Using Starsan in Sparge Water

[ajdelange]

Yes I read those posts before posting.

I'm not talking about making major adjustments with super alkaline water. I'm talking about using RO water and a negligible amount of foodsafe, no-rinse sanitizer.

Ah, then you should see #6 which says there is no need to do this as RO water has unappreciable (2.5 ppm as CaCO3) alkalinity.

I know that grains will naturally drop the ph of the mash. I'm not arguing that. I'm saying that the washed grains loose that ability. Thus, the acidified sparge water.

Perhaps you read #24 but don't understand what it is saying.

Base malts don't have the ability to lower mash pH. Acid must be added to do that. Acid must also be added to water to lower its pH. The amount of acid required to lower each grain to a desired pH is called its proton deficit. The proton deficit of a kg of Maris Otter with respect to pH 5.4 is 14 mEq. You must add that much acid to it to get it's pH to 5.4. If you mix that with 3 L of water of alkalinity 100 you have a proton deficit, wrt pH 5.4 of another 5.2 meq and you need that much more acid. If you use RO water, however, its deficit (RE 5.4) is only 0.15 mEq and you only need to add the 14 mEq. None for the water (or so little you can ignore the requirement). The RO water does not contain any base (assumining for purposes of simplified explanation that it is effectively deionized). It will not, when used to sparge a mash, pull the pH of the wort higher because it is not a proton absorber. In fact the mash will pull its pH down (the mash has appreciable buffering, the water 0). Now in the real world RO water isn't deionized. It, in fact, contains a bit of acid (carbonic acid ) and will probably have a pH of 6 or a bit below. There is, therefore, no need to add any acid to it whatsoever. If you do add acid to it then you will have added more acid than you need and the mash pH will go lower than it would otherwise. If you have only added a tiny bit then the pH shift will be small and not something you need worry about. But why bother when it essentially does nothing?

 

[MrBinsky]

Ah, then you should see #6 which says there is no need to do this as RO water has unappreciable (2.5 ppm as CaCO3) alkalinity.


Perhaps you read #24 but don't understand what it is saying.

Base malts don't have the ability to lower mash pH. Acid must be added to do that. Acid must also be added to water to lower its pH. The amount of acid required to lower each grain to a desired pH is called its proton deficit. The proton deficit of a kg of Maris Otter with respect to pH 5.4 is 14 mEq. You must add that much acid to it to get it's pH to 5.4. If you mix that with 3 L of water of alkalinity 100 you have a proton deficit, wrt pH 5.4 of another 5.2 meq and you need that much more acid. If you use RO water, however, its deficit (RE 5.4) is only 0.15 mEq and you only need to add the 14 mEq. None for the water (or so little you can ignore the requirement). The RO water does not contain any base (assumining for purposes of simplified explanation that it is effectively deionized). It will not, when used to sparge a mash, pull the pH of the wort higher because it is not a proton absorber. In fact the mash will pull its pH down (the mash has appreciable buffering, the water 0). Now in the real world RO water isn't deionized. It, in fact, contains a bit of acid (carbonic acid ) and will probably have a pH of 6 or a bit below. There is, therefore, no need to add any acid to it whatsoever. If you do add acid to it then you will have added more acid than you need and the mash pH will go lower than it would otherwise. If you have only added a tiny bit then the pH shift will be small and not something you need worry about. But why bother when it essentially does nothing?

No need to be condescending. The RO water may have very little buffering capacity but it still has some. It isn't distilled, after all. On my next batch I'll forgo the starsan and measure the ph of the water above the grainbed throughout the sparge process. If it doesn't change, great. You're right and I'll stop using starsan. However, if it raises, especially if it raises above 6 then I'll continue using starsan.

 

[Aonghus]

I did a search for this and didn't come up with any threads, so I thought I'd post it. For the better part of the last year, my buddy and I have been using starsan to drop the ph of our sparge water. I know this sounds weird, but hear me out.

