Two IPAs taste exactly the same

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oylerck

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Why would these two beers taste the same? I have been using gelatin in the keg while carbing but it seems to take the dry hop aroma away so I may stop.

Temp control is decent but not perfect, corner in basement stays around 65f. (Have an old pop cooler now with a thermostat so that will change) I have a 2-vessel RIMs on a turkey fryer burner. I chilled both in a bathtub full of ice. I dump all the trub into the fermenter and siphon out all but the gunk to the keg.

Also force carbing, but I don't think I'm tasting over carbing bitterness.

Almost all Galena IPA(working title..)
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491217142.056140.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491217154.602011.jpg

Trident IPA
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491217180.988223.jpgView attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1491217189.845877.jpg

Is it the s-05? The galena? I Keep hops in the freezer and yeast in the fridge. I rehydrate the yeast in 90 degree water and wait to pitch until temp is 70 or lower.
 
The yeast is the same, both are dry hopped with about the same amount of Cascade, and it has the same malts is slightly different percentages. I don't see the OG/FG for the 2nd IPA but I'm willing to bet they were close. I wouldn't expect them to taste that different. Maybe there are some subtle differences that you aren't picking up. I would expect the 2nd beer to taste slightly more bitter from higher IBUs.
 
I would think the second one would have a slightly more intense citrus flavor, but both about the same flavors. I would try a different grain bill, as in no crystal in 1 of them...maybe something like:

13# marris otter
1.5# Vienna
.6# carapils (or just omit this gain completely)

and using the same hops as in the second one, try switching it up to this:
1oz Gelena at 60
1oz cascade & simcoe at 15
1oz cascade & 1.5 simcoe at 0

2oz cascade in dry hop (7-10 days)
 
Try just a bittering addition and the rest of the hops at flameout and steeping. I feel like boiling the hops takes away from the flavor and aroma even if boiling just for a couple minutes. With the recipe's above I feel like all your tasting is the bitterness from the hops and the flavor and aroma from the Cascade dry hop. Since you dry hopped with Cascade on both recipe's I think that's the flavor and aroma your picking up on.
 
plazola86 said:
Try just a bittering addition and the rest of the hops at flameout and steeping. I feel like boiling the hops takes away from the flavor and aroma even if boiling just for a couple minutes. With the recipe's above I feel like all your tasting is the bitterness from the hops and the flavor and aroma from the Cascade dry hop. Since you dry hopped with Cascade on both recipe's I think that's the flavor and aroma your picking up on.
Click to expand...


I don't taste any cascade. Not sure if the gelatin knocked it out. Honestly I taste nothing but malt and bitterness.
 
Redtab78 said:
I would think the second one would have a slightly more intense citrus flavor, but both about the same flavors. I would try a different grain bill, as in no crystal in 1 of them...maybe something like:

13# marris otter
1.5# Vienna
.6# carapils (or just omit this gain completely)

and using the same hops as in the second one, try switching it up to this:
1oz Gelena at 60
1oz cascade & simcoe at 15
1oz cascade & 1.5 simcoe at 0

2oz cascade in dry hop (7-10 days)
Click to expand...


Why not crystal?
 
A couple of things here:

In both recipes, you're hopping a lot at the very beginning parts of the boil (60 min, 45 min, 30 min additions). You're not going to get any flavor from these hops, only bitterness, and it's a large amount of bitterness. A lot of people like to get to about 50% of their desired IBU with a FWH or 60 minute charge, and then get the rest from either late boil hop additions or whirlpooling, this way you'll get much more flavor from your hops instead of straight up bitterness.

Galena is much better known as a bittering hop than a flavor/aroma hop. Not saying it can be used as much, but is it possible that it isn't really that big or bold in that area? Maybe someone else can comment on late-addition Galena characteristics.

In your first beer you have a flameout Galena addition, and then a 14 day cascade dry hop; 14 days is way too long and I suspect any real aroma from the cascade dry hop may be diminished in this length of time. 3-5 day dry hop seems to be the golden timeframe. In the second beer everything 15 minutes and below are Cascade hops, including dry hops, so I'm not surprised that it's very similar to the first beer which is essentially the same.

I suspect if you start increasing your hopping in the last 15 minutes of your boils (and decreasing early-boil additions) you'll start to notice the differences you're looking for. More flavor and aroma, less straight up bitterness.
 
oylerck said:
Why not crystal?
Click to expand...

maybe its just me here, but I have found that using crystal of the same lovibond in multiple recipes gives the same caramel type of flavor that dominates the malt flavor. I have about 4 recipes that all call for around 1# or crystal 20, all very different hop schedules, but if I brew them and have more than 1 on tap, I get the same kind of "same flavor" result ESPECIALLY if I am dry hopping with the same hops.

