Venting idea

[jonesry09]

So I have read over the last few venting threads in an attempt to come up with an idea for venting my new electric brewery project. I will try and give as much background as I can.

My system is going to be a Kal clone set up to make 10G batches. I have set things up in my storage/utility room which unfortunately has no windows. The closest window is approximately 30 ft away and through the middle of the downstairs living room. The utility room does share a wall with a bathroom, but there is no window in there, just an air exchanger.

So here is my question. Has anyone ever set up a ventilation system where they vent into a drain? I guess a sump pump would be the same, or sink etc. I have a drain that has a hose going into it from the air conditioner. It just gets rid of the excess condensation. My thought was to vent from a 4'x4' stainless hood that I got for free on craigslist using a 6" inline fan. I would use that flexible dryer vent line and have it end at the drain.

Couple questions:

Does anyone see a problem with this?
Would this eliminate the need for make up air since the air isn't being pumped outside?

Appreciate the help and all the best!!

 

[azazel1024]

Not a good idea. You'll get sewer gas back out of the ventilation. DWV piping also isn't meant for 100C temperatures. You can vent the DWV system (you have to!) but you cannot vent in to it.

If that bathroom has a vent fan, why not hook up with the duct work for the vent fan?

 

[Rockn_M]

Since you're electric to heat the water I don't think you need ventilation that would require strong enough suction to remove possible CO which would require something to make up the air. You just need something to remove any steam to help keep things from getting soggy.

As for venting into a drain, as long as the same drain has a ventilation pipe going up then you should be ok. The water vapor will travel up and any condensation will travel down into the plumbing. If the drain doesn’t have a ventilation pipe the water vapor will travel up out of the drain.

Good Luck!

 

[jonesry09]

Not a good idea. You'll get sewer gas back out of the ventilation. DWV piping also isn't meant for 100C temperatures. You can vent the DWV system (you have to!) but you cannot vent in to it.

If that bathroom has a vent fan, why not hook up with the duct work for the vent fan?

Would sewer gas be coming up out of a floor drain? If I am just ending the dryer tubing before the drain on the floor (cement slab) what would cause this to back up?

Also, I have read some horrow stories about water leaking through duct work when guys have tapped in to them. There have been a few on here actually. Hence, why I was hesitant to tap into the bathroom fan.

Thank you so much for the help!!

 

[azazel1024]

If there is any water leaking through the duct work, then it wasn't properly installed to begin with. That is what vent ducting is supposed to do, is vent warm 100% humidity air. You'll get a lot of condensation in it. So if it leaks out, it needs to be remedied as it is.

Ah, floor drain. Then no, no sewer gas. Still not a great idea, because you'll be dumping lots of moisture and very hot air in to your foundation drain (assume it is connected to that). It probably isn't the end of the world, but foundation drains are generally not ventillated. You'd likely be increasing humidity of the basement in general as you increased the humidity of the foundation drain system (and warming the slab).

This is very hot, moist air. You want to be completely evacuating it from your house, generally as quickly as you can. Is it the end of the world if it doesn't? Maybe not, but it will increase humidity and/or temperature of the house if it isn't directly evacuated.

If this is PVC piping, don't. PVC is generally not rated to 100C unless it is CPVC (which is generally rated to 110C, but it is not used in drains). Regular schedule 40 that you are likely to find in a DWV system is 140F MAXIMUM. You do NOT want to be venting 100C air in to that.

If it is connected to the DWV system, unless behind an S-bend trap, you'll get sewer gases out. Since it is a floor drain, I assume it is connected to the foundation drain system, which is likely not vented to the outside at all (so you'd have hot, moist air coming up out of the sump well). If it IS vented to the outside, it is almost certainly through PVC piping. See again about this being a bad idea (granted, it may have traveled far enough and cooled enough it won't be over 140F by that point). On top of the bad ideaness, if it is vented, it is likely because you have active Radon reduction system. hot super saturated air is not something you want to be blowing/sucking through the fan of a Radon reduction system.

