Two Day Brew Process?

[Duane]

Anyone see any problems with splitting up a brew day over two days IN THE WINTER?

My biggest brewing obstacle is finding a full 5 hours free in a single day to do a batch. How about splitting that down the middle and taking an overnight break AFTER sparging? Anyone see any trouble with that? The idea is I'd cover my wort with plastic wrap and a lid and let it sit in my near or below freezing garage over night. Then I'd finish up the next morning with the boil, chill, and pitch. I'd think contamination with unwanted organisms would be absolutely minimal from letting it set in those cold temps (and the bugs that do happen to make it in would be killed off in the boil the next day anyway). Right?

My next question... what if I did this in warmer temps? What kind of risk are we looking at? Do other people do this?

 

[broadbill]

Although your garage temps are near/below freezing, your hot wort won't cool down to those temps for many hours. I wouldn't be surprised if it was still a bit above ambient temp when you got back to it the next day. That is a long time for it to sit at temps that are optimal for bug growth (40-140F).

Yes, the bugs will be killed off by the boil the next day but they would have gone crazy souring the wort as it came down from Sparge/pre-boil temps.

Your only shot it to bring the wort to a boil before calling it a day in order to kill off the bugs, then close it up. But at that point you may as well finish the batch.

 

[NedStackey]

I guess you could do this since the boiling is going to kill anything harmful before you pitch the yeast. With warm weather I would assume it would be the same since again it's the boiling which is going to kill anything in there.

Personally I can't think of reason you couldn't do this, but I'm sure there's something I'm forgetting about.

 

[Doc_drive]

A lot of the people on my German forum are doing this...

They do the full brewday up until the end of the boil and then have it cool down over night and pitch the next day...

Sometimes they rack the wort again to remove the sediment that has formed from cooling over night...

Hope this helps!

 

[gregkeller]

Yeah, i'd worry about the lacto and other miscellaneous bugs that live on the grain husks not being killed by the 168 degree mash out temps, and then being in the "danger zone" of 140-40 degrees for a long time (i'd be surprised if 6-8 gallons of wort cools to <40 overnight). Boiling would kill any souring bugs, but the damage may be done. Maybe not enough to notice as a specifically "sour" tang, but something might taste off in the beer. Also some of the esters that lacto/brett/etc can throw off are very perceptible in really, really small quantities, so it might be noticeable. I wouldn't do it.

 

[Riot]

If you brought the wort even to 180 before you closed it and walked away it should be effectively pasteurised. Then you should be able to do your boil the following day without any souring occurring beforehand.

 

[gregkeller]

If you brought the wort even to 180 before you closed it and walked away it should be effectively pasteurised. Then you should be able to do your boil the following day without any souring occurring beforehand.

But bringing the mash to 180, what about extracting tannins from the husks? Now if you ran off into the kettle, brought it to 180 for a minute or two, slapped a lid on it then restarted the next day that probably would work.

 

[bu_gee]

The numbers I've always gone by for pasteurization are:

141F for 15 minutes
161F for 15 seconds
260F for 2 seconds

You should get that during mashing so that part would be cool. My worry would be contamination during sparging. You could always reheat to 141 for 15 min or 161 for 15 sec, but again, that starts looking a lot like "just finish it up."

As for the winter bit, I think if you contaminate, you contaminate and you never know what the end result is going to be even at lower temperatures. I'd say your best bet is to pasteurize and keep it sealed up.

 

[porterguy]

Look up "No-chill brewing" on this forum (also covered in last issue of BYO). It won't cut your time in half, but it does shave up to about an hour. Basically, you run your hot wort, right after flame-out, into a plastic container, close it up and let it cool down naturally overnight or whatever. You can even wait a couple days before adding your yeast.
Before anyone jumps in about infections and such, read up on it. It's been standard practice in Australia for years, especially in water shortage areas. I've done it for my last 15 batches, no infections. Great beer.

 

[masskrug]

I have. I will mash in before bed and then sparge in the morning, ultimately making for a 6-8 hour mash. I have had my mash temp drop down to 130' with no ill affect.

 

[Zepth]

To chime in with my experience in a similar matter, I'm a huge fan of the parti gyle brewing. Is it the increased overall efficiency? The ability to boil without another strike and mash? Who knows. Irrelevant here anyways.