I mean think about it for just a second, most of your aroma comes from the dry hops, in your case your using cascade for both, so your getting the same aroma....usually what we smell is what we taste as well, so your getting the same there from the cascade......then add in the caramel flavors from the crystal (which are just about the same amount here), so your getting the caramel flavor profile in both.....and then you have about the same in bitterness (one being higher), but again, we can only taste so much bitterness.
You see these double IPA's like in Biermunchers "tits up" that is well over 100IBU, but we cant really taste that "extra" IBU's.

In all, while there are subtle differences in both of your recipies, they are (almost) the same, so naturally when side by side, they will be very similar.

You can always make one of those, then do something else, like a porter, or something different then an IPA, and then make your second recipe, and I bet you will taste a difference then, but it will be small differences.


OR, completely swap out the cascade from the dry hop in one of them, and you will get a different aroma/flavor. Try making one as you have it, and the second one with something like galaxy, or mosaic as the dry hop and VIOLA!! 2 different tasting beers.
 
lstewart89 said:
A couple of things here:

In both recipes, you're hopping a lot at the very beginning parts of the boil (60 min, 45 min, 30 min additions). You're not going to get any flavor from these hops, only bitterness, and it's a large amount of bitterness. A lot of people like to get to about 50% of their desired IBU with a FWH or 60 minute charge, and then get the rest from either late boil hop additions or whirlpooling, this way you'll get much more flavor from your hops instead of straight up bitterness.

Galena is much better known as a bittering hop than a flavor/aroma hop. Not saying it can be used as much, but is it possible that it isn't really that big or bold in that area? Maybe someone else can comment on late-addition Galena characteristics.

In your first beer you have a flameout Galena addition, and then a 14 day cascade dry hop; 14 days is way too long and I suspect any real aroma from the cascade dry hop may be diminished in this length of time. 3-5 day dry hop seems to be the golden timeframe. In the second beer everything 15 minutes and below are Cascade hops, including dry hops, so I'm not surprised that it's very similar to the first beer which is essentially the same.

I suspect if you start increasing your hopping in the last 15 minutes of your boils (and decreasing early-boil additions) you'll start to notice the differences you're looking for. More flavor and aroma, less straight up bitterness.
Click to expand...


The dry hop hasn't made it to 14 days. Just a number that I haven't changed. I threw the hops in the keg on Friday in a massive tea ball added gelatin and carbed. First day amazing aroma and favor. Just a bouquet in a keg. Second day it all dropped out.

I will look into moving everything but the galena to the end. I'm also not convinced that gelatin is helping me with flavor. Maybe with clarity, but in the end it's taste that matters right?
 
One thing I've experienced and researched is that any amount of oxidation will impact flavor and aroma of your IPA. No matter how careful your transfer is it will be exposed to oxygen. Any amount of oxygen post fermentation is bad. It may not be fully oxidized, but the smallest amount of oxygen can shorten the life of your IPA (or any beer). You might find it still drinkable, but its no longer fresh due to staling compounds present. This might also contribute to your perception that the beers taste the same; however, your ingredients are very similar as well. The best chance at preserving your flavor and aroma as it was intended is to utilize a closed transfer system. I will begin fermenting in kegs shortly and jump to a co2 purged keg to hopefully eliminate my cold side oxidation issues.
 
Redtab78 said:
maybe its just me here, but I have found that using crystal of the same lovibond in multiple recipes gives the same caramel type of flavor that dominates the malt flavor. I have about 4 recipes that all call for around 1# or crystal 20, all very different hop schedules, but if I brew them and have more than 1 on tap, I get the same kind of "same flavor" result ESPECIALLY if I am dry hopping with the same hops.



I mean think about it for just a second, most of your aroma comes from the dry hops, in your case your using cascade for both, so your getting the same aroma....usually what we smell is what we taste as well, so your getting the same there from the cascade......then add in the caramel flavors from the crystal (which are just about the same amount here), so your getting the caramel flavor profile in both.....and then you have about the same in bitterness (one being higher), but again, we can only taste so much bitterness.

You see these double IPA's like in Biermunchers "tits up" that is well over 100IBU, but we cant really taste that "extra" IBU's.



In all, while there are subtle differences in both of your recipies, they are (almost) the same, so naturally when side by side, they will be very similar.



You can always make one of those, then do something else, like a porter, or something different then an IPA, and then make your second recipe, and I bet you will taste a difference then, but it will be small differences.





OR, completely swap out the cascade from the dry hop in one of them, and you will get a different aroma/flavor. Try making one as you have it, and the second one with something like galaxy, or mosaic as the dry hop and VIOLA!! 2 different tasting beers.
Click to expand...


My biggest complaint is that I can't taste the cascade in either beer. They both are lacking that flavor.
 
oylerck said:
My biggest complaint is that I can't taste the cascade in either beer. They both are lacking that flavor.
Click to expand...

