• Please visit and share your knowledge at our sister communities:
  • If you have not, please join our official Homebrewing Facebook Group!

    Homebrewing Facebook Group

Using a wort chiller in Libya?

Homebrew Talk

Help Support Homebrew Talk:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Brewer_Bob

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
188
Reaction score
6
Location
Harare
So I am planning to brew my first batch of ale here in Libya. I am concerned about how to cool the wort down quickly. A wort chiller is coming with my kit but I am certain the water coming out of the tap here is not cold enough to bring the wort down to pitching temps. The water is probably 75-80 degrees. Great for the kiddie pool, not so great for the wort. Though considering the hottest temperature ever recorded was in this country, 75-80 isn't that bad.

I will be doing 5 gallons of extract brew in a 10 gallon pot. I am not ready to try anything along the lines of a counterflow chiller just yet. I'm not that mechanically inclined and it isn't like there is a Home Depot down the street. So I am considering two different options. Which one do you think is best? Or if you have a better suggestion I am all ears.

Option 1: After I take the pot off the burner, place it in a large bucket with ice water AND use the immersion chiller at the same time.

Option 2: Purchase a second immersion chiller. Connect the water hose to immersion chiller #1. Connect immersion chiller #1 to immersion chiller #2 with a short hose. Place IC#1 in an ice bath so that the water coming out the other end is cold. Place IC#2 in the wort.

I am looking for the quickest most efficient way. Efficient meaning the less ice I have to use the better.

Fermenting temperatures shouldn't be hard to maintain. I will let the brew ferment in my office, which has its own AC unit that can go down to 18 degrees Celsius, or around 65 Fahrenheit. I figure I'll just leave it on all the time.
 
Option 2 if you have the funds, however on option 1, if you have a long incoming hose you could coil it up in the ice bath around the BK as much as possible, or another ice bath, it might help, however it defeats your efficiency requirement. Those last 15 degres are gonna be tough though.

Keep on brewing my friends.:mug:
 
I do your option 2. Got some cheap copper tube and just coiled it in another pot full of ice and water and salt. I don't know how it works, but the salt lets the water get to a colder temperatur than just ice and water by itself.
 
Yeah, here in Texas where the average hose temp is probably similar to yours, everyone I know uses a pre-chiller. I know that it sounds expensive, but lets say your chiller that you have now uses 1/2" copper tubing, make a 1/4" pre-chiller. it works great for me, and it was fairly affordable. I don't know if they ship from Austin, Tx to Libya, but here's something like I'm talking about http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?products_id=12577. Also, here is a video from a fellow forum member teaching you how to make a wort chiller
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I've been using a prechiller and find that in the summer it is still hard to get all the way down to pitching temp. This may be because I'm not starting with enough ice, but I'm seriously thinking about changing methods. I know some people recirculate the ice water through their chiller with a pump, and it seems like that might be more efficient after the wort get down to approximately the same temp. as the tap water. So the plan would be to run tap water through the chiller until the wort is down to near tap water temp., then change the hookup to pump ice water from a large bucket or cooler through the chiller with the return going back into the ice water bucket/cooler. I'd like to hear some opinions from people who are doing something like this - does it work better than just using a prechiller? Is it necessary to have a filter on the water going to the pump to filter out small chunks of ice so that they don't get into the pump?
 
Option #2. Get the wort down to tap water temperature then hook up the second IC and put it in the ice water. That will save your ice and cool it down to pitching temperature.
 
I think HBHoss has got it right.

Use the regular tap water and IC to get down as low as you can. Then link in a second IC in your ice bath.

As stated that way you get as much gain from the tap water before you start using up ice.
 
With option #2 it doesn't even take a full size wort chiller for the pre-chiller. I've got a little one I use made from about 10 feet of copper tubbing. Fits nicely in a small bucket.

When I lived in the deserts of Arizona my tap water was way too warm as well. A little trick I developed was to run the regular IC off of the tap until I got the temperature of the wort from boiling to just warm. Then I took a bucket and filled it with ice. I placed that bucket in a raised location (on top of the refrigerator) and filled it up with water. Run a hose from the bucket to the input side of the IC and let the ice water gravity feed through the IC. Brought me down to pitching temp by the time the bucket was empty.
 
Great stuff guys, thanks. I think I am going to purchase that prechiller from AHB. No, they don't deliver to Libya but the embassy has a US based mailing address and then the State Department picks it up from there and flies it to us. The upside of that is I only pay US postage rates. The down side is delivery takes an extra two weeks. Oh well, patience is a virtue in this hobby, right?
 
With option #2 it doesn't even take a full size wort chiller for the pre-chiller. I've got a little one I use made from about 10 feet of copper tubbing. Fits nicely in a small bucket.

When I lived in the deserts of Arizona my tap water was way too warm as well. A little trick I developed was to run the regular IC off of the tap until I got the temperature of the wort from boiling to just warm. Then I took a bucket and filled it with ice. I placed that bucket in a raised location (on top of the refrigerator) and filled it up with water. Run a hose from the bucket to the input side of the IC and let the ice water gravity feed through the IC. Brought me down to pitching temp by the time the bucket was empty.

