Understanding hop stands

[brewprint]

For my next IPA my plan was to add the flame out additions after I cooled the wort to 160F instead of at direct flame out. Then I was going to let it sit for 15 minutes or so, then cool the wort to pitching temps.

Would there really be that much of a difference if I just threw them in at flame out if it takes 20 minutes to chill the wort?

Looking for experienced opinions on hop flavor.

 

[philjohnwilliams]

When I do a hopstand I throw the hops in at flameout then cover the kettle and let it sit for 30 minutes. I tried cooling to 180 then adding the hops (again with a 30 min stand) but I found that I got less aroma this way. After fermentation, I dry hop with the same hops I used in the hopstand. Six months (of cold storage) later, the beer is still nice and hoppy. I know some people swear by lower temp hopstands, but I have found that hotter works better for me, though perhaps a longer stand at a lower temp might work just as well.

 

[Natdavis777]

Interesting question as I have an American wheat where I did just as you suggested. I threw 3oz in (10 gal) at flameout, covered, and recirculated/cooled. We will how the end result plays out.

My IPA I have on tap however received a generous hop burst from 15min-0min, then cooled, added 5oz @175F for 30 min, which I kept the whirlpool going, but shut my water off so not to cool the beer (kettle>pump>plate chiller>kettle). The end result of this beer was a generous aroma and flavor.

 

[brewprint]

Thanks for the replies.

I don't have a method for recirculation or a whirlpool besides stirring by hand. I would like to get the most flavor/aroma as I can out of the hops.

My plan was to just ditch the 10 and 1 minute additions and just do the 5 with a lot at the flameout.

I can see that letting them sit in hotter water would extract more than if it was reduced to 180 or whatever. Isn't it the boil off that reduces the aroma/flavor and not the heat?

 

[Smellyglove]

I just wrote a long post which dissapeared..

You'll actually end up with less aroma when added after a boil comparing to cooler temps, but what you extract goes quicker. It's because of the flash points of hop oils. Myrcene has a flash point of about 40C.

If you add amarillo (which contains a lot myrcene) to a hot wort you'll lose a lot of the amarillo aroma because myrcene vaporizes. You've probably noticed that you get much more when dryhopping, thats because you're adding the hop to beer which is cooler than the oils flash point.

 

[hanuswalrus]

I've been told that hop stands work better at temps around 190F.. however, I have only used a hop stand on 1 batch which is still fermenting, so I have yet to see how well it worked.

 

[bobbrews]

The majority of the pleasant aroma we enjoy from Pacific NW hops is gained from the dryhop. You get some aroma from post-boil additions as well. Post-boil additions can be anything adding to the kettle from flameout (208-212 F) typically to the mid 100s (F).

Adding hops at flameout will isomerize the alpha acids, which lends added bitterness, especially if you hold it there for quite some time. These chemical reactions occur slower at cooler temperatures, so hop utilization goes down considerably at 200 F compared to 212 F. However, isomerization grinds to a halt around 170 F. More of the delicate, aromatic hop oils will be present if you implement an extended hopstand with a ton of aromatic hops around 160-170F.

In any case, "heat" destroys aroma. Time and temperature play a big role toward this fact. I like sub 170F hopstands for the optimized aroma. However, I like flameout/whirlpool additions for the added bitterness that is sometimes required to avoid a juicy/fruity IPA that can be perceived as sweet on the palate. You're still getting plenty of aroma post-boil either way. The variables at play here are how much hops you use at this point and how long you allow them to stand.