To be honest 2 oz of dry hop in an IPA isn't much to begin with. Try 1 oz per gallon next time.
 
You have a lot of advice in here going in all sorts of directions. I think #lstewart89 is pretty much spot on. Next time just do a bittering addition for about 30 IBU and then late additions (like 10 minutes or less, plus whirlpool) and you will get at the hop character. That bittering addition can be anything you like, I pick something high AA and cheap like CTZ or Warrior or a hop extract.

I tend to disagree with #oujens regarding oxidation as a likely culprit. With respect to oxidation I have followed the blogs and built and used a system for closed transfers. It is a PITA compared to just draining into kegs. No idea if the beer is improved I could not detect a difference when applied to previously brewed batches (sure taste memory is suspect, not doing a triangle test...). But my IPAs get kegged young, chilled immediately, force carbed and are consumed within 3-4 weeks even with a double batch. Is it possible that in week 3 or 4 a closed transfer might have preserved a bit of hop aroma? Sure it is. You know what I do if that happens? I put an ounce of hops in a stainless tea ball, open the keg and drop it in and purge the keg with the release valve a few times. Within 24 hours I have a super fresh tasting IPA with in your face hop aroma.

As for crystal malt being the enemy and making everything taste the same. A little crystal is nice in IPAs and other pale ales in my opinion. I use 7% C20 in my hop test ale recipe and it is just enough to add some interest to the beer but doesn't interfere with the hop flavor and aroma character. I am using the grain bill Russian River claims to use for the same purpose. I tried a couple different hop versions side by side at the brewery and was hooked on the recipe. Now it is first thing I brew every time I want to try a new hop.
 
eric19312 said:
You have a lot of advice in here going in all sorts of directions. I think #lstewart89 is pretty much spot on. Next time just do a bittering addition for about 30 IBU and then late additions (like 10 minutes or less, plus whirlpool) and you will get at the hop character. That bittering addition can be anything you like, I pick something high AA and cheap like CTZ or Warrior or a hop
Click to expand...


I did get a few options. Thanks for your advice. I will try the late additions advice.

I have been adding gelatin to the keg and throwing the tea ball in whole force carbing. My thought is all the just that dropped out is covering up the tea ball or prohibiting it from spreading love all over the beer. I'm thinking about just adding the gelatin in the fermenter now that I have a fermentation fridge or just nixing it all together. Kinda nice to be able to drink clear beer in a week though.

Next beer is a Belgian blond and then a wheat, so when I come back to an IPA I'll make adjustments.

Thanks again
 
"I threw the hops in the keg on Friday in a massive tea ball added gelatin and carbed."
Did you cold crash? Maybe the temperature and gelatine affected your dryhopping. Temperature does affect dryhopping and from what I have read, you dont dryhop and add fining at same time.
 
eric19312 said:
You have a lot of advice in here going in all sorts of directions. I think #lstewart89 is pretty much spot on. Next time just do a bittering addition for about 30 IBU and then late additions (like 10 minutes or less, plus whirlpool) and you will get at the hop character. That bittering addition can be anything you like, I pick something high AA and cheap like CTZ or Warrior or a hop extract.

I tend to disagree with #oujens regarding oxidation as a likely culprit. With respect to oxidation I have followed the blogs and built and used a system for closed transfers. It is a PITA compared to just draining into kegs. No idea if the beer is improved I could not detect a difference when applied to previously brewed batches (sure taste memory is suspect, not doing a triangle test...). But my IPAs get kegged young, chilled immediately, force carbed and are consumed within 3-4 weeks even with a double batch. Is it possible that in week 3 or 4 a closed transfer might have preserved a bit of hop aroma? Sure it is. You know what I do if that happens? I put an ounce of hops in a stainless tea ball, open the keg and drop it in and purge the keg with the release valve a few times. Within 24 hours I have a super fresh tasting IPA with in your face hop aroma.

As for crystal malt being the enemy and making everything taste the same. A little crystal is nice in IPAs and other pale ales in my opinion. I use 7% C20 in my hop test ale recipe and it is just enough to add some interest to the beer but doesn't interfere with the hop flavor and aroma character. I am using the grain bill Russian River claims to use for the same purpose. I tried a couple different hop versions side by side at the brewery and was hooked on the recipe. Now it is first thing I brew every time I want to try a new hop.
Click to expand...

True, but the OP made both batches with the very similar grain bills and both dryhopped with cascade....so naturally, they are gonna be similar
 
The answer to your question is a simple. You're using nearly the same ingredients in both, especially the malt bill. Vienna isn't that different than MO pale malt. Aside from that the difference is small.

