US reported Osama has been killed

[GilaMinumBeer]

I think it's more likely that challenges will come from the claims that he received funeral services in the Islamic tradition. Somehow I doubt it. He didn't deserve to be treated in Islamic tradition mind you (except for the ones who's tradition is to die inside a C4 vest) but I suspect the US Govt will be challenged to prove this to a community of religious fanatics.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

He didn't deserve to be treated in Islamic tradition

I disagree. Everybody deserves respect in death.

But, most importantly, what do you people think is gonna happen next? You think they're gonna say "congratulations, you got us", and surrender?
This guy's death, while deserved, will only make terrorists stronger than they were before, ESPECIALLY if his traditions weren't respected. Now they have a martyr. Now, a lot of people that normally wouldn't join them, will.
You think now the paranoia will stop? Keep dreaming! Now is when we will have to be more careful than ever, as they will retaliate.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I disagree. Everybody deserves respect in death.

But, most importantly, what do you people think is gonna happen next? You think they're gonna say "congratulations, you got us", and surrender?
This guy's death, while deserved, will only make terrorists stronger than they were before, ESPECIALLY if his traditions weren't respected. Now they have a martyr. Now, a lot of people that normally wouldn't join them, will.
You think now the paranoia will stop? Keep dreaming! Now is when we will have to be more careful than ever, as they will retaliate.

I think he deserves as much US respect in death as he deserved in life. And I am a Muslim. His 100 years of hell is his reward for his life and he's earned every one of them.

And yes, my fear is that this will only feed a more enthusiastic call to action from remaining Al-queada extremists with a new found "cause" to "honor" Osama. reports say that there is still a very active cell in Yemen that has not been getting their directives from Osama. So then, who?

Could be, and will continue to be, anyone with a grudge against the American freedom, the American Governement, or a daughter/son who immigrated to and married outside of religion. Or worse, and most likely, any ignorant (in the context of out of touch with worldly things) Muslim who hears only of Americans killing Muslims and no other context to indicate causation. "They" are everywhere.

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

I think he deserves as much US respect in death as he deserved in life. And I am a Muslim. His 100 years of hell is his reward for his life and he's earned every one of them.

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not Muslim, I'm Atheist, so, as far as I'm concerned, the moment a person dies, they become a piece of rotting meat, nothing more.
Yet, I think disrespecting the dead is not only morally wrong, but just downright stupid. I'm not an American, but as a human being, I want this bull**** war to end, once and for all. I want to live in peace. I don't want to spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder, just because somebody decided to get cute with a corpse.

But, most importantly, unlike Americans, I had to deal with terrorism before, until I was about 18 y.o., first, with communist terrorism, in the '60s and early '70s, and then, with US sanctioned terrorism, until '83. So, unlike most of you, I know what it is to live in fear, and I DON'T WANT to repeat the experience, ever again.

 

[bob1852]

I'm not an American, but as a human being, I want this bull**** war to end, once and for all. I want to live in peace.

Has there ever been peace in the history of the world?

 

[Inodoro_Pereyra]

Has there ever been peace in the history of the world?

I don't expect the whole World to have peace, but I'd sure appreciate to have it here.

 

[bob1852]

I don't expect the whole World to have peace, but I'd sure appreciate to have it here.

So, ending "this bull**** war, once and for all" is going to equal peace "here?"

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Well, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I'm not Muslim, I'm Atheist, so, as far as I'm concerned, the moment a person dies, they become a piece of rotting meat, nothing more.
Yet, I think disrespecting the dead is not only morally wrong, but just downright stupid. I'm not an American, but as a human being, I want this bull**** war to end, once and for all. I want to live in peace. I don't want to spend the rest of my life looking over my shoulder, just because somebody decided to get cute with a corpse.

But, most importantly, unlike Americans, I had to deal with terrorism before, until I was about 18 y.o., first, with communist terrorism, in the '60s and early '70s, and then, with US sanctioned terrorism, until '83. So, unlike most of you, I know what it is to live in fear, and I DON'T WANT to repeat the experience, ever again.

No, I think you misunderstand.

I neither advocate, with respect to Osama, a respectful religious rite of passage or a juvinile disembowlment of his corpse. In fact, he deserves neither.

Dumped overboard as fish food is most appropriate for him. No "in the name of Allah" or "Salaam". Just there one minute, gone the next. And would likely the ONLY thing done with him that could be construed as benificial.

 

[bernerbrau]

I'm happy he's gone, but I'm not rejoicing that he's dead. Personally, I'd have brought him around the world to stand before the families and friends of the tens of thousands of lives he's taken, and the additional thousands he's left permanently crippled and maimed. Force him to stare at their grieving faces and answer for his crimes. Let every last man, woman, and child that he has taken someone from say to his face how much hurt he has caused them. Then when we're done, throw him in the deepest, darkest prison cell in the middle of the Antarctic so he can't hurt anyone anymore and he can live out the rest of his days in solitude and defeat.