The reasoning is that when collecting wort, you want to collect as much as possible, however, you don't want your runnings to get below 1.010 or you risk extracting tannins. This, of course, is because as you sparge more and more water, the ph of your mash will rise. Tannins aren't extracted in water with a ph below 6, but once the ph rises above 6, you get tannins.

Now, just to clarify, we usually cut off runnings before 1.010 anyway, but we just want to be sure not to extract ANY tannins. We literally just put about 1 or 2 tiny drops of starsan in our few gallons of sparge water and that is enough to drop the ph from around 8 to 5. We of course verify this with a ph meter. The amount of starsan is so small that it does absolutely nothing to the taste of the water, and in all honesty, us homebrewers accidentally get more starsan in our finished beer anyway between using it to sanitize various things such as carboys, kegs, buckets, and bottles.

I had my reservations at first, and I let my brew buddy do it on a few of his batches before I did it on mine. (It was his idea.) Once his beer came out great, with no noticeable difference, I started doing it to mine. We've probably brewed around 15 batches using this method, and it's worked great.

Anybody else ever try this? Any thoughts or questions?

I think your idea is brilliant.

 

[Terek]

That's interesting. Do you clean separately with a cleaner such as One Step?


I use Star San as a cleaner and sanitizer, using their suggested mixing directions. I know that Star San is not supposed to be a cleaner, just a sanitizer, but, much like you, it has worked for me for a number of years with no infections.

I clean all my stuff with hot water at the end of the day, but when the next brew day comes, i just use star san as a cleaner and sanitizer. I have found over the years that people get way out of hand when it comes to sanitization. The only time i get real hardcore is when yeast washing, and bottling. Mainly cuz a lot of my bottles have had a mouth on them.

 

[bracehelton]

I have a few ideas too. Add sour cream to your finished berliner to achieve a tart, cloudy product you can be proud of. PBW is an alkaline cleaner... Screw chalk or baking soda, add PBW to raise pH in the mash for those stouts and porters. Malt has sugar, but so does my daughters morning breakfast, I'm using her Lucky Charms for my to get my desired extract. It's a matter of purpose; lactic/phosphoric acids are meant to act as such, ACIDS. Stars san is a sanitizer, I prefer to use it accordingly. And besides, as said many times previously, RO water does not need to be acidified. It's about as blank of a slate as one could possibly get.

 

[Terek]

I have a few ideas too. Add sour cream to your finished berliner to achieve a tart, cloudy product you can be proud of. PBW is an alkaline cleaner... Screw chalk or baking soda, add PBW to raise pH in the mash for those stouts and porters. Malt has sugar, but so does my daughters morning breakfast, I'm using her Lucky Charms for my to get my desired extract. It's a matter of purpose; lactic/phosphoric acids are meant to act as such, ACIDS. Stars san is a sanitizer, I prefer to use it accordingly. And besides, as said many times previously, RO water does not need to be acidified. It's about as blank of a slate as one could possibly get.

That type of thinking is what holds he human race back. Repurposing things and finding new ways to do things is human nature and moves us forward. I think my next brew I will put lucky charms into my mash. Hell, it could be the next big thing and I could make millions selling it. Just saying, dont be so closed minded

 

[MrHadack]

That type of thinking is what holds he human race back. Repurposing things and finding new ways to do things is human nature and moves us forward.

Nah, that's not really the case here. This is more along the lines of "I can't be bothered to do it the right way so I found a shortcut that isn't as good, but gets the job done." Remember in the 80s when Austrians used diethylene glycol in their wine? BRILLIANT! New way of doing things! Moved the Austrian wine industry forward!

 

[chisena]

I find it incredibly hard to believe that dipping your thermometer in StarSan and stirring sparge water with it would have any recognizable effect on your finished product.