 

[jonesry09]

If there is any water leaking through the duct work, then it wasn't properly installed to begin with. That is what vent ducting is supposed to do, is vent warm 100% humidity air. You'll get a lot of condensation in it. So if it leaks out, it needs to be remedied as it is.

Ah, floor drain. Then no, no sewer gas. Still not a great idea, because you'll be dumping lots of moisture and very hot air in to your foundation drain (assume it is connected to that). It probably isn't the end of the world, but foundation drains are generally not ventillated. You'd likely be increasing humidity of the basement in general as you increased the humidity of the foundation drain system (and warming the slab).

This is very hot, moist air. You want to be completely evacuating it from your house, generally as quickly as you can. Is it the end of the world if it doesn't? Maybe not, but it will increase humidity and/or temperature of the house if it isn't directly evacuated.

If this is PVC piping, don't. PVC is generally not rated to 100C unless it is CPVC (which is generally rated to 110C, but it is not used in drains). Regular schedule 40 that you are likely to find in a DWV system is 140F MAXIMUM. You do NOT want to be venting 100C air in to that.

If it is connected to the DWV system, unless behind an S-bend trap, you'll get sewer gases out. Since it is a floor drain, I assume it is connected to the foundation drain system, which is likely not vented to the outside at all (so you'd have hot, moist air coming up out of the sump well). If it IS vented to the outside, it is almost certainly through PVC piping. See again about this being a bad idea (granted, it may have traveled far enough and cooled enough it won't be over 140F by that point). On top of the bad ideaness, if it is vented, it is likely because you have active Radon reduction system. hot super saturated air is not something you want to be blowing/sucking through the fan of a Radon reduction system.

This is exactly why I posted!! Thank you for the help.

So if I tap in to the bathroom air circulation duct work, will I need make up air? Or because I am using electric, I won't have to.

I should probably be able to find that elsewhere on here, but since we are talking about it already in here, why not ask.

What size/cfm fan should I use just to rid the vapor/hot air?

Again, thank you very much for the help

 

[jeffmeh]

This is exactly why I posted!! Thank you for the help.

So if I tap in to the bathroom air circulation duct work, will I need make up air? Or because I am using electric, I won't have to.

I should probably be able to find that elsewhere on here, but since we are talking about it already in here, why not ask.

What size/cfm fan should I use just to rid the vapor/hot air?

Again, thank you very much for the help

If your house were perfectly sealed, then the ventilation system would need make up air to work efficiently. If it is drafty or you can open a window, that will be good enough.

 

[wilserbrewer]

It would help if you were to post pics of your brew location and the adjoining bathroom. I think you may need to install a positive vent of some kind to the exterior of the building, perhaps sharing with the bathroom but that will get tricky. Venting to some sort of drain is not an option IMO....

 

[jonesry09]

Ok…
So I think I finally have the pictures working and upright so people don't get a sore neck.

Pic 1- That is the door in to the utility room. You can see the door to the bathroom if you look through the open door. It is the door on the right. On the other side of that bathroom is a bedroom. That is the other door you can see when looking out. This bathroom does not have an exterior wall on the sides. The back wall of the bathroom is likely an exterior wall but is half below grade (house is a walk-out). I can't see a way to drill a vent to the outside in the bathroom. In this picture you can see the mess of duct work, water lines etc. that have my head spinning.

Pic 2- That is the wall that I want to build everything on. It the only wall that has a long enough straight surface to have all 3 kettles etc there. That wall is about 6' until it takes a turn on the right side. On the left is a storage rack.

Pic 3- That is the drain that I was talking about having the flexible vent go to. I was thinking to do something much like the other 2 pipes that the builders have going there.

Hope this helps. I am pretty stuck right now on the venting ideas. I really do not want to pay an HVAC guy to come out here.

Thanks again and appreciate any advice

 

[wilserbrewer]

You have a wonderful modern basement with open floor joists that should accept a proper vent without too much trouble or expense. Running a vent to that floor drain is a horrible idea. A drain is not a vent.

Sorry to be blunt, but I will compliment again on your your nice space!