Interesting. How big a bucket and how much ice? Any problems with the ice clogging the hose?
 
Option #2. Get the wort down to tap water temperature then hook up the second IC and put it in the ice water. That will save your ice and cool it down to pitching temperature.
There we go. I'm putting this near the top of my to-do list. Even here in WA, getting the wort down that last 20-30 degrees takes forever.
 
Interesting. How big a bucket and how much ice? Any problems with the ice clogging the hose?

To save some money I'd usually freeze blocks of ice myself several days before brew day. Four Coolwhip sized plastic containers, I'd bust the blocks a little with a hammer in the sink, so about a gallon of ice (8 pounds?). And I'd use a 5 gallon bucket drilled with a spigot. No problems with ice clogs.
 
Do you have a hand held drill, preferably one you plug in?

If so, lay your hands on a cheap drill pump. (I don't know if you can have someone here ship you one of these 7 dollar wal-mart ones)

0003956411255_P321146_215X215.jpg


A lot of folks use it as a pre-chiller with their immersion chiller. You basically fill a big container, even a large cooler, with ice water (some folks even add salt) hook it up to their wort chiller and reciculate the water through. If your ground water is warm, I would use that FIRST to bring it from boiling down to a reasonable temp, and then use this ice setup to bring it colder.

I have seen some folks in summer at group brews just use the ice/pump/immersion chiller only rather than lining up to wait for a free hose.

The pump in the picture is walmart- for about 8 bucks. http://www.walmart.com/ip/Performan...wmlspartner=GPA&sourceid=44444444440392146552

I've also seen folks using an immersion aquarium pump in a similar setup.
 
Option #2. Get the wort down to tap water temperature then hook up the second IC and put it in the ice water. That will save your ice and cool it down to pitching temperature.

Or just put the prechiller in a bucket of water, run the tap water thru the prechiller and chiller in series, then all you have to do is add the ice to the prechiller bucket after the wort gets down near tap water temp. - saves having to change the hookup midstream - just takes a second to dump in the ice. That's what I've been doing, but it still seems to me that recirculating ice water (only after the wort is down to tap water temperature and below) might be more efficient, but would require some plumbing changes during chilling process.
 
If I was in your situation I would cool the wort with the hose water first. get the temp Down.
Then I would kick in the second ice water cold chiller.

water flow (1)

G hose to Wort chiller in hot wort water to 2nd chiller (that is in the open air) to ground

water flow (2)

G hose to Iced chiller to chiller in wort to ground
 
what? adding salt to water makes it colder?

think about that for a second. i mean, unless the temperature of the salt is colder than the water......
 
The reason ice "melts" when you put salt on it is because the freezing temperature of the ice is lowered by the fact that it's no longer pure water - it's water + salt solution. So the freezing temp of your new mixture is no longer 32F, it's 30 or 29 or whatever.

Adding salt to water does nothing thermodynamically. You're simply making a solution of salt and water. I mean, where is the heat going if you're removing it?

What might be happening is that when you add salt to a bucket of ice, some of the ice melts and you now have ice water. Which makes heat transfer much more efficient, because convection heat transfer is more efficient than conduction.
 
I hate to rain on everyone's parade but we may be treading into that odd gray area again...

Alcohol is officially banned in Libya, though in reality, alcohol is readily available through a local black market (anything from whiskey to beer to wine). It should be noted that penalties for unlawful purchase can be quite stiff. Travelers should always exercise appropriate common sense with respect to local laws and, more importantly, local sensitivities and traditions.

taken from the wiki: http://wikitravel.org/en/Libya

They say that the penalties for buying it are stiff, brewing is probably much, much worse...

I do wish you the best of luck with your brewing!!! :mug:

EDIT: After the fact I see you are military/embassy personnel, so you may have diplomatic immunities. Just be careful, we want you home in one piece!!!
 
what? adding salt to water makes it colder?

think about that for a second. i mean, unless the temperature of the salt is colder than the water......

I'm not making this up...

http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/saltandfreezing/ofwater.html

Under normal conditions, ordinary water freezes at 0°C, or 32°F. However, if you add salt to water, its freezing point becomes lower. Let's look at why a salt water solution has a freezing point below zero, and how you can use this fact to make ice cream!

At the right is a container of water with an ice cube in it. The water and ice are at 0°C, which is the melting point of ice and the freezing point of water.
Molecules of ice are constantly escaping into the water (melting), and molecules of water are being captured on the surface of the ice (freezing).
When the rate of freezing is the same as the rate of melting, the amount of ice and the amount of water won't change. The ice and water are said to be in dynamic equilibrium with each other. The ice is melting, and the water is freezing, but both are occurring at the same rate, so there is no net change in either quantity.
This balance will be maintained as long as the water stays at 0°C, or unless something happens to favour one of the processes over the other.


