Very Low Efficiency. Please Help!

[peterj]

One other thing to consider; if you are adding water to bring temperature up, you are throwing off your water/grain ratio which will also have a negative impact on efficiency.

This was another spam post. Copied from #3 of this thread.

But I think we covered the topic earlier. It's not a problem.

 

[grevengrevs]

Milling my own grains helped my efficiency a lot.

 

[chubby]

I quit using my hydrometer for my one gallon batches and got a refractometer. It was supposed to be a double IPA with a target OG of 1.075, but I ended up with an OG of 1.057. I ended up with an IPA instead, lol.

I'm at a loss. This is my 5th all grain 1 gallon batch. I've made several revisions to equipment and process and nothing has been the cure all. I've done everything I know how from a process standpoint.

-Longer Mash (100 mins)
-Higher Mash Temps (154)
-Built water profile
-Cooler sized for 1 gal batch (3 gal)
-1.5-2 Qts per lb for mash

About the only thing I can figure at this point is my measurements may be off or I screwed up enzyme activity by adding too hot water to try to bring up mash temps a little. I stirred as I added and the temp of mash only reached 154. Crush isn't perfect, but longer mash times should have offset that...

 

[chubby]

Milling my own grains helped my efficiency a lot.

That's about the only dang thing I'm not doing yet. Earlier in the thread I posted a pic of my grain crush. I extended the mash time to 1 hr 40 mins to offset this.

What were your numbers before and after doing your own crush? I'd just like to be around 72% efficiency. 30's to low 50% just seems like I'm doing something wrong....

 

[peterj]

Longer mash times won't offset a bad crush. If you have whole grains in there, letting them soak longer still won't allow the starches to get out and be converted to sugar.

 

[chubby]

Longer mash times won't offset a bad crush. If you have whole grains in there, letting them soak longer still won't allow the starches to get out and be converted to sugar.

Yeah, I had some whole grains still. Someone had made a suggestion to mash longer. I guess I was thinking if the grains were at least cracked a longer mash might help.

I looked at the crusher at the store where I get my supplies. The rollers didn't seem to be adjustable. The bearings on each end were in a solid block of aluminum. I think a credit card would have easily fit through the gap. Next time I'll ask if they can adjust it though. Or maybe run them through twice? I'd like to make sure I'm not the 'problem' before I go asking them to look at their process.

 

[stpug]

Change one variable next time. This time it's "the crush" - nothing else.

Aim for a lowish gravity so the grains cost <$4. Mash as normal. Collect accurate preboil volumes and preboil gravities. If you achieve a reasonable gravity then continue on with your brewday. If you fall well short of your preboil gravity then scrap this batch and cut your brewday short (save your effort, time, and hops for next batch); then look at another variable to change on your next batch.

As for the crush, have your LHBS run it through twice for you. Then come home and run it through your blender at 1/4-1/2 lb increments using a pulsing just to ensure you really break it down and end up with fairly small pieces and flour (your grainbag should contain most of it, so no worries). See how this works out in terms of gravity.

As for doughing in, get your strike water where it needs to be and pour your grain into it while stirring (greenbay rackers calculator works exceptionally well). With only a pound or two of grain this should take no more than 10 seconds to get all of the grain in there. Stir it up well and check your mash temp. If you're a little high or a little low, no worries, that can be fixed on future batches because this batch is about reasonable efficiency.

 

[chubby]

Change one variable next time. This time it's "the crush" - nothing else.

Aim for a lowish gravity so the grains cost <$4. Mash as normal. Collect accurate preboil volumes and preboil gravities. If you achieve a reasonable gravity then continue on with your brewday. If you fall well short of your preboil gravity then scrap this batch and cut your brewday short (save your effort, time, and hops for next batch); then look at another variable to change on your next batch.

As for the crush, have your LHBS run it through twice for you. Then come home and run it through your blender at 1/4-1/2 lb increments using a pulsing just to ensure you really break it down and end up with fairly small pieces and flour (your grainbag should contain most of it, so no worries). See how this works out in terms of gravity.

As for doughing in, get your strike water where it needs to be and pour your grain into it while stirring (greenbay rackers calculator works exceptionally well). With only a pound or two of grain this should take no more than 10 seconds to get all of the grain in there. Stir it up well and check your mash temp. If you're a little high or a little low, no worries, that can be fixed on future batches because this batch is about reasonable efficiency.

Thanks! I have enough of these grains for 2 more 1 gallon batches....more if I lower the gravity target. Guess I can treat them to the blender since I've already left the store...I'll make sure the 'crush' is improved.

That's a great idea not to waste hops and yeast if I don't hit my pre-boil targets.

