Unusual higher mash PH for the last couple of batches, why?

[bracconiere]

No you have that a little wrong you determine the raw alkalinity just before brewing and the titrate the excess alkalinity with hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. For the greater majority of pale to medium dark beers this is about 25 ppm for very dark beers 50ppm. The benefit of using those acids is that they are both compatible with the mineral needs of brewing process and you can predict exactly how much of each you need to add to the volume of brewing water to get the desired alkalinity. Unlike lactic acid and phosphoric, acids one of which precipitates Calcium and the other which taints the flavour of some beers if added in large quantities, the sulphate and chloride ions are both beneficial. Taking a pH reading of the raw water tells you little of its buffering capabilities. People rely on what their water companies tell them about their water with respect to alkalinity I do not I measure it before I brew. Last summer many of my brews would have been very different had I not estimated my brew water alkalinity. At times the alkalinity was 30+ percent higher than their average figure.
But that is not the issue here the point was made that knowing pH is a very important in brewing and it is not. The important issue is making sure that when you mash your grains the mash pH falls within a range that is suitable for the enzymic process. Knowing the alkalinity of the liquor before mashing allows you to mash safe in the knowledge that your mash will have a pH within that window. I am certainly not one for measuring the pH of my current brew to try to possibly influence my next brew bizarrely armed with only a mash pH from the previous mash to determine what went wrong. I posted a calculator earlier on it is a fool proof way of perfectly hitting the pH window for mashing.
Any way have a nice day and best wishes for all your brews.

i love your walls of text! seriously!


i would be curious where you're getting 'food grade' HCl though? or do you just use pool acid?

 

[mac_1103]

No you have that a little wrong you determine the raw alkalinity just before brewing and the titrate the excess alkalinity with hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level.

So in other words, you adjust the pH.

 

[bracconiere]

So in other words, you adjust the pH.

You sure do like to hear yourself talk (or read your own typing), don't you?

"hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. "

tag team! i'm still wondering where the food grade is coming from, when i need HCl, or sulphuric i have reach for pool acid and drain opener?

 

[mac_1103]

No, the drain opener is for raising the pH not lowering it.

 

[bracconiere]

No, the drain opener is for raising the pH not lowering it.

depends on what it's cloged with? i can get food grade lye or drain opener? 'depends' if i'm trying to make bagels or flush something......

 

[jambop]

"hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. "

tag team! i'm still wondering where the food grade is coming from, when i need HCl, or sulphuric i have reach for pool acid and drain opener?

You can buy a product here that is food grade and believe it or not is supplied to professional brewers here in France and the UK to reduce alkalinity in brewing liquor . It is a mix of 1molar Sulphuric acid and two molar hydrochloric acid using it you can reduce calcium carbonate to the exact ppm levels required while knowing exactly the increased levels of sulphate and chloride ions and without changing calcium ion levels. It is an outstanding product

 

[jambop]

"hydrochloric acid and sulphuric acid to a predetermined level. "

tag team! i'm still wondering where the food grade is coming from, when i need HCl, or sulphuric i have reach for pool acid and drain opener?

www.murphyandson.co.uk/
You want AMS

 

[bracconiere]

You can buy a product here that is food grade and believe it or not is supplied to professional brewers here in France and the UK to reduce alkalinity in brewing liquor . It is a mix of 1molar Sulphuric acid and two molar hydrochloric acid using it you can reduce calcium carbonate to the exact ppm levels required while knowing exactly the increased levels of sulphate and chloride ions and without changing calcium ion levels. It is an outstanding product

so if i get it right, a blend of concentrated pool acid at 36g/mol and 30% with water at 18g/mol, and conc sulphiric drain open at 98% at 98g/mol...would give me this?

 

[jambop]

so if i get it right, a blen of concentrated pool acid at 36g/mol, and conc sulphiric drain open at 98% at 98g/mol...would give me this?

I have worked in molecular biology for a big Pharma company for my entire working life prior to retiring and I would be more than confidents to use those acids to make the molarities required . Battery acid would be a good choice of Sulphuric acid as it is very pure by nature. I would have more worries about the air I breathe than any impurities in pool acid and battery acid.

 

[bracconiere]

I would have more worries about the air I breathe than any impurities in pool acid and battery acid.

hey man i extracted pectin from orange peels before with rubbing alcohol, and used drain opener to make jelly! best jam ever!


(here in the states though it'd probably have a prop 65 warning though, lol)

 

[tracer bullet]

Taking a pH reading of the raw water

For the 11 billionth time, no one is doing that. Stop getting hung up on this. Wow.

The important issue is making sure that when you mash your grains the mash pH falls within a range that is suitable for the enzymic process.

OK, so after all of this, you agree that mash pH is important.

 

[bracconiere]

all went downhill..

wait we started talking mols? and like equal mol and H+ to counter act them? and the ions left over after the reaction for taste?