The method I take now is 75-minute boils, with HopShot (concentrated hop extract) added 15 minutes after the boil start, for a full-rolling boil 60 minute boil. No hops are actually boiled. Follow this up with a large flameout addition and let that cool down to 170F over the course of 20-30 minutes. After which, I add more hops and hold it in the 160-170F range for another 20-30 minutes. Proceed to cool to the low 60s, remove as much trub as possible, rack and pitch your yeast. When it comes time to dryhop, implement a two or three stage dryhop with 4-5 days of dryhop contact with the beer during each stage. My dryhop additions contain about 40-50% of my total recipe hops by weight, and for an IPA, I never use less than 8 oz. minimum total hops for a 5 gallon batch. I usually hover around 7.0-8.5% abv and 10-14 oz. total hops.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

I too prefer lower temp hop stands. Cool to around 180F-ish, throw in hop stand additions, stir the bajesus out of it and leave it for 20 minutes. Mostly because I like to control the IBUs its hard to do this when you add immediately at flame out (isomerization still goes on until 180F-ish). Not that having my beer mathmatically perfect is important, but I usually only have a single bittering addition at 60 minutes to bring me 98% of the way to my desired IBUs, then maybe 2 other additions at sub-5-minute mark and then the hopstand/whirlpool addition so I don't want a ton of additional bitterness from the hopstand/whirlpool.

I should add theres about 10-15 minutes from when I turn off the flame and when I start the water in my IC so I could potentially get a lot more IBUs than I want due to the time the beer spends above 200F.

 

[brewprint]

Okay thank you very much for those posts. I'm only looking for flavor and no added bitterness. My plan is to make a 6.75% abv brew with about 75 IBUs.

In order to achieve this I believe that I need to do a steep/whirlpool at <180F for around 20-30 minutes.

Thanks again for those replies. I'll probably just steep instead of stirring to avoid excessive trub. I just kegged a 3.5 gallon batch in my 3 gallon keg and only got about 2.5 gallons. That could just be I calculated my batch size wrong or put the wrong marks on the frosting bucket. I hate losing beer.

 

[Clarke]

I like sub 170F hopstands for the optimized aroma. However, I like flameout/whirlpool additions for the added bitterness that is sometimes required to avoid a juicy/fruity IPA that can be perceived as sweet on the palate. You're still getting plenty of aroma post-boil either way. The variables at play here are how much hops you use at this point and how long you allow them to stand.

What is the optimal time and temp. for flavor? I still don't have a good understanding for control of flavors.

 

[bobbrews]

I believe that I need to do a steep/whirlpool at <180F for around 20-30 minutes.

Do both. Flameout and Warm Hopstand. You won't regret it.

What is the optimal time and temp. for flavor? I still don't have a good understanding for control of flavors.

When discussing pleasant hop character in an IPA, flavor and aroma are very much interconnected. Think of them as one entity: flavoraroma. You can't taste without your sense of smell. Therefore, optimal aroma time and optimal flavor time are one and the same.

 

[Smellyglove]

I feel like you have to go down to 140F to not extract much bitterness. Like someone over here mentioned, its relative to time. My 140F number is relative to 45min WP addition

 

[Clarke]

When discussing pleasant hop character in an IPA, flavor and aroma are very much interconnected. Think of them as one entity: flavoraroma. You can't taste without your sense of smell. Therefore, optimal aroma time and optimal flavor time are one and the same.

Thanks, kind of what I thought but really didn't know.

 

[bobbrews]

I feel like you have to go down to 140F to not extract much bitterness. Like someone over here mentioned, its relative to time. My 140F number is relative to 45min WP addition

There is certainly zero alpha acid isomerization going on at 140F, and hence no bitterness is gained from a hopstand that low... no matter how long you hold it there for (within reason). Isomerization stops around 170-ish F.

 

[Weezy]

Do both. Flameout and Warm Hopstand. You won't regret it.

Agreed. Many flavors are only created through actively cooking the hops. You will get a lot of flavor from sub-boil but greater than sub-isomerization temps.

 

[Smellyglove]

There is certainly zero alpha acid isomerization going on at 140F, and hence no bitterness is gained from a hopstand that low... no matter how long you hold it there for (within reason). Isomerization stops around 170-ish F.

When I first started doing hop stands I started @ boil temp, then 175-ish, then 167F, then 158F and now I'm down to 140F. 140 is where I first noticed I didn't pull out bitterness. But, I'm a homebrewer, I don't have the tools to actually measure it, so it might just be my palate on certain days. Might also be that the temp during WP is not bang on what I try to achieve.