 

[stpug]

That's a great idea not to waste hops and yeast if I don't hit my pre-boil targets.

I see it that way. In your case, due to frustration, I would just want to determine the culprit quickly. Take it one step at a time. The sugars (i.e. efficiency) come from the grain so there's no point moving beyond a mash and sparge if you're not getting your sugar you expect (deserve ). At about $4 a test, it's worth trying five or so tests to figure it out.

 

[jtratcliff]

It's your crush.... Double or triple crush at the LHBS. Barring that (my LHBS forbids double crush, for instance... Just one of the many reasons I shop online whenever possible) put it in the blender or hit it with a rolling pin... With BIAB there is no worry about a stuck sparge.

You want ALL the kernels broken... A little flour is no problem.

Single biggest efficiency improvement I got came from my ugly-junk corona mill.

 

[stpug]

^^Troll, and there would not be a negative impact on efficiency due to water/grain ratio.

 

[Brew_G]

^^Troll, and there would not be a negative impact on efficiency due to water/grain ratio.

^^Troll

 

[chubby]

So I picked up a mill. The rollers are spaced so that credit card just squeezes through them without being crushed. I know that's not very technical, but I understand a typical credit card is around .030.

I ran a batch of grains through that were crushed by the store. There seemed to be no remaining whole pieces. I honestly think it seems like a good setting. Not too large and I'm hoping not too fine. I am doing BIAB for these batches, but I need to make it work for 5 gallon batches or larger in the future.

I'm attaching a picture of my second crush vs. the original crush from the store. The Vienna (smaller bag on top) is the crush from the store. The bottom bag was crushed by them and then a second time by my mill.

Thoughts? I'm targeting this weekend to test this variable change.

 

[doug293cz]

So I picked up a mill. The rollers are spaced so that credit card just squeezes through them without being crushed. I know that's not very technical, but I understand a typical credit card is around .030.

I ran a batch of grains through that were crushed by the store. There seemed to be no remaining whole pieces. I honestly think it seems like a good setting. Not too large and I'm hoping not too fine. I am doing BIAB for these batches, but I need to make it work for 5 gallon batches or larger in the future.

I'm attaching a picture of my second crush vs. the original crush from the store. The Vienna (smaller bag on top) is the crush from the store. The bottom bag was crushed by them and then a second time by my mill.

Thoughts? I'm targeting this weekend to test this variable change.

The two pass crush looks a lot better. You should get a significant efficiency boost with that crush.

A 0.030" mill gap will not cause any problems for BIAB. I do 5 gal BIAB batches with my mill gap set to 0.016" without any draining issues. There are others who grind even finer (coarse flour) with good results (although they do have to reduce their mash times to compensate for the faster saccharification.)

Brew on

 

[chubby]

Thank you for all the input.

It was the crush....

My efficiency came up to 72.6%.

My gap on my mill is .030. If I decrease the gap am I likely to see a higher efficiency? I am doing BIAB.

I'm okay with my numbers, but I'm more okay having the highest utilization possible with my system so I can use less grains.

 

[doug293cz]

Thank you for all the input.

It was the crush....

My efficiency came up to 72.6%.

My gap on my mill is .030. If I decrease the gap am I likely to see a higher efficiency? I am doing BIAB.

I'm okay with my numbers, but I'm more okay having the highest utilization possible with my system so I can use less grains.

I BIAB and have my mill gap set at 0.016". I get efficiencies in the low to mid 80's.

Edit: So many threads, can't remember what I said where.
Brew on

 

[chubby]

I still don't think I've whipped this utilization thing.

I made the exact same recipe again this weekend.

crushed my grains at .016.
I built my water.
1.5 qts per pound.
Hit my mash temp of 154 and held it by 1 degree.
Mashed for 1 hour.

For the first time I did an iodine test on this batch. at 50 minutes all of the starches appeared to be converted.

The difference between this batch and the last that I had success with was 90 minutes last time and 60 this time. I don't understand how that could be a factor if the starches were converted in 60 minutes. It is a Pilsner base, but the crush is pretty fine.

My utilization was 66% (down from 72% on the last batch). I was expecting an increase in utilization with the finer crush. I'm doing BIAB and washing the grains in a gallon of 169 degree water after the initial mash. They soaked for about 15 minutes the second time.

Thoughts?

 

[Gavin C]

...
1.5 qts per pound.

...

With BIAB, don't concern yourself with targeting a water to grain ratio. Mash with as much of your total water volume your pot will allow. A finer grist and large mash volumes (with appropriate pH corrections) will equate to better efficiencies.

This is too little water for a BIAB mash in my view.