To me that's a far greater punishment (and far better service of justice) than a quick bullet to the head. I'm an atheist, so I don't believe we've sent him to hell. I just believe he's gone. There's no satisfaction there, no sense that any wrong has been put right (and really, how can the death of one man ever adequately pay for so many countless lives?), just a somber relief that one more evil man cannot hurt any more innocent people.

 

[arturo7]

There's no satisfaction there, no sense that any wrong has been put right (and really, how can the death of one man ever adequately pay for so many countless lives?), just a somber relief that one more evil man cannot hurt any more innocent people.

Well said.

 

[rycov]

Dumped overboard as fish food is most appropriate for him. No "in the name of Allah" or "Salaam". Just there one minute, gone the next. And would likely the ONLY thing done with him that could be construed as benificial.

i like this.

eat it bitch. you will be remembered untill these fish **** you out. the ones who will be remembered forever are those who lost their lives in the attacks or while fighting for our freedom.
+1 for the home team

 

[Zixxer10R]

I think he deserves as much US respect in death as he deserved in life. And I am a Muslim. His 100 years of hell is his reward for his life and he's earned every one of them.

And yes, my fear is that this will only feed a more enthusiastic call to action from remaining Al-queada extremists with a new found "cause" to "honor" Osama. reports say that there is still a very active cell in Yemen that has not been getting their directives from Osama. So then, who?

Could be, and will continue to be, anyone with a grudge against the American freedom, the American Governement, or a daughter/son who immigrated to and married outside of religion. Or worse, and most likely, any ignorant (in the context of out of touch with worldly things) Muslim who hears only of Americans killing Muslims and no other context to indicate causation. "They" are everywhere.

Aren't you sort of in the wrong forums? Muslims cannot consume alcohol.

 

[bernerbrau]

Aren't you sort of in the wrong forums? Muslims cannot consume alcohol.

Chill, dude. Gila's cool.

 

[ThickHead]

Muslims cannot consume alcohol.

I assure you, they can.

 

[Zixxer10R]

I assure you, they can.

My bad, they "should not".

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

I just believe he's gone. There's no satisfaction there, no sense that any wrong has been put right (and really, how can the death of one man ever adequately pay for so many countless lives?), just a somber relief that one more evil man cannot hurt any more innocent people.

What is important here is that he, openely, and repititiously, claimed that his actions were made "in the name of Allah" and for the "Good of Islam". And most notably that he shrouded himself under a loose interpretation of "Jihadism" as if he were protecting Islam.

Athiest or not, I propose that you should take satisfaction in that "He" believes he will be faced with Allah and made to account for his actions.

And while the Quran makes it very clear that "Allah is most merciful, most forgiving" you must also understand that Allahs "mercy" and "forgiveness" has many shapes, many forms. In a religious context, it could be viewed that allah has shown mercy to Osama in the form of a bullet to the brain rather than a slow, animalistic, torturous death. In the context that Allah has shown Osama forgiveness by expediting his sentence in the hereafter that he (Osama) claims to bestow his faith. And we, athiest and Muslim alike, can only hope that as Osama lived by the fire here (guns, bombs, etc...) that he will live by the fire (hellfire) in the hereafter as well.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Aren't you sort of in the wrong forums? Muslims cannot consume alcohol.

Nor can Christians by way of Corinthians, Galatians, Proverbs, Isaiah, and Hosea. Yet many still choose to in moderation.

So what is your point?

 

[Zixxer10R]

Nor can Christians by way of Corinthians, Galatians, Proverbs, Isaiah, and Hosea. Yet many still choose to in moderation.

So what is your point?

Not that i wish to get into a debate like this and thread-jack. But i've never heard that Christians are not supposed to consume alcohol. In fact, Jesus himself created and consumed wine.

 

[rycov]

so he was a home brewer? sweet

 

[bernerbrau]

Not that i wish to get into a debate like this and thread-jack. But i've never heard that Christians are not supposed to consume alcohol. In fact, Jesus himself created and consumed wine.

Ever been to the South? Lots of denominations down here ban alcohol consumption. But that's beside the point. There are 1.6 billion Muslims. Wouldn't one expect some variation in how they choose to observe their faith in the real world?

so he was a home brewer? sweet

Yup. Mad skills too. Primary to bottle, instantly.

 

[rycov]

yeah. the bible is filled with crazy stuff. if you read some of the old testament it says you have to (like its your duty) to stone gays and kill whores. and it gets specific about how you should kill some body if they sleep with they're relatives. so i'm totally not gonna do that. guess i'm just a sinner

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Not that i wish to get into a debate like this and thread-jack. But i've never heard that Christians are not supposed to consume alcohol. In fact, Jesus himself created and consumed wine.

Yes. Jesus did make wine from water. But you forget the context fo the time too. Water alone was unfit to drink. Table wines were not considered to be alcoholic in the same context that Strong drinks were. But todays society see it all as alcoholic.

