Unboxing the Nano from CO Brewing

[pretzelb]

Going better today. Used a longer hose and now the pump is pushing at about 75% with decent flow visible at the top. Tuning improved the temp changes. Bru'n water got me close to pH target. Not sure about efficiency yet. Hoping the whirlpool does better this time.

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[molson]

This is my first experience with a PID controller but I can't imagine they are very different. My guess is any system that uses a pump and a controller is going to require some getting used to and adjustment. I suspect most people leave the gory details out when they talk about the adjustments. But maybe someone knows about a system that requires no work at all?

I just would think that it would come already tuned and calbriated. I'm also considering the BrewEasy and haven't seen anything online or in the manual about having to manually tune the PID on it. I really like this this system just has one pot, but this is kind of scaring me off now.

 

[pretzelb]

I just would think that it would come already tuned and calbriated. I'm also considering the BrewEasy and haven't seen anything online or in the manual about having to manually tune the PID on it. I really like this this system just has one pot, but this is kind of scaring me off now.

Hopefully one of the electrical experts can chime in. I would think all controllers need to be tuned. And for someone to do that for you they'd have to fill it with water and run the cycle. And then dry it and package it. I can't see anyone doing that.

Edit - FWIW, to tune a PID you fill with water, pick a water temperature, then press and hold one button until a certain light turns on. That's it. Hardest part is reading the manual while using your phone.

 

[TexasWine]

Hopefully one of the electrical experts can chime in. I would think all controllers need to be tuned. And for someone to do that for you they'd have to fill it with water and run the cycle. And then dry it and package it. I can't see anyone doing that.

Edit - FWIW, to tune a PID you fill with water, pick a water temperature, then press and hold one button until a certain light turns on. That's it. Hardest part is reading the manual while using your phone.

Not an electrical expert, but I did take a process control class in college and work with process control engineers on a somewhat frequent basis to help figure out the best way to control process systems. Here's what I THINK I know...

With a PID control loop, the optimal parameters for P, I and D are very specific to that system. And when I say system, in this context I mean not only your equipment (dimensions, wetted surface area per volume,etc.), but also the volume of water used, the amount of grain used, the type of grain used, the rate of circulation, length of hoses, atmospheric temperature, wind speed, maybe others.

When your grain bill changes, the optimal values for P, I and D change. When you different amounts of water and different water/grist ratios, same thing. When it's especially cold/hot/windy outside, if you have lower circulation rates during the mash (I run my pump throttled way back).

But, what most folks do in the home brewing world is run the auto-tune feature using only water, most likely with their pumps running wide open, maybe even in their climate controlled kitchen. The controller does its thing and assigns the values based on that. And it would control beautifully if that's how we brewed beer.

Technically, optimal P, I and D values are different for each brew session. But hopefully the values arrived at during the auto-tune, with water only, will get us close enough so that we don't over/under shoot the temps we want. We can get closer to optimal P, I and D values by running the auto-tune feature during a brew session with a "typical" grain bill. Again, it won't be perfect for every brew session, but it would be closer than just using water and running everything wide open!

Hopefully this helps. And hopefully someone with more expertise than me will chime in if I've said anything that's off base.

 

[pretzelb]

Ack. 2nd brew day didn't go as bad as first but still not hitting numbers. I need to collect my notes and try and get help on dialing in where I went wrong. Hopefully the beer tastes good because it smelled great.

 

[jready]

Ack. 2nd brew day didn't go as bad as first but still not hitting numbers. I need to collect my notes and try and get help on dialing in where I went wrong. Hopefully the beer tastes good because it smelled great.

I'm sure it will! Where did you find the manual for the PID? Guessing I will need to auto tune mine when it arrives!

 

[pretzelb]

I'm sure it will! Where did you find the manual for the PID? Guessing I will need to auto tune mine when it arrives!

I just found one on the Auber site that looked the same.

Tuning should definitely help. I should have done it while I was first running a test with water to clean.

 

[pretzelb]

Ack. 2nd brew day didn't go as bad as first but still not hitting numbers. I need to collect my notes and try and get help on dialing in where I went wrong. Hopefully the beer tastes good because it smelled great.

OK, I think I found one problem. I might be underestimating my losses from hoses and the plate chiller but the big one was the grain absorption rate for BIAB. The defaults assume you squeeze the bag and thus get more back than normal methods. I can't squeeze the mesh basket so the estimates were off by around 1/2 gallon. My boil off rate of 1.75 might be a bit low too.

 

[jlongstreet]

Hey @pretzelb, when doing a 5 gallon batch in the 20 gallon kettle, how much wort is under the basket? I got my kettle/basket last week (not the rest of the system) and I'm worried I effectively won't be able to do low gravity 5 gallon batches.

 

[jcav]

Glad to see you are starting to dial in your system a little more. It will take a few brews but you will get there! Auto tune worked for me and my system ( I have a Kal clone and have pid's also) and my temps never over shoot and are always held at the temp I set it at once it gets there. Also using a longer hose in the mash tun, to go around the circumference of the kettle, will help to keep the wort recirculating through the entire grain bed. Keep plugging away at it, and lots of luck!