I mash with the entire volume and do no sparge as my pot size allows this.

Last brew with an 85% pilsner grainbill was 9lbs of grain and 7.9 gallons of water at strike. (3.51qts/lb)

 

[chubby]

Mash with as much of your total water volume your pot will allow.

I'm doing 1 gallon batch size in a 3 gallon igloo water cooler. I can fit the entire 2.25 pre-boil volume with grains in there I'm sure.

You don't do a sparge/rinsing of the grains. Do you do any stirring during the mash or dunk the grains? What kind of efficiencies are your seeing?

I'm curious why my results were different this time. I took my samples FOR IODINE TEST from the valve on the front of the cooler. I assume the action is fairly uniform throughout.

I don't have a PH meter as you do. I have some PH strips, but they are the broad range ones. The colors indicated that the mash PH was somewhere between 5 and 6. From that, I'm assuming that PH isn't my problem.

 

[Gavin C]

I'm doing 1 gallon batch size in a 3 gallon igloo water cooler. I can fit the entire 2.25 pre-boil volume with grains in there I'm sure.

You don't do a sparge/rinsing of the grains. Do you do any stirring during the mash or dunk the grains? What kind of efficiencies are your seeing?

I'm curious why my results were different this time. I took my samples FOR IODINE TEST from the valve on the front of the cooler. I assume the action is fairly uniform throughout.

I don't have a PH meter as you do. I have some PH strips, but they are the broad range ones. The colors indicated that the mash PH was somewhere between 5 and 6. From that, I'm assuming that PH isn't my problem.

I would absolutely recommend a full voulme mash with a fine milling of the grain with your MIAB method. Squeeze the snot out of the bag. I lose less than 0.05gallons per pound to grain absorption and do not sparge.

On the pH issue. Forget the strips. The experts on HBT say they are worse than useless. You are better served using Bru'n water and working blind. It is a great tool. Very accurate predictions of mash pH. Not spot on, but very close. Get a water report from your city or Ward labs and put the data into Bru'nWater. Each brew work out any water additions and the mash pH based on the grist. I adjust pH with acid malt. (usually 2-5% of the grain-bill).

Without some sort of water report, do nothing to the water. No mineral additions, no pH adjustments. Other option is to use RO water for each batch. A blank canvas to work with. No report needed, trust the software and do mineral and pH adjustments blind.

My efficiency will hover around 80%. I formulate my recipes at 80% brewhouse efficiency. I will lower it for bigger grain bills to 75% and up it to 82% for lighter grain-bills. An 80% setting allows me some wiggle room. My efficiency this weekend was a little lower than usual. I tried a new mashing technique (step mash with BIAB) and my Brewhouse efficiency was 78%, (planned 80%). Mash efficiency was 89%.

OG was 1.046 Planned OG was 1.047 so no major effect on the finished wort with the parameters (gravity, IBU and color) still well within the style I was looking for.

9lbs of grain for a 5.5 gallon batch at 1.046

Hope that helps

 

[doug293cz]

For the first time I did an iodine test on this batch. at 50 minutes all of the starches appeared to be converted.

The difference between this batch and the last that I had success with was 90 minutes last time and 60 this time. I don't understand how that could be a factor if the starches were converted in 60 minutes. It is a Pilsner base, but the crush is pretty fine.

If you run an iodine test on wort from the mash tun, it will only tell you if all of the starches in the liquid have been converted or not. It will not tell you if you have residual starch in the grain particles. For that you should take a sample of grains plus wort, grind the mix up in a mortar & pestle, and do an iodine test on that.

A simple way to determine if your conversion is complete is to measure the SG of the wort in the mash tun (after a good stir), and compare it to the maximum possible SG. For this you need accurate measurements of the strike water volume (room temp basis), and grain weight. From these plus the grain potentials, you can calculate the maximum possible SG in the mash tun. Your conversion efficiency is then:

(1 - Measured_SG) / (1 -Max_SG)​

Kai gives an approximate chart for determining max SG based on water to grain ratio here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Measuring_conversion_efficiency

My utilization was 66% (down from 72% on the last batch). I was expecting an increase in utilization with the finer crush. I'm doing BIAB and washing the grains in a gallon of 169 degree water after the initial mash. They soaked for about 15 minutes the second time.

Thoughts?

You need to be careful when comparing efficiencies batch to batch, as the accuracy of the efficiency calculations are only ± 4 - 5 percentage points, based on typical accuracies achieved in measuring water volumes, grain weight, grain potential, grain moisture content, and SG. Based on this, your two batches could have had the same efficiency (e.g. they both could actually have been 69%.)

Brew on