 

[Terek]

Nah, that's not really the case here. This is more along the lines of "I can't be bothered to do it the right way so I found a shortcut that isn't as good, but gets the job done." Remember in the 80s when Austrians used diethylene glycol in their wine? BRILLIANT! New way of doing things! Moved the Austrian wine industry forward!

And what is the right way? the way you say to do it? you just dont get it. This thread is so far off topic its sickning. If you all have such a problem with star san and its so unsafe and poisonous, lets just outlaw it and stop using it. My god.

 

[The_Bishop]

That type of thinking is what holds he human race back. Repurposing things and finding new ways to do things is human nature and moves us forward.

And, occasionally, *your* type of thinking results in Darwin Awards.

I brew with RO water, and I acidify with 88% Lactic Acid. I don't acidify my sparge water, as there's no need. It can't be a cost thing, as I'm still on my original 5 oz. container after a year of brewing. So little is needed that it goes a *long* way.

You've got a double whammy here. 1: Acidifying RO sparge water that doesn't need it. 2: Doing it with a substance that is meant to sanitize, not be consumed in any real quantity.

 

[MrHadack]

And what is the right way? the way you say to do it? you just dont get it. This thread is so far off topic its sickning. If you all have such a problem with star san and its so unsafe and poisonous, lets just outlaw it and stop using it. My god.

First, it's not off topic. We're discussing using starsan as an acid source to modify pH, aren't we? The OP asked for comments. You seem to think that anything aside from praise is out of line.

You're also creating a strawman argument saying people are objecting because they think starsan is "poisonous and unsafe." If others are saying this at all (I never did) they are probably referring to that concept that when you use starsan NOT as directed, it certainly does have deleterious and unwanted effects.

My point, demonstrated by the example of the Austrian wines is simple: just because an innovative and alternate solution to a problem has a similar result, it doesn't mean it is equally as good. Will starsan lower pH? Sure. Will one tiny drop in a gallon of water have any bad side effects? Most likely not. In an emergency, that's a pretty good stop gap measure and a clever one, I can see that. But to make it your go-to process is just laziness. And that's just an opinion. To me, it's like someone who can't be bothered to go get a hammer so they try to pound a nail in with a rock. In a pinch, it gets the job done. But I'd never rely on the rock as an everyday tool when hammers are easy to come by.

 

[MrBinsky]

I can see why people have a problem with the idea of using it directly in their wort, but as I've said, when you use starsan to sanitize equipment without rinsing, you are going to end up getting more starsan in your finished product than this does. Especially if you are rinsing your 12oz bottles with it.

I used to bottle and now I keg, so in all honestly, despite using this sparge water technique, I probably have less starsan in my beer now than I used to.

I understand the argument that starsan is not meant to be used this way, but it makes no difference in the end. Besides, we use toilet parts to make beer. Are we really all that rigid on "using as directed"?

 

[Terek]

You're also creating a strawman argument saying people are objecting because they think starsan is "poisonous and unsafe." If others are saying this at all (I never did) they are probably referring to that concept that when you use starsan NOT as directed, it certainly does have deleterious and unwanted effects.

you obviously have not read the other 4 pages of this thread. And I have used starsan in many "not as directed" situations for years and years and have NEVER had any deleterious and unwanted effects. I simply stated to the OP what i have used it for and my experiences threw out the years. All I received was post after post as to why "im wrong" with no hard evidence. Just peoples opinions and info they kind of scrounged up on the web. No first hand experiences. Just a lot of "if its not in the three sentences on the label, you are wrong" So I will continue to get the most I can out of my products, and you all can follow the herd. I guess thinking outside of the box is frowned upon these days. Even with hard proof that has been proven time and time again. Whatever, ill keep my secrets to myself i guess. Whats the phrase? " work harder, not smarter?" I always thought it was the other way around. Go figure

 

[WissahickonBrew]

Maybe it's the folks at Starsan that are wrong?

