mysticmead]

Interesting! I've seen so much about building distilled or RO up for the specific recipe, but never anywhere giving exact examples. Seems like building distilled up would be cake if people actually said what to do. Is there a spreadsheet or a way in BS2 to do this fast? Like say I'm making an APA, so add this much of this and that and this and go?

Don't most people say if your water tastes fine, brew with it? How can I be so unlucky hehe.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/ check the stickies...

yes generally, if you water tastes good it will make good beer. As you have seen, that's not always true.. personally, I think it's something other than the water. the chiller might be the cause, but until you eliminate the water that's what it will point too.

 

[TheSlash]

Thanks. My chiller went in my first beer shiny new and came out dull, but that beer didn't have much of this astringent. Every beer since the chiller never gets shiny.. I accidentally let it soak in starsan for like a month though. Although I had the astringent before that ever happened...

Easier to test water then to buy a chiller so I'll start there. I don't want to try too many things at once, but I'm getting discouraged making bad beer!

Thanks for all the helps. Reading those stickies.

 

[headfullahops]

It's very interesting to me that we in the homebrew community have made so much of the "don't let the temp of your mash go over 170˚F or you will extract severe tannin astringency from the husk material" rule. Yet, Germans have been boiling their mash for centuries. I do decoction mashes on my Hefe/Dunkelweizens and have never gotten a tannic/astringent character in the wort or the finished product. I highly doubt that any material that makes i from your mash into the kettle will have any profound effect on your finished wort. I have never really paid much attention to my mash pH, so I can't say from experience, but that would probably be the first place I would look in a situation like that. Kai Troester has done some pretty extensive research into the effects of mash pH. He has an entire section of his website devoted to it and has been on Basic Brewing Radio March 17th & 24th, 2011 discussing the topic.

I would definitely suggest that you vourlaf more than a quart. I have a half gallon pitcher that I use to vourlaf and it usually takes two (or more) of those to get decent runnings. Also, I don't think "clear runnings" means that the runoff is completely transparent. It means clear of grain/husk material.

Just as an aside, the term vourlaf means to recirculate the wort from the bottom of the tun to the top to set the grain bed and allow the grain bed to filter out the grain/husk material from the first couple quarts of runnings. When you transfer to the kettle, that is technically called lautering.

 

[bobbytuck]

Interesting! I've seen so much about building distilled or RO up for the specific recipe, but never anywhere giving exact examples. Seems like building distilled up would be cake if people actually said what to do. Is there a spreadsheet or a way in BS2 to do this fast? Like say I'm making an APA, so add this much of this and that and this and go?

Don't most people say if your water tastes fine, brew with it? How can I be so unlucky hehe.

There's a wealth of pale ale water targets here and searchable via Google, but if you're especially interested in pale ales -- APAs, IPAs, PAs -- then the best reference is Terry Foster's book, 'Pale Ale.' He gives a massive amount of context about the style but also a variety of recipes -- including water profiles. He uses ranges for the suggested salt additions -- which make the most sense given the variability of profiles and the inability to hit exact targets -- for each recipe in the book.

Great book. Inexpensive. Highly recommended.

 

[Mysticmead]

It's very interesting to me that we in the homebrew community have made so much of the "don't let the temp of your mash go over 170˚F or you will extract severe tannin astringency from the husk material" rule. Yet, Germans have been boiling their mash for centuries. I do decoction mashes on my Hefe/Dunkelweizens and have never gotten a tannic/astringent character in the wort or the finished product.

correct... tannin extraction is not caused by temp alone. it is also not caused by pressure (in BIAB we squeeze the bag with no ill effect). However, temp and PH combined (mostly the PH) can cause the tannin extraction. When you boil the grains in a decoction, you are boiling the thickest part of the mash and the PH doesn't come into play during the boil. That's why there's no tannin extraction in a decoction mash.

 

[Minky]

Hey Slash,
At the risk of getting flamed, I still think you're dealing with excessive bitterness from hops. I know you're a hophead (I am too!), but highly hopped beers get that delicious flavor and aroma from the later additions. Could you be adding too many hops at the beginning of the boil? I only ask because my initial attempts at hoppy beers were ruined by a horrible taste which sounds very much like what you are describing. It was due to me dumping too much hops in at the beginning of the boil.
OK, I'll shutup now!!