The point I'm getting to is that I once brewed in the afternoon, and left my tun overnight in the rubbermaid cooler. The next morning (12 hours) after I began to sparge the grain for the second batch. Had no noticeable off flavours or souring (for the good or bad). That second brew day went exactly as expected without any difference in procedure.

I see no reason why the method proposed would fail. If reasonable to do so I'd personally try to get a quick pasteurization before leaving it sealed overnight.

 

[Braufessor]

If a 5 hour brew day is the problem, I guess I would put all my efforts into organization and set up one day, and brewing the next..... maybe even clean stuff up the next morning. If you have absolutely everything set up - grains ready, water treatment done, water in the pots, etc...... get the water heating immediately........ Depending on when you are doing this..... So, maybe the second you come home from work, you turn on the flame and then go change clothes etc. Or as soon as you wake up - then get your coffee and breakfast, etc. At any rate, if everything is set up, and all you have to do is turn on a flame, your brew day should only take about 2-3 hours. either let it sit to chill and then pitch, or hit it with a chiller and pitch. I can very easily brew a beer in 3+ hours if I am perfectly organized. You could even leave some cleaning for the next morning if you had to.

I would personally not leave the one 12 hour lag time, as the one time where your beer is vulnerable. The plastic wrap you are talking about is irrelevant...... the "bugs" that are going to infect your beer are already on your grain, and in your mash. Those are the bugs that will potentially cause you problems.

Divide your brew day up - sure. But why not divide it up so that the preparation and clean up are separate and the "brewing" is all at once?

 

[choirjon]

I have been doing a split brew day in just this fashion. I dough in, mash, mash out and sparge to my keggle. By this time my 8 pm start has turned into 10:30 pm. I put a lid on the wort and hit the sack until about 5am. Turn on the kettle and finish the batch and clean up by 9:30am. Been all grain brewing for 18 years, didn't notice any sour or off flavour. It makes it easier to fit in a brew with little kids in the house.



Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[ktblunden]

If a 5 hour brew day is the problem, I guess I would put all my efforts into organization and set up one day, and brewing the next

With two little kids this is what I do. I measure out all my ingredients, get my water measured and treated, and make sure all the equipment is ready to go the night before. Then the next morning all I have to do is fire up the burner and go. It cuts a big chunk of time out of brew day.

 

[RM-MN]

If you are having trouble with a 5 hour brew day, instead of splitting that 5 hours into two days and increasing the time required to 6 hours, why not change your process to get the brew day down to a more manageable time? I can do a 5 gallon batch and have it chilled and the yeast pitched in about 3 1/2 hours if I use a full hour mash and chill the pot in a tub of water. If I really want to speed it up I can have the wort in the fermenter in less than 2 1/2 hour by using BIAB, milling the grains fine so the mash doesn't need more than 20 minutes, and doing no chill so I dump the wort into the fermenter bucket and pitch the yeast when it is cool. With that method you'd be done and all cleaned up the same day except for the time to pitch the yeast.

 

[jfr1111]

With two little kids this is what I do. I measure out all my ingredients, get my water measured and treated, and make sure all the equipment is ready to go the night before. Then the next morning all I have to do is fire up the burner and go. It cuts a big chunk of time out of brew day.

I do this too. I'll measure all my water, my hops, mill my grain, clean and sanitize everything (with starsan, I can let it soak and just wet it back before using) the day before brewing. It's insane how much time I save on brewday doing this. The fact that my ground water is probably around 40F makes chilling a 15 minutes process though. I also do not drink beer until the end and I often do my laundry, cooking, vacuum, etc. when the mash is converting or when the wort is boiling. Yesterday, it took me 4 hours to brew 5 gallons of saison with a 90 minute mash and a 90 minute boil since everything was ready when I started.

 

[passedpawn]

Get up early and brew. Spreading it out over 2 days will make it seem like a bigger task instead of smaller.

Like others said, have everything measured and ready the night before, then get up early and get it done. If you can get up at 5am, you can be done and cleaned up before the family is moving. That's what I usually do (not today, big brew day still in progress).