Funny, been mixing it that way for like 5 years and have never had an infection. Seems my way works just fine

 

[WissahickonBrew]

Some of the contributors in this thread make me wonder why Starsan hasn't thought of starting their own soft drink line. Sanitizer over ice sounds cool and refreshing on a hot summer day.

The OP asked for opinions and got them. The guy who tops off his batches with sanitizer took the cake for me.... mama mia!

 

[Terek]

Some of the contributors in this thread make me wonder why Starsan hasn't thought of starting their own soft drink line. Sanitizer over ice sounds cool and refreshing on a hot summer day.

The OP asked for opinions and got them. The guy who tops off his batches with sanitizer took the cake for me.... mama mia!

what really takes the cake is that brew took 2nd in a comp. So watch out, that volatile sanitizer will ruin anything it comes in contact with. Just use bleach, its been being used as a sanitizer for a long long time. Use as directed. Hell, amonia sanitizes as well. Start using that, only as directed

 

[Terek]

Ow, throw away your mash tuns that are made out of coolers, thats not there intended use.

 

[Terek]

You cannot brew in your garage either, Its intended use is for vehicle storage. No were does it say it is to be used to produce alcoholic beverages! You must go buy a building specifically designed for brewing, or your doing it wrong. Something detrimental might happen.......

 

[MrHadack]

You cannot brew in your garage either, Its intended use is for vehicle storage. No were does it say it is to be used to produce alcoholic beverages! You must go buy a building specifically designed for brewing, or your doing it wrong. Something detrimental might happen.......

More unrelated strawmen arguments... some reducto absurdum thrown in for good measure. Strong arguments!

 

[Terek]

figured id give the same smart ass arguments as the other posts. This thread seems a joke to everyone else, thought id join in. But i guess im not allowed to, because you say so.

 

[max384]

And what is the right way? the way you say to do it? you just dont get it. This thread is so far off topic its sickning. If you all have such a problem with star san and its so unsafe and poisonous, lets just outlaw it and stop using it. My god.

How exactly is this thread off topic???

As per the OP:

Any thoughts or questions?

We can disagree and still be on topic.

I can see why people have a problem with the idea of using it directly in their wort, but as I've said, when you use starsan to sanitize equipment without rinsing, you are going to end up getting more starsan in your finished product than this does. Especially if you are rinsing your 12oz bottles with it.

I used to bottle and now I keg, so in all honestly, despite using this sparge water technique, I probably have less starsan in my beer now than I used to.

I understand the argument that starsan is not meant to be used this way, but it makes no difference in the end. Besides, we use toilet parts to make beer. Are we really all that rigid on "using as directed"?

The problem is that you AREN'T getting more Star San in the finished product when rinsing bottles, kegs, and equipment as compared to adding it directly to the wort. By mixing Star San as directed, you are diluting it 640:1. So, what this means is that if an entire ounce of Star San solution ended up in your beer, you would end up with 1/640 of an ounce of Star San in your beer. That equates to less than a single drop of Star San, and an ounce of Star San is probably a high estimate for how much ends up in beer.

 

[MrBinsky]

In all honesty, this has made me realize, that while it is cool to use starsan for another purpose, there really isn't any excuse for why I continue to use it, rather than just buying some acid. I suppose it is laziness. But as I've said, I guess I've just never gotten around to buying acid for this purpose just because of that fact that it wouldn't make a bit of difference.

The problem is that you AREN'T getting more Star San in the finished product when rinsing bottles, kegs, and equipment as compared to adding it directly to the wort. By mixing Star San as directed, you are diluting it 640:1. So, what this means is that if an entire ounce of Star San solution ended up in your beer, you would end up with 1/640 of an ounce of Star San in your beer. That equates to less than a single drop of Star San, and an ounce of Star San is probably a high estimate for how much ends up in beer.