So then, what non-alcoholic beverages do you suppose the Islamic pilgrims consumed along their Camel back caravans to and fro?

Date juice? In that heat, kept in autoclaved bladders? Do you see my point?

There is a clear distinction in every religious text that condemns drunkeness but no clear indication of what people actually drank on a daily basis.

 

[MeatyPortion]

Yes. Jesus did make wine from water. But you forget the context fo the time too. Water alone was unfit to drink. Table wines were not considered to be alcoholic in the same context that Strong drinks were. But todays society see it all as alcoholic.

So then, what non-alcoholic beverages do you suppose the Islamic pilgrims consumed along their Camel back caravans to and fro?

Date juice? In that heat, kept in autoclaved bladders? Do you see my point?

There is a clear distinction in every religious text that condemns drunkeness but no clear indication of what people actually drank on a daily basis.

Well put.

 

[ThickHead]

My bad, they "should not".

Sure they should, if they wish to. Choice is pretty handy that way.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Sure they should, if they wish to. Choice is pretty handy that way.

If more Radical Muslims drank, they'd be too drunk to remember where they left the keys.

 

[bernerbrau]

Yes. Jesus did make wine from water. But you forget the context fo the time too. Water alone was unfit to drink. Table wines were not considered to be alcoholic in the same context that Strong drinks were.

Oh dude... This is just some straight up BS that American teetotalers of the 18th and 19th century invented to discourage Christians from getting drunk.

The fact is people have been imbibing since antiquity. First-century Jews were no exception. You put grapes in an open container, and eventually they just naturally make it to 20%. There's no reason to suspect they cut it with water, which, as you already noted, was undrinkable.

EDIT: my bad, I re-read what you wrote and realized that's not what you were saying. You were saying that culturally, wine wasn't considered "booze". I have to wonder what was considered "strong drink", though, because distillation didn't come around for another 200 years.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

The fact is people have been imbibing since antiquity. First-century Jews were no exception. You put grapes in an open container, and eventually they just naturally make it to 20%. There's no reason to suspect they cut it with water, which, as you already noted, was undrinkable.

Exactly my point. But now, take that concept to the deserts of the Middle East, or to Israel. Not too much water to cut with even if you could.

And fast forward to today. Science in chemistry has learned that many a compound insoluable in water can be added to alcohol and Whalah! What was once a powder in water is now a solution in alcohol.

If the strictest prohibition of everything alcoholic were to be maintained then many a sniffling Muslim would have fallen to their death by the simplest of cold or flu. Yes, a stretch but a point nonetheless how rediculous the stance on alcohol is percieved both within Islamic circles and from the outside. When the true context is that overindulgence is what is to be avoided. And that has been proven to apply to anything.

Now, I suggest we get off of this detour and back to the Original Topic of what it is Osama has earned for himself? There is always a way to generate topics in more appropriate rooms for debate.

By the way, which is more appropriate, to rememeber the name of the evil and the impact it has inflicted on a society (thus by some twisted manner bestowing an honor of rememberance)? Or to forget completely the source, the implement, of said wrongs and only honor the names of those lost in service through a non descript period of time?

On this, I am torn. By declaring a name for what Osama has done (War of "blank", etc...) it gives those who revere his acts something to pride themselves on because it survives through history. But, in the same respect by not "memorializing" the period could also be construed by the suyrvivors of the lost as dishonorable to those lost, or disrespectable. Is it possible to memorialize this period in time in such a way that honors those lost in the fight without even a smidgeon of a mention of Osama to avoid any potential "claim to fame" for successive Al-Queada factions to feed pride from?

 

[bernerbrau]

Exactly my point. But now, take that concept to the deserts of the Middle East, or to Israel. Not too much water to cut with even if you could.

Right, I misread your statement originally. See my edit

And fast forward to today. Science in chemistry has learned that many a compound insoluable in water can be added to alcohol and Whalah! What was once a powder in water is now a solution in alcohol.

Well that's more of an Industrial Revolution discovery, so more 1700s/1800s than today, but I get your point. Certain medicines are just delivered more effectively in an alcoholic solution.

When the true context is that overindulgence is what is to be avoided. And that has been proven to apply to anything.

You also basically said that wine wasn't considered "booze" back then. I have not heard this before. What would have been stronger than wine though? You have to distill to get stronger and they didn't start distilling until 200 AD.

Incidentally I just found out from Wikipedia that ancient Arabs were one of the first cultures to distill alcohol. I gotta wonder what went wrong between then and now!

 

[bernerbrau]

If more Radical Muslims drank, they'd be too drunk to remember where they left the keys.

They should make booze on flights mandatory. Then no hijacker would be sober enough to hit a building.

 

[bob1852]

Yup. Mad skills too. Primary to bottle, instantly.

And the world's first batch of EdWort's apfelwein was born....