But it was a big drop in percieved bitterness from 167 and down, as you say (170F)

 

[Calichusetts]

I just do all of the above options. Just a FWH for bitterness, then three flameout additions. First is directly at flameout, stirring pretty consistently. Once the temp hits 185, add the second, stirring. Final one at 160. Big stir them prep for chilling.

Totaled, its about a 20-30 minute hop stand. I do a double dry hop addition as well. Last IPA finally broke my threshold, which is hard to do. Just way to hoppy for the first few weeks. Chewable hop profile with an amazing aroma

 

[Clarke]

@Smellglove

Love the name, worried how you came up with it.

 

[hanuswalrus]

Do you guys use a hop bag for all of your whirlpool/hop stand additions?

I did for the one time I did a hop stand, and I'm just wondering, do you pull all of the hop oils that contribute to aroma when using a hop bag? Or do some of the pellets in the middle of the bag not get utilized as they don't quite make contact with the wort?

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Do you guys use a hop bag for all of your whirlpool/hop stand additions?

I did for the one time I did a hop stand, and I'm just wondering, do you pull all of the hop oils that contribute to aroma when using a hop bag? Or do some of the pellets in the middle of the bag not get utilized as they don't quite make contact with the wort?

I dont, not anymore. More so because of previous brews for regular additions during the boil I used to use bags, and beers I intended to come off fairly balanced, came off slightly sweeter than I expected. I knew this wasn't due to attenuation because I would reach expected attenuation with the yeast I used, it could've been other factors but I switched back to just throwing them in loose and I ended up getting results more in line with what I expect. Not scientific at all, but sometimes expected results count for more than scientific results.

Usually after the main whirlpool/hopstand time I just let the wort sit and cool with the IC running and will give another 5-10 minutes of just sitting there, you'd be surprised how much trub/hoppy material will settle out.

 

[bobbrews]

Bagging hops is a matter of preference. Figure what works better for your system.

For dryhopping, I advise tossing the pellet hops loose in the primary. Try adding/removing a swollen bag of 3-6 oz. pellet dryhops from the narrow neck of a carboy and you'll quickly see why. When it comes time to rack, just wrap a mesh bag around the auto-siphon to avoid sucking all of that trub into your bottling bucket.

I would personally never bag leaf hops since there seem to be no advantages, but I do see some merit in bagging pellet hops for the boil and post-boil additions. It can help you cut down on the trub that ends up in your primary with no apparent effect on isomerization or flavor/aroma.

 

[ThreeSheetz]

Wow, what a great thread! I've been brewing Ales for a couple of years now, getting my techniques down as far a controlling fermentation temps and being able to repeat results and so forth but I never really knew about hop stand. I guess I thought it was a "thing" like a hop back or hop torpedo or something. I do use dry hopping for certain brews like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale clone and folks love it but the hop flavor always seemed a little green-harsh to me. A Red Hook ESB clone is my most recent brew and used a new to me hopping schedule and man is that beer GOOD. Delicious flavor and aroma. This is how it's hopped:
10.5 g. Nugget (13.5% alpha acid) @ 60 min.
0.5 oz. Tettnang (3.8% alpha acid) @ 15 min.
0.5 oz. Willamette (5.3% alpha acid) @ 15 min.
1.5 oz. Tettnang (3.8% alpha acid); steep 5 min. post boil
1.5 oz. Willamette (5.3% alpha acid) ; steep 5 min. post boil

Man Oh Man is this beer good! Now I can't wait to try several of the techniques you've all mentioned. Thanks a BUNCH for helping me to understand this!!!

 

[Smellyglove]

@Smellglove

Love the name, worried how you came up with it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smell_the_Glove

I'm a soundguy, this is one of my favorite movies of all time

On a scale from 1-10, this movie is an 11.

 

[brewprint]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; another advantage of doing a hopstand around 150-170F is that the risk of infection isn't there due to that high of temp. Just looking for some assurance about the risk of infection.

 

[Smellyglove]

170 is closer to the safe-spot.