 

[jackyl]

Is there any reason why you wouldn't just put another wye in those hot water heater exhaust vents and take advantage of that? Aren't they right next to the floor drain you were thinking about?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Is there any reason why you wouldn't just put another wye in those hot water heater exhaust vents and take advantage of that? Aren't they right next to the floor drain you were thinking about?

While I don't know much about venting steam and exhaust from a hot water heater, I'm pretty sure this is a bad idea. If for no other reason cause it violates code. I would not tamper with the chimney pipe from a combustion appliance.

 

[jackyl]

While I don't know much about venting steam and exhaust from a hot water heater, I'm pretty sure this is a bad idea. If for no other reason cause it violates code. I would not tamper with the chimney pipe from a combustible appliance.

Probably a good point, I didn't think that one through.

 

[invictusbrew]

While I don't know much about venting steam and exhaust from a hot water heater, I'm pretty sure this is a bad idea. If for no other reason cause it violates code. I would not tamper with the chimney pipe from a combustion appliance.

This. Without getting too much into what I do for a living, dealing with exhaust vent for combustion appliances (damn, did I give it away?) has a whole lot to do with it. This is a horrible idea, but in Jackyl's defense, one that comes up in one way or another more than you would imagine.

The easiest way to solve this problem (and I suppose this is wholly dependent on the space we are talking about) is to set up a decent "f@rt" fan (more or less) with a vent hood and vent it outside the house. Whether through a current dryer vent (doesn't seem that the dryer is in this space), through a window (this doesn't work for you either in this space), or something more permanent (depending on where your set-up is in relation to the outside of the house and how much trouble this might be to run the venting, this could be a surprisingly cheap and easy option... or a fairly expensive and difficult one). Either way, I would recommend NOT using the drains, NOT using the water heater exhaust vent, and NOT cutting into your HVAC system without the help of a professional - on this note, if you know any, these guys are often more than happy to help for a case of beer. Good luck!

 

[Rivenin]

what about a steam condenser hood?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=297089

 

[azazel1024]

With those open joist bays, can't you take a peak over the bathroom and see where the vent duct work is? Stand on a chair or something.

You will want to vent to the outside, 100%, even with electric. That is a lot of humidity. I would GUESS if you were doing smaller batches and didn't mind doing a condensor hood over it that was not vented, you could run a dehumidifier or two in the room to pull the moisture back out of the air (hood to prevent condensation from forming on things that it shouldn't and the dehumidifiers to pull the humidty back out). That would only be for electric brewing and it would NOT be for large batch. Boil off a gallon in a batch, not a big deal in a decent sized room with a decent dehumidifier running in it. Most dehumidifiers are rated to pull 30-90 pints of water per day out of the air. Big batches, like 10+ gallon batches where you are doing long rolling boils...not such a good idea as the dehumidifier could in no way keep up with that so you could easily spike the humidity even in a large room like that storage room by 20-30 points for a few hours until the dehumidifier could work through it (good way to start rusting things and or growing mold).

Propane/NG absolutely must be vented.

On make up air, no you don't need to worry about that. Even well sealed houses exchange a good .5-1 volume of air per hour through vents, cracks, etc. You actually want ventilation in that range to prevent excessive humidity (even in humid climates), stale air, etc. It is only when air exchange jumps over 1 volume of air per hour that you get excessive energy loss, or less than .5 volume per air you get stale air.

Most US homes are in the 1-3 volumes of air per hour range...just as an idea of how poorly sealed most homes are.

For a vent, anything rated for high moisture and temperature at a modest flow rate. Frankly, I'd look for an inexpensive range vent fan. They usually aren't very expensive and if you slapped together a 24x24" square vent 3-4ft above the pot (or a 5ftx2ft or 6ftx3ft or whatever if multiple kettles) that would easily vent most of the moisture out.

 

[jonesry09]

Went up with a ladder and flashlight and couldn't see very far. The combination of the stairs blocking half of the wall and all the HVAC gear with the 2 furnaces lead to not much of a view. I will see if any of my friends know a HVAC guy who likes beer and can come give me some insight.