 

[j1n]

With two little kids this is what I do. I measure out all my ingredients, get my water measured and treated, and make sure all the equipment is ready to go the night before. Then the next morning all I have to do is fire up the burner and go. It cuts a big chunk of time out of brew day.

Even i do this and i don't have any kids. I just like being efficient.




Also people talking about splitting the cleaning.... its prob not needed IMO. I get most of my cleaning done while i'm waiting for things to happen. I will clean the mash tun and other misc things as im waiting for the wort to boil or as its boiling. At the end of the brew the only things i need to clean are the kettle, IC and a funnel.

 

[cjgenever]

I'd do it more and more lately. Simply boil for fifteen min with cover to sanitize everything. Pull the cover off the next day and begin your boil. I haven't had any dms problems, then again I haven't done this with anything very pale. YMMV

 

[grathan]

You can get your brew day under 5 hours if you try. I am currently at 6 hours but I think 3 is doable.

 

[jfr1111]

You can get your brew day under 5 hours if you try. I am currently at 6 hours but I think 3 is doable.

With BIAB it's certainly doable if you have cold water to chill with and a good burner/eletric system to heat/boil the wort quickly.

 

[jfr1111]

Like others said, have everything measured and ready the night before, then get up early and get it done. If you can get up at 5am, you can be done and cleaned up before the family is moving. That's what I usually do (not today, big brew day still in progress).

There's a certain charm to getting up real early, brewing a strong cup of coffee and starting a brewday while everyone else is sleeping, plus, as you said, it's efficient. You still gotta have the time though.

 

[grathan]

With BIAB it's certainly doable if you have cold water to chill with and a good burner/eletric system to heat/boil the wort quickly.

Nice, I hadn't even considered biab. I was thinking no chill.

 

[jfr1111]

Nice, I hadn't even considered biab. I was thinking no chill.

I'm sure no chill can and does produce fine beer, but from a time perspective, on my system, it would just add time, not save it, because I can cool my wort very rapidly and I don't want to add steps on another day which can de done simultaneously on the first brew day (sanitizing, rehydrating dry yeast, taking reading, etc.). If you live somewhere where the ground water is lukewarm and it takes you an hour to two hours to chill down to pitch temps, no chill can probably save you a lot of time over the course of a year.

I do kind of a BIAB hybrid where I'll mash in a cooler using standard strike water to grain ratio and then I'll "sparge" by dunking the grain bag and stirring it for 10-15 minutes in my sparge water, ramping the temps up to mash out. I get usually 70-75% efficiency doing this technique.

 

[Ilan34]

I'm a fan of mash and sparge at night, heat up to about 190 while I'm cleaning, and then putting the kettle in the oven pre heated to 170 until morning. In the morning, it's sitting around 155 and I begin my boil from there. The night half takes about 2 hrs and 45 minutes, and the morning takes 3.5 hours - although I just bought a wort chiller, so I'm hoping to get that down to 3 hours.

I do BIAB, 2.5 gallon batches.

 

[jfr1111]

I'm a fan of mash and sparge at night, heat up to about 190 while I'm cleaning, and then putting the kettle in the oven pre heated to 170 until morning. In the morning, it's sitting around 155 and I begin my boil from there. The night half takes about 2 hrs and 45 minutes, and the morning takes 3.5 hours - although I just bought a wort chiller, so I'm hoping to get that down to 3 hours.

I do BIAB, 2.5 gallon batches.

A wort chiller and a gas burner or electric stick thingy (very scientific) are two of the best investments you can make if you want to have a shorter brewday. I too started off with the bare minimum and i think my first brewday lasted around 8 hours (I chilled the wort in the bathtub in my soot covered kettle). Then I decided my time was worth more than a bit of money and splurged on a turkey fryer and wort chiller. Bam ! Took it from 8 hours to about 4 and now I've streamlined my process where the only time "lost", meaning when I don't multitask, is when heating up the strike water.

If you stay on 2.5 gallons batches, you could easily go to three hours, which means double brew days baby.