 

[jambop]

For the 11 billionth time, no one is doing that. Stop getting hung up on this. Wow.



OK, so after all of this, you agree that mash pH is important.

Not when quibbling about a variation of 0.2 of a pH unit between mashes and both of those figures are well within the enzymes pH window not a bit. I gave up reading pH's because the system I use of knowing the alkalinity before starting the mash works so well there is no need . My experience says why bother testing something that you cannot change anyway?

 

[doug293cz]

Taking a pH reading of the raw water ...

For the 11 billionth time, no one is doing that. Stop getting hung up on this. Wow.

Actually, we regularly get questions on HBT from folks new to water chemistry and mash pH about their raw water pH. So, some people do think it's important, before they learn more.

The way I read @jambop 's posts, is that they are stating that starting water (brewing liquor) pH is unimportant, but what is important is the water alkalinity. I agree with this statement. They also appear to be claiming that a specific mash pH is not as important as being within an acceptable range. I don't think that should be controversial either. I don't believe they ever said mash pH was unimportant.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Time for a reminder to carry on your discussions with civility. Do not attack another poster's motives, heritage, language skills, etc. Stick to the topic, and don't make it about individuals.

Some posts were edited to delete snark aimed at other posters.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[jambop]

Actually, we regularly get questions on HBT from folks new to water chemistry and mash pH about their raw water pH. So, some people do think it's important, before they learn more.

The way I read @jambop 's posts, is that they are stating that starting water (brewing liquor) pH is unimportant, but what is important is the water alkalinity. I agree with this statement. They also appear to be claiming that a specific mash pH is not as important as being within an acceptable range. I don't think that should be controversial either. I don't believe they ever said mash pH was unimportant.

Brew on

You clearly see my point thank you . Of course I may not be putting it over as you have said it but you are bang on with what you said .
I am sorry to have offended anyone.

 

[Dancy]

It think it would be wise to say that is your opinion...

JMO = Just My Opinion

 

[Bobby_M]

from what i've read on these forums, most people drop a K on a RO system? lol

If by "K" you mean US$100 then yes.

 

[Miles_1111]

and don't leave us hangin on the results!

After calibrating the PH meter, I used it to test my brew of a porter, but the result seems more bizarre ( much more higher )...

The target mash PH is 5.45, as I wanted it a bit higher for dark beers, but the test result is 6.18 ( 19.9C, sample taken at 20mins after mixing grains and hot water)! After the 1 hour mash is done, the PH drop to 5.59, then after boiling and before fermentation it went down to 5.31, which is close to normal PH range at this stage I suppose.

Maybe the smaple testing is just an inconsistant measure itself or some problems with my water source... next time I will calibrate meter again and brew pale beer target mash PH is around 5.3, to see if I can get closer to the target like I used to.

 

[dmtaylor]

Is your pH meter able to hold calibration? When you measure the calibration solutions right now, is it reading much too high? If yes, then your probe might be shot.

 

[bracconiere]

remind me if the make model of this ph meter has been brought up?

he target mash PH is 5.45, as I wanted it a bit higher for dark beers, but the test result is 6.18

i'd be wondering if your probe is replaceable, because it may need to be swapped....

 

[Miles_1111]

Is your pH meter able to hold calibration? When you measure the calibration solutions right now, is it reading much too high? If yes, then your probe might be shot.

I test the PH meter with the three calibration solutions individually at round 25C/77F:
PH 4 solution ( my meter shows: 3.95-3.98)
PH 6.86 solution ( my meter shows: 6.78)
PH 9.18 solution ( my meter shows: 8.92)

It is actually reading a bit lower... Are these differences a big problem? Or this is within an acceptable range? Also I remember when I did the calibration, each solution took several minutes to get it done. Quite a long time. It this normal?

 

[bracconiere]

PH 4 solution ( my meter shows: 3.95-3.98)
PH 6.86 solution ( my meter shows: 6.78)
PH 9.18 solution ( my meter shows: 8.92)

It is actually reading a bit lower... Are these differences a big problem?

5.3, then I can get somewhere between 5.25 or 5.35, not too far out. However, for my last 3 batches (a pale ale, a Hazy IPA and a saison) I got mash PH much higher than my target PH. These 3 batches are 5.43, 5,49 and 5.59 individually,

well then yes? and when calibrating you only want to use two points, neutral and the direction from it you want to take "i believe"


(i don't want to calculate logarythmically how many H+ ions that makes..... lol )

 

[Miles_1111]

remind me if the make model of this ph meter has been brought up?



i'd be wondering if your probe is replaceable, because it may need to be swapped....

It is a SMART SENSOR PH818 which I got online from a local supplier. I will chech with supplier if I can get the probe replaced.

 

[bracconiere]

It is a SMART SENSOR PH818 which I got online from a local supplier. I will chech with supplier if I can get the probe replaced.

damn $13, i don't know if i'd have faith in it to begin with? not sure? maybe like electronics the price has come down.....