If you really want to mix it up, try varying your specialty grain blend. Keep the total quantity modest. Try different color levels of crystal, even some darker ones, but back off the quantity. You could also try dark munich or even victory, etc. Second, don't use the same variety of hops in both. That will instantly tie the flavors together.
 
schematix said:
The answer to your question is a simple. You're using nearly the same ingredients in both, especially the malt bill. Vienna isn't that different than MO pale malt. Aside from that the difference is small.

If you really want to mix it up, try varying your specialty grain blend. Keep the total quantity modest. Try different color levels of crystal, even some darker ones, but back off the quantity. You could also try dark munich or even victory, etc. Second, don't use the same variety of hops in both. That will instantly tie the flavors together.
Click to expand...


I just don't understand why I can't taste anything but bitter and malt. That's it.
 
oylerck said:
I just don't understand why I can't taste anything but bitter and malt. That's it.
Click to expand...

This won't resolve your initial question, but it may make your batch more enjoyable: if I have a light/blond/pale/IP ale that is 'boring' I throw a few more ounces of some strong hops into the keg in mesh bags, with a glass/stainless weight, while it's on tap. For example, CTZ (dank) + Mosaic (interesting) + Citra (citrusy-fruity), etc. That can take a 'boring beer' flavor to 'interesting' in a few days.
 
Were you shooting for different outcomes?
As others have mentioned, I don't see a whole lot of practical differences between the two recipes that will show up in tasting.
If you want to find out the differences between two hops, consider recipients that isolate those hops versus complex blends where the differences are harder to find than the similarities... (i.e. A SMASH with the same grain bill but different hops at the same hop schedule will give you beers that showcase the hop differences). If you are trying to see the impact of different malts, isolate that instead, using centennial in both beers but making one with 80% 2-row and one with 80% golden promise or MO or whatever...

The differences in your two recipes are too subtle to overcome the large similarities. Also they seem to be a very west coast recipe with lots of bittering additions and less aroma/flavor... bitter is bitter, to me it is much harder to detect differences in bittering hops used... and an IPA with high bittering to me is harder to make different from another high bittering IPA with hops alone... I also don't prefer crystal in IPAs so two IPAs both with crystal would make it harder for me to distinguish...


Maybe what you could do as a test would be instead of trying to find the differences between the two, concentrate more on which one you prefer and try to articulate why. That may help your recipe building more than just making things different.
 
oylerck said:
I just don't understand why I can't taste anything but bitter and malt. That's it.
Click to expand...

What are you trying to make? Do you have a target in mind? A commercial examp,e that is along the lines of what you want to make?

Your recipes are essentially for a malty bitter IPA. If you are going for a New England IPA style that's floral, citrusy, tropical with an understated malt and pronounced hop aroma and flavor then nearly all of your hops would be flameout and dry hop,and there be no hop additions at 60,45,30 etc.

There are lots of IPA styles and sub styles possible, you sort of have to choose what you want to make and then build your recipe to get there... takes practice and experience...
 
oylerck said:
I have been adding gelatin to the keg and throwing the tea ball in whole force carbing. My thought is all the just that dropped out is covering up the tea ball or prohibiting it from spreading love all over the beer. I'm thinking about just adding the gelatin in the fermenter now that I have a fermentation fridge or just nixing it all together. Kinda nice to be able to drink clear beer in a week though.
Click to expand...

I do first dry hop addition(s) in primary. I don't like to cold crash primary due to concerns about sucking O2 back through the airlock. After dry hoping in primary transfer into keg, on CO2, into the fridge. Once it is cold ... say 24 hours ... I open the keg and fine with gelatin. Purge with CO2 when I close it. Next day I open it again and drop in final dry hop in a tea ball. Close and purge again.
 
eric19312 said:
I do first dry hop addition(s) in primary. I don't like to cold crash primary due to concerns about sucking O2 back through the airlock. After dry hoping in primary transfer into keg, on CO2, into the fridge. Once it is cold ... say 24 hours ... I open the keg and fine with gelatin. Purge with CO2 when I close it. Next day I open it again and drop in final dry hop in a tea ball. Close and purge again.
Click to expand...


I will try this. I hate to lose clarity, but I need the flavor to be there.


Edit: now that the keg poured the last pint, I taste the cascade! Thanks everyone
 
I dry hop for about 7 days...before i bottle. you finished your beer in 9 days :D why you didn't get cascade in first period. you were too fast in finishing it!

You can dry hop after most of the primary fermentation is done, about day 4 to 6. Take your gravity, dryhop, wait 7 more days, take hops out and take your gravity. If gravity the same, you keg, otherwise wait few more days and take your gravity....and keg.

You will not "smell" cascade in first few days if you cold crashing and dry hopping...with gelatin. Expert can correct me on this, but dry hopping needs a bit of time, more if beer is cold.
 
Edit: went to post on someone else's comment from a different thread and it brought me back here.... app is not perfect.
 

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