John

 

[jready]

OK, I think I found one problem. I might be underestimating my losses from hoses and the plate chiller but the big one was the grain absorption rate for BIAB. The defaults assume you squeeze the bag and thus get more back than normal methods. I can't squeeze the mesh basket so the estimates were off by around 1/2 gallon. My boil off rate of 1.75 might be a bit low too.

According to the spreadsheet Tim sent me boil off rate should be 1.81 on the 20 gallon system. Grain absorption rate is .1.

 

[pretzelb]

Hey @pretzelb, when doing a 5 gallon batch in the 20 gallon kettle, how much wort is under the basket? I got my kettle/basket last week (not the rest of the system) and I'm worried I effectively won't be able to do low gravity 5 gallon batches.

If it's really low gravity you might want to do 10g. The kettle is about 18.75" tall. The basket is about 15" tall. That should leave 3.75" below the basket but it looks less. The element reaches up to 2" high in the kettle.

I guess it depends on how much water you use.

 

[30Bones]

I still plan on doing 6 or 12 into the fermenter once I get this to ensure I get 5 into a keg.

 

[pretzelb]

I still plan on doing 6 or 12 into the fermenter once I get this to ensure I get 5 into a keg.

One thing I need to nail down is the liquid height. I am going to get a stainless steel ruler and start taking notes on the levels. I was close last time but I forgot you need to adjust for temperature. I found a formula for that, just need to include it in my brew day.

 

[30Bones]

Does it not have a site glass or etched gallon marks inside the kettle?

 

[pretzelb]

Does it not have a site glass or etched gallon marks inside the kettle?

No etching. It does have a sight glass (not labeled of course) but I think the ruler might be more accurate. For me it seems easier to read. Once I'm more confident in the levels on the sight glass I need to get some peel and stick numbers. Right now I just have tape as a temp solution.

In hindsight, an etched kettle for height (inches) is probably ideal. The sight glass is great to make sure the pump doesn't starve during mash.

 

[jlongstreet]

I'm likely going to etch mine with gallon markers, although that won't really help in the mash, since you won't be able to see them through the basket.

 

[jready]

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My wife texted me a pic, mine arrived! Looks a little beat up. Flying back from a business trip can't wait to open it up.

 

[Eamster]

Yikes. Hope all is well on the inside.

 

[pretzelb]

My wife texted me a pic, mine arrived! Looks a little beat up. Flying back from a business trip can't wait to open it up.

Looks different than my rig. Hope it is all good.

 

[jready]

Looks different than my rig. Hope it is all good.

It is a little different, I guess mine is the "Home" edition so the stand is a little more compact and a few different valves on the kettle. I'm hoping to get some time to mess with it this AM before work, if I do I will send pics. Luckily all seems well on the inside of the box.

 

[dmcman73]

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My wife texted me a pic, mine arrived! Looks a little beat up. Flying back from a business trip can't wait to open it up.

That's not a little beaten up...that's "it was dropped from the plane, dragged across the floor and the UPS driver kicked it to your door because he was pissed off for having to deliver that big box" beaten up.

Hopefully it's all good. You should have someone open it up ASAP since you're not home to inspect it, that way if there is damage you can put a claim in with UPS or whatever shipping company that was used.

EDIT: Never mind, just saw your post above that you've already opened it and all was good.

 

[jready]

That's not a little beaten up...that's "it was dropped from the plane, dragged across the floor and the UPS driver kicked it to your door because he was pissed off for having to deliver that big box" beaten up.

Hopefully it's all good. You should have someone open it up ASAP since you're not home to inspect it, that way if there is damage you can put a claim in with UPS or whatever shipping company that was used.

EDIT: Never mind, just saw your post above that you've already opened it and all was good.

Ha! Glad you sent it anyway it was funny. I got some time today to open it and start to put it together. Mine is the Nano Brewer Home edition so it is a little more compact than the original one shown. I will post some pics, as beat up as the packing was all was good inside. My wife said they thought there was a dead body inside it when they saw it!

 

[jready]

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[jready]

I was missing two pieces, well I say missing, they were marked on the invoice as being shipped separately. They should arrive Friday. Now I just need to get my electrician back out to finish up his part and I will be ready to brew. Hopefully weekend after this one.

 

[30Bones]

Is the plan to leave it sitting that low on the "stand"? If so how do you plan to prime the pump?

 

[jready]

Is the plan to leave it sitting that low on the "stand"? If so how do you plan to prime the pump?

I haven't completely decided. It is kinda low. The legs look like the unscrew but probably just to level. I might use blocks to raise it 12 inches or so you don't need more than that I would think. I want to be aware of how heavy it will be when full!

 

[jready]

I will say I like the smaller footprint of mine a lot. It seems very sturdy while not being super heavy.

 

[jready]

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I would love suggestions on an elegant affordable way to elevate this. Cinder blocks may not do it justice

 

[Howhownow]

One simple and functional way may be to get some big ol' locking casters. That will give you 6-8" of height, plus, you know, wheels.