 

[HatchetJack]

I think Minky is right. I doubt it's the copper or the water or the grains ect..
This thread caught my eye because some of my brews have an annoying
bitter finish. I think I have solved my issue by avoiding Notty and moving
my hop boil to 30/ 40 minutes and picking up my IBU's from later additions.
I have brewed around 70 batches and for whatever reason, water maybe?
Any that were fermented with Notty or Coopers and having a reasonably
high hop bill came out dry and bitter. I started using saaz and similar low aa
hops for bittering and using more late additions along with US 05, 04 and
WB 06 and T-58 and it went away.

 

[Denny]

Both of those yeasts are noted as having a tart character. I think that's much more responsible than the hops.

 

[TheSlash]

I've only used notty once. My previous ones I used starters from WL.

I follow recipes... So doubt it is the hops.. The centennial recipe used under 2 ounces. Was only a mid 20 IBU beer and was probably the most astringent.

Maybe the water profile changes things...

 

[Homercidal]

I've only used notty once. My previous ones I used starters from WL.

I follow recipes... So doubt it is the hops.. The centennial recipe used under 2 ounces. Was only a mid 20 IBU beer and was probably the most astringent.

Maybe the water profile changes things...

Yes, it does.

 

[bobbytuck]

I follow recipes... So doubt it is the hops.. The centennial recipe used under 2 ounces. Was only a mid 20 IBU beer and was probably the most astringent.

Maybe the water profile changes things...

It changes massive things. Before I started messing with my water, I was not able to make pale ales or anything lighter than around 10 SRM. There was no hop character in any of my beers -- pale or dark. I compensated by adding more hops, but the character never seemed right.

Last summer I read the water primer here and started with small amounts -- 2, 3 gram BK additions -- and the hops suddenly popped. And when I say popped, I mean *popped*. They really came through.

I figured out my water numbers (Chicago / Lake Michigan water) and spent time reading through every forum posting about water I could find and then stumbled on measuring pH -- and realizing how pH is critical not only to the overall taste but also to proper attenuation.

I bought a pH meter from MoreBeer and the necessary calibration solutions. It was the best purchase I've made in my three years of all grain brewing. My beers went from dull, hop-less, somewhat malty to bright, hoppy, and balanced. The water analysis plus the pH meter was really the key for me since my water is low in sulfate. So for me -- with my filtered water -- I was never able to achieve the hoppy levels I wanted -- even if I followed the recipes or doubled-up.

Now, I balance out the gypsum and CaCl2 based on the recipe and aim for a 5.2-5.3 pH (with 50-100 ppm of calcium for the yeast). I use acidulated malt with lighter beers to bring down the pH and treat my sparge with phosphoric acid. Attenuation is better, too. The yeasties like the optimal pH. And -- best of all -- I can ditch the Fivestar 5.2 buffer (which never worked for me -- or at least didn't seem to make a difference with my water.)

I say all this because even if you follow recipes and hit the exact numbers hop-wise, you might never get the bright, hoppy beers you're looking for without minimal water tweaks and an optimal pH -- especially for pale ales.

 

[Maxkling]

Ive used both spring water and tap water. The best beers I have made were with my tap water.

Water is the easiest and cheapest thing to experiment with, so why not.

Do some one gallon batches until you find your hidden enemy. Hell you can do it all in one day. Use a simple recipe and just each batch do something different. Just stove top it.

 

[TheSlash]

Ive used both spring water and tap water. The best beers I have made were with my tap water.

Water is the easiest and cheapest thing to experiment with, so why not.

Do some one gallon batches until you find your hidden enemy. Hell you can do it all in one day. Use a simple recipe and just each batch do something different. Just stove top it.

That is a great Idea! Maybe I'll build a true micro brewery with a little 1 gallon MT and all hehe. Interesting your tap was better... lucky lucky.

 

[BeerLogic]

I'm still thinking, as I posted before, that your problem is the PH during the sparge process. Just because you got the PH down to an acceptable range during the mash doesn't mean it's going to stay there during the sparge, especially since you are using using very hard water. If your PH is 6 to 7 with the grain in the mash, I'm guessing your water PH is up near the legal limit of 9. Adding a very large sparge volume at a very high PH to your mash will easily ramp the PH up. Among other things, you might try treating the sparge water, too.