 

[Zepth]

A wort chiller and a gas burner or electric stick thingy (very scientific) are two of the best investments you can make if you want to have a shorter brewday. I too started off with the bare minimum and i think my first brewday lasted around 8 hours (I chilled the wort in the bathtub in my soot covered kettle). Then I decided my time was worth more than a bit of money and splurged on a turkey fryer and wort chiller. Bam ! Took it from 8 hours to about 4 and now I've streamlined my process where the only time "lost", meaning when I don't multitask, is when heating up the strike water.

If you stay on 2.5 gallons batches, you could easily go to three hours, which means double brew days baby.

That is great news to hear. I have a pot, immersion element, and chiller all in the mail. Not too often I get good news, let alone first thing in the morning. Goodbye "radiant element" stovetop brewing!

As far as double brew days go, I usually brew 10-11 hours in a day. This includes a 6-8% 5 gallon batch, then a 3-5% 3-4 gallon parti-gyle depending on the day. Time to chill and pitch latter one is usually overnight because I'm ready to sit down and relax for a bit. To break it down would likely be around 6.5 hours for the first batch because it includes the strike and mash.

New equipment should knock about strike time to 11 minutes (assuming I use full volume) and boil time to 15. Could get that 15 down by doing a mashout, lowering the delta to boil - actually good tip! Do a mashout if you have limited heating capacity. Lowering the end mash to boil delta will take less time, and let you heat mashout water while conversion is occurring. Back on track. Saves 20 minutes for strike and about 45 on getting to a boil, there's an hour per batch. According to reviews the chiller can take 5 gallons down to 70f in 6.5-18 minutes depending on ground water and OG. Saves at least an hour and a half per batch.

Looks like my double brew day could be 5-6 hours

Sorry for the total hijack.

 

[Charles1968]

If you use the no-sparge technique and mash in full volume overnight, you can cut the brew day down to 2 hours. On previous evening, treat water and heat to strike temp; weigh out grain; dough in and go to bed.

Next morning, simply drain the tun, boil and chill. Should take about 2 hours. No water to heat for sparging. I get 70% efficiency doing full volume mash - similar to BIAB. If you do no-chill, your brew day should be about 90 minutes.

The mash tun will hold temp much better overnight with full volume of water, which will keep the wort pasteurized.

 

[jfr1111]

That is great news to hear. I have a pot, immersion element, and chiller all in the mail. Not too often I get good news, let alone first thing in the morning. Goodbye "radiant element" stovetop brewing!

As far as double brew days go, I usually brew 10-11 hours in a day. This includes a 6-8% 5 gallon batch, then a 3-5% 3-4 gallon parti-gyle depending on the day. Time to chill and pitch latter one is usually overnight because I'm ready to sit down and relax for a bit. To break it down would likely be around 6.5 hours for the first batch because it includes the strike and mash.

New equipment should knock about strike time to 11 minutes (assuming I use full volume) and boil time to 15. Could get that 15 down by doing a mashout, lowering the delta to boil - actually good tip! Do a mashout if you have limited heating capacity. Lowering the end mash to boil delta will take less time, and let you heat mashout water while conversion is occurring. Back on track. Saves 20 minutes for strike and about 45 on getting to a boil, there's an hour per batch. According to reviews the chiller can take 5 gallons down to 70f in 6.5-18 minutes depending on ground water and OG. Saves at least an hour and a half per batch.

Looks like my double brew day could be 5-6 hours

Sorry for the total hijack.

What capacity is your pot ? I see you are in Canada. Ontario beer kegs has a ridiculously low priced 15 gallons with thermo and ball valve. Ho, and it's stainless. It's huge though, but it enables full volume BIAB.

I have a friend who came over for the inaugural batch and he bought one on the off chance he starts to brew sometime next year.

PM to discuss further if you want.

 

[electrolight]

I have no problems with this and I'm in texas. I've done it more than once with nightime temps well into the upper 70s lower 80s. I just leave the lid on. Any bugs (bacterial (not real ones ( that's what the lid is for))) that squeezed through at night are killed by the boil the next morning. My only problem with this is I waste alot of propane/energy by bringing up the heavily cooled down fluid back up to temp in the morning.

For those of you that are doubters, leave a cup full of wort out next time and wait to see how long it takes to naturally innoculate. People are way to cautious pre boil. Relax, it's after the boil we should be worrying.