I did see a vent labelled basement bathroom but that lead back to the air exchange unit. I am not sure if that bathroom vent goes outside or if it is just run through the exchange unit and pumped back in via another vent.

 

[azazel1024]

If it heads back to the plenum, then it is either an air return or an air supply duct to the bathroom. The vent fan must (and will, unless a hack HVAC guy and a blind inspector) vent to the exterior of the house. It CAN pass through a heat exchanger (rare, but I've seen it on a few "green" builds), but it won't be connected to the HVAC duct work.

 

[Firewalker11]

Makeup air is vital to NG/Propane. While most houses are loose, that house looks to be newer and is wrapped. If so, the make up air may already be there for the furnace and water heater. We loose 100+ people every winter in Minnesota due to Co poisoning do to improper make up air.

 

[jonesry09]

So this is what is going on up the azazel1024/everyone. Hopefully the pictures will help explain this.

I have a class 1 flex tube running from the Venmar towards the bathroom. This line also appears to run to the outside of my house via a vent under my deck (attached a pic of the vent). The reason I know that this flex runs to this vent is because someone ran some satellite cables through it (pictures posted) and those cables come out the outside vent (you can actually see them coming out of the vent in the pic) and plug in to the satellite which is mounted to the deck beam. Does them doing this pose any problem?

So for the experts. Do I have something I can work with here now that I found that this line goes to outside? This flex line has insulation on the inside and I feel like this would soak up the moisture I am trying to get rid of. Common sense would lead me to believe that there is no way I can just vent right into this flex line for multiple reasons.

I am trying to wrap my head around what is going on here. I am thinking that this flex line is supplying outside air to the Venmar. Is that correct?

I can't seem to see where the bathroom air exchange vent goes, just too much stuff up in the joists to see that far.

Thanks again for the help guys

PS. I am not going to do anything crazy myself here. So I don't want anyone getting freaked out that I am going to blow myself up hahaha I am just using the forum to educate myself on my options so that I can make the best decision going forward.

 

[jonesry09]

Anyone on this ^^?!?

 

[wilserbrewer]

The Venmar is an Energy Recovery Ventilator (ERV). I am no HVAC expert, but I am not sure a unit like that is intended for humid venting that a brewery would bring. You have a nice space and some nice equipment shown $$$, be a shame to half ass it like the guy that installed the sat com cable....

 

[jonesry09]

The Venmar is an Energy Recovery Ventilator (ERV). I am no HVAC expert, but I am not sure a unit like that is intended for humid venting that a brewery would bring. You have a nice space and some nice equipment shown $$$, be a shame to half ass it like the guy that installed the sat com cable....

Totally agree. Just trying to figure out how to get outside. I would never vent into that Venmar. I'm not a HVAC guy either, but like you, I thought that was an obvious "no no" right away. Looks like I'll have to go up with some duct tape and close that hole the nice satellite guy made for me. Can't be very efficient right now hahaha

 

[MajorWoody]

I wish I was standing in your basement because I think we'd probably have it all figured out by now.
As others have said, you can't vent into a drain; there's a trap under there that is full of water. That's why your basement doesn't smell like sewage all the time.
You've correctly determined that you can't vent into a combustion air duct or into your HRV. You must tightline this all the way to the exterior of your house using ductwork that will not be affected by moisture.
Because the ductwork is going to be a long run and because the walls of the ductwork are going to be cooler than the warm, moist air you are venting, you are going to experience a lot of condensation on the interior walls of the ductwork. For this reason you are going to need to provide positive slope to either an interior drain at a low point or to the exterior. Your joints need to be watertight. For this reason I would suggest you use lightweight PVC drain pipe and cemented joints. You will need a 6" inline fan, minimum. Possibly a larger one because of the length of the run. You need to arrange to have whatever moisture accumulates in the duct to run to a place where it will not damage your house when it drips out.
I see the flex duct runs along a joist bay and then terminates through the wall of the house.
Is there room in the adjacent bay to run your exhaust duct?