We are talking about such small quantities that is doesn't matter, but for what it's worth, according to wikipedia, there are about 20 drops in a milliliter. Of course drops vary in size, and I use very small drops which are probably smaller than 1/20ml, that's just the number we will use. Now, assuming that entire drop makes it into my beer, (it doesn't. A good amount never makes it out of the MLT) this means I am adding 1/20ml of starsan to my beer (~0.0017oz). Now, I have never measured it, of course, but I figure that somewhere in the ballpark of 1/2ml of sanitizer solution makes it into each bottle after a rinse. I give the bottle a good shake and try to get out as much starsan as possible, but I'm moving quickly. 1/2ml times 50 bottles is 25ml of starsan solution. I mix my starsan at the directed ratio, which as you pointed out, is a 1:640. So, 25ml of a 1/640 solution of starsan is ~0.0014oz.

So based on my extremely rough math, my method of acidifying sparge water with starsan puts around 0.0017oz of starsan in my finished beer, while bottling puts about 0.0014oz of starsan in my finished beer. Based on how rough the calculations are, I suppose that is basically equal. Acidifying sparge water adds roughly as much starsan to my beer as bottling did. (Which by the way, is a fraction of one percent of an ounce!)

Is me using starsan instead of a proper acid lazy. Ya, I guess I'll give you that. But does is make a difference? I'd argue no.

 

[max384]

In all honesty, this has made me realize, that while it is cool to use starsan for another purpose, there really isn't any excuse for why I continue to use it, rather than just buying some acid. I suppose it is laziness. But as I've said, I guess I've just never gotten around to buying acid for this purpose just because of that fact that it wouldn't make a bit of difference.



We are talking about such small quantities that is doesn't matter, but for what it's worth, according to wikipedia, there are about 20 drops in a milliliter. Of course drops vary in size, and I use very small drops which are probably smaller than 1/20ml, that's just the number we will use. Now, assuming that entire drop makes it into my beer, (it doesn't. A good amount never makes it out of the MLT) this means I am adding 1/20ml of starsan to my beer (~0.0017oz). Now, I have never measured it, of course, but I figure that somewhere in the ballpark of 1/2ml of sanitizer solution makes it into each bottle after a rinse. I give the bottle a good shake and try to get out as much starsan as possible, but I'm moving quickly. 1/2ml times 50 bottles is 25ml of starsan solution. I mix my starsan at the directed ratio, which as you pointed out, is a 1:640. So, 25ml of a 1/640 solution of starsan is ~0.0014oz.

So based on my extremely rough math, my method of acidifying sparge water with starsan puts around 0.0017oz of starsan in my finished beer, while bottling puts about 0.0014oz of starsan in my finished beer. Based on how rough the calculations are, I suppose that is basically equal. Acidifying sparge water adds roughly as much starsan to my beer as bottling did. (Which by the way, is a fraction of one percent of an ounce!)

Is me using starsan instead of a proper acid lazy. Ya, I guess I'll give you that. But does is make a difference? I'd argue no.

I'd argue that half a milliliter of Star San solution per bottle sounds like a very high estimate... But regardless, I guess either way really isn't all that much Star San. I actually didn't remember that you had said you only put one drop in during the sparge. I still wouldn't use this method myself though...

 

[WissahickonBrew]

My remarks are but related...

I often wondered about the process of homebrewers brewing concoctions without any monitoring, adding "ingredients" and bottling the finished product which is then submitted for judging and tasting by others. There are no regulations or culpability with regard to what is (or should) be disclosed as far as ingredients goes. I dare say if a homebrewer was required to disclose their recipe included topping off with Starsan sanitizer it might give the judge pause before ingesting it. In some instances the homebrewer is required to submit their "recipe" if they win first place or best of show. I wonder if even then does the ingredient "Starsan" show up?

what really takes the cake is that brew took 2nd in a comp. So watch out, that volatile sanitizer will ruin anything it comes in contact with. Just use bleach, its been being used as a sanitizer for a long long time. Use as directed. Hell, amonia sanitizes as well. Start using that, only as directed