 

[grathan]

If your serious about brew times, 240v setup is a must have.

 

[bu_gee]

If your serious about brew times, 240v setup is a must have.

Electric is just not in the same ballpark as propane. A commonly available 185,000 BTU propane burner is the same as 240v at 225A.

The biggest single breaker in my house is 40A and my whole house has a 100A feed. Even with a 40A rig, you're still talking 5-6 times longer than with propane.

 

[grathan]

Have you tried it? You really can't compare straight BTUs because most of the propane heat goes up around the pot..

 

[bu_gee]

Have you tried it? You really can't compare straight BTUs because most of the propane heat goes up around the pot..

Yeah. I can bring over 5 gallons to a full boil from cold tap water in under 7 minutes on mine. I do have to admit that I pull mine back to about 75-80% throttle to reduce losses.

Even assuming only 5 gal and a full 7 mins. That's an effective transfer of about 55,000 BTU, or still about twice what a "perfect" electric system could do. This is including many of the same losses you'd have with electric.

What efficiency are you getting with electric?

 

[grathan]

Dunno, still wiring it up and I just got a new burner. Gonna end up using both 9000 watts and 210k. I think 7 minutes is pretty good though. I don't think my burner could do that on a keggle.

 

[bu_gee]

Dunno, still wiring it up and I just got a new burner. Gonna end up using both 9000 watts and 210k. I think 7 minutes is pretty good though. I don't think my burner could do that on a keggle.

I think we've gone quite a bit .

But since I'm curious at this point:

Is your keggle stainless steel? My vessel is aluminum, which makes a huge difference IMO. Stainless steel's heat transfer properties leave something to be desired for propane. It might be enough to make electric far more effective.

 

[grathan]

Yeah stainless, I'd bet it takes 5 minutes just to heat the huge skirt. Same thing with cooling, probably adds 10-15 minutes to the cooling process. Only plus would be that heat transfers steadily back into the mash when I use a keggle to mash in.

Curious, You have a thin bottom vessel? I wonder if %85 of 185k would add some burnt color to the wort.

 

[bu_gee]

Yeah stainless, I'd bet it takes 5 minutes just to heat the huge skirt. Same thing with cooling, probably adds 10-15 minutes to the cooling process. Only plus would be that heat transfers steadily back into the mash when I use a keggle to mash in.

Curious, You have a thin bottom vessel? I wonder if %85 of 185k would add some burnt color to the wort.

I do have a thin-bottomed vessel, which has caused me some trouble with some of the things I cooked in it in its previous life.

Up until this point I've only worked with extracts and some specialty grains so I haven't had to work with cold mash yet. That is the next step which I'm sure will create lots of fun with the thin-bottomed vessel.

 

[cjgenever]

Electric is just not in the same ballpark as propane. A commonly available 185,000 BTU propane burner is the same as 240v at 225A.

The biggest single breaker in my house is 40A and my whole house has a 100A feed. Even with a 40A rig, you're still talking 5-6 times longer than with propane.

I CALL BS! Your info is incorrect. most burners are 20-30% efficient according to John Blickman. Electric is close to 100%. My 5000w low density coil is equivalent to about a100,000 btu burner and WAY cheaper. I originally put two elements in my bk to speed up ramp times, but soon realized that one was plenty fast enough and removed the second.

Fwiw... Lp/lng could never keep up with my two element+ heat stick combo without excessive Melanoid production or even c caramelization , but who the hell needs to boil in five min? Both work well if the heat source is sized for the boil volume (and the operator understands how their system actually works).

Don't knock out till you try it, or at least understand the simple physics behind what you claim as truth.

 

[cjgenever]

I think we've gone quite a bit .

But since I'm curious at this point:

Is your keggle stainless steel? My vessel is aluminum, which makes a huge difference IMO. Stainless steel's heat transfer properties leave something to be desired for propane. It might be enough to make electric far more effective.

If I remember correctly, copper is 2x conductivity of aluminum, aluminum is 5x conductivity of ss. Could be the other way around,idk. Don't think it makes a big diff though. Even with electric you still need to heat the whole mass of the vessel. The ss conducts the heat fast enough for the skirt to leach energy from the system.