 

[mtnagel]

The majority of the pleasant aroma we enjoy from Pacific NW hops is gained from the dryhop. You get some aroma from post-boil additions as well. Post-boil additions can be anything adding to the kettle from flameout (208-212 F) typically to the mid 100s (F).

Adding hops at flameout will isomerize the alpha acids, which lends added bitterness, especially if you hold it there for quite some time. These chemical reactions occur slower at cooler temperatures, so hop utilization goes down considerably at 200 F compared to 212 F. However, isomerization grinds to a halt around 170 F. More of the delicate, aromatic hop oils will be present if you implement an extended hopstand with a ton of aromatic hops around 160-170F.

In any case, "heat" destroys aroma. Time and temperature play a big role toward this fact. I like sub 170F hopstands for the optimized aroma. However, I like flameout/whirlpool additions for the added bitterness that is sometimes required to avoid a juicy/fruity IPA that can be perceived as sweet on the palate. You're still getting plenty of aroma post-boil either way. The variables at play here are how much hops you use at this point and how long you allow them to stand.

The method I take now is 75-minute boils, with HopShot (concentrated hop extract) added 15 minutes after the boil start, for a full-rolling boil 60 minute boil. No hops are actually boiled. Follow this up with a large flameout addition and let that cool down to 170F over the course of 20-30 minutes. After which, I add more hops and hold it in the 160-170F range for another 20-30 minutes. Proceed to cool to the low 60s, remove as much trub as possible, rack and pitch your yeast. When it comes time to dryhop, implement a two or three stage dryhop with 4-5 days of dryhop contact with the beer during each stage. My dryhop additions contain about 40-50% of my total recipe hops by weight, and for an IPA, I never use less than 8 oz. minimum total hops for a 5 gallon batch. I usually hover around 7.0-8.5% abv and 10-14 oz. total hops.

Great post. Two questions.

Why do you add the hop shot 15 minutes after the boil starts?

And how do you cool slowly down to 170 over 20-30 minutes and what's the advantage? With an immersion chiller, you can chill to 170 in less than a minute. Do you just stop the flame and it cools that fast?

 

[bobbrews]

Why do you add the hop shot 15 minutes after the boil starts?

To ensure an excellent hot break with no boilovers, slightly more depth to the malt character, and it is a fool-proof way to make sure you're adding the hop shot to a vigorous full rolling boil, as it is intended. I also find that boiling the hops longer than one hour will start generating sharp, undesirable and unpleasant flavors. Lastly, the amount of IBUs gained at 90 minutes vs. 75 minutes vs. 60 minutes is rather inconsequential.

And how do you cool slowly down to 170 over 20-30 minutes and what's the advantage? With an immersion chiller, you can chill to 170 in less than a minute. Do you just stop the flame and it cools that fast?

I reverted back to using an ice bath in a deep stainless steel sink. Sometimes I use my chiller if its a hot day and the temperature won't budge. But I find that the ice bath works better with extended hopstands. At least for me, it ensures I'm within a target temperature range for about 20-30 minutes, and I can control the amount of ice to facilitate quicker cooling. Don't be worried if it takes 45-60 minutes to cool down. The old adage of "cooling down the wort as quickly as possible" to avoid spoilage has been busted. As long as you are careful and your process is sanitary, then you should be just fine.

 

[Brettomomyces]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; another advantage of doing a hopstand around 150-170F is that the risk of infection isn't there due to that high of temp. Just looking for some assurance about the risk of infection.

As long as it stays above 140 you're golden. I do food safety for a small hospital

 

[Soyben]

Here is an interesting article I read awhile back on hop stands.

https://byo.com/hops/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

As long as it stays above 140 you're golden. I do food safety for a small hospital

As well, so long as you arent mouth-breathing directly onto the wort when you add the whirlpool/hopstand additions, take the lid off, dump, put lid back on. It'll be so quick theres not much chance for junk to get in there.

(never had DMS issues, there shouldn't be much left in the wort after 60+ minute boil so leaving a lid on while cooling is good for sanitary practice and there should be no issues with DMS)