Here is the same container, but where the water temperature is -10°C.
The molecules of water are moving more slowly, because they contain less heat. These slower-moving water molecules are more easily captured by the ice, and freezing occurs at a greater rate than melting.
Because there are more water molecules being captured by the ice (being frozen) than there are ice molecules turning to water, the net result is that the amount of water decreases, and the amount of ice increases.
Since more freezing is happening than melting, the water eventually all turns to ice.


This time we've warmed the water to 10°C.
Now the water molecules are moving more quickly, because they contain much more heat. These faster-moving molecules can't easily be captured by the surface of the ice, so not very many of them freeze. Freezing occurs at a slower rate than melting.
Because there are fewer water molecules being captured by the ice (being frozen) than there are ice molecules turning to water, the net result is that the amount of water increases, and the amount of ice decreases.
Since more melting is happening than freezing, the ice eventually all turns to water.

What we've learned so far is that when an ice cube is immersed in water, some of the ice is always melting, and some of the water is always freezing. If these are both happening at the same rate, the contents of the container are at the freezing/melting point. For pure water, this happens at 0°C.
If one of these processes is happening faster than the other, the water will completely freeze or the ice will completely melt.

So how does adding salt to the water affect the result? Let's look.


Here's the same container with the water at 0°C, only this time the water contains salt molecules. Adding salt disrupts the equilibrium.
The salt molecules dissolve in the water, but do not attach easily to the solid ice. There are fewer water molecules in the liquid because the some of the water has been replaced by salt. This means that the number of water molecules able to be captured by the ice (frozen) goes down, so the rate of freezing goes down.
The rate of melting of the ice is unchanged by the presence of the salt, so melting is now occurring faster than freezing. So the ice eventually melts.


In order to return the system to equilibrium, where the number of molecules of water that are freezing is equal to the number of ice molecules that are melting (this is the freezing/melting point), we must lower the temperature sufficiently to make the water molecules slow down enough so that more can attach themselves to the ice.
When the number of water molecules that are freezing equals the number of ice molecules that are melting, equilibrium will be reached.
In our example, this point is reached at -4°C, which would be the new freezing/melting point. The higher the concentration of salt, the lower the freezing point drops.

As ice begins to freeze out of the salt water, the fraction of water in the solution becomes even lower, and the freezing point drops further! However, this doesn't continue indefinitely. At some point the solution will become saturated with salt. This happens for salt in water at -21.1°C, which therefore is the coldest a saturated solution of salt and water can get.
At that temperature, the salt begins to crystallize out of solution, along with the ice, until the solution completely freezes. The frozen solution is a mixture of separate salt (NaCl·2H2O) crystals and ice crystals. This heterogeneous mixture is called a eutectic mixture.

Any foreign substance added to the water will cause a freezing point drop. For every mole of foreign particles dissolved in a kilogram of water, the freezing point goes down by roughly 1.8°C. Sugar, alcohol, or any chemical salt will also lower the freezing point and melt ice. Salt is used on roads and walkways because it is inexpensive and readily available.

You might suppose that larger molecules might inhibit the freezing of water molecules even more, and have a more dramatic effect on the freezing point. However, that isn't the case. Actual molecules are so tiny compared to the distance they move through the liquid that size is hardly a factor at all.

Now for the fun part! In order to make proper ice cream, which is smooth and creamy, you have to freeze it uniformly and quickly.

This is most easily done by using a mixture of ice, water, and salt, which will be at a temperature many degrees colder than 0°C.

Since you are using the salt/ice solution just for rapid cooling, and not eating it, you can use any kind of salt. Rock salt works well.

For your enjoyment, here are two recipes for home-made ice cream which use the principle of lowered freezing point.

I can't believe you've never heard this...Jesus, don't they teach science in school anymore? :D
 
what? adding salt to water makes it colder?

think about that for a second. i mean, unless the temperature of the salt is colder than the water......

It's not the salt that makes the water cooler. Salt water has a lower freezing point than plain water does. So the frozen Ice brings a salt water solution to a lower temperature than water. It's the ice that provides the temperature, not the salt.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_freezing_point_of_saltwater
 
It isn't that salt makes the water colder, it is that it ALLOWS the water to get colder by lowering the freezing point. There might be an additional factor in that it increases the conductivity of the water as well allowing for an even swifter transfer of heat. Though I'm not certain of that last point.
 
You can even chill a sixer in 3 minutes.



:D

I used to do it with my brewkettle in my sink before I had a wort chiller, it cut the shilling time down a bit.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It's not the salt that makes the water cooler. Salt water has a lower freezing point than plain water does. So the frozen Ice brings a salt water solution to a lower temperature than water. It's the ice that provides the temperature, not the salt.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_freezing_point_of_saltwater

Right, this would work if you took salt water and put it in a freezer to freeze.

Ice which is at 32F will not get any lower than 32F just by adding salt alone. You need to then put it in an environment that is lower than 32F.
 
This is most easily done by using a mixture of ice, water, and salt, which will be at a temperature many degrees colder than 0°C.

this is what i'm talking about. you can certainly take a salt water mixture down below 0F without freezing, no doubt, everyone should understand that.

but if you have a bucket of ice sitting outside in 75F weather and you dump salt, that water will not cool down
 
Back
Top