Two AG batches; same off flavor. HELP!

[noodledancer77]

I have brewed two extract batches, one batch of apfelwein, and three ag batches. The first all grain batch I brewed a robust porter with my cousin (a more experienced brewer) and it turned out very well. I have since brewed two ag batches on my own, and they both have the same off flavor. It is hard to diagnose without experienced homebrewers nearby (I'm in western KY). Everyone's palate is different, so describing the taste is hard. My first impression was a plastic taste like tupperware that lingered on the finish, but others have described it differently. It's not present in the smell, just the flavor. I will post my questions here first. Read below for details of the recipes and my equipment.

First of all, the flavor is not present in the post boil (cooled) wort, so I'm assuming this flavor is coming from fermentation, am I correct?

The differences in my setup between the porter and the other two batches include: different water filter, but same type, different cooler for mash tun, but same shape and size, had to repair IC using a small length of high temp hose and hose clamps (the copper split).

I am willing to send samples to people for help. I did bottle part of the amber ale, and will bottle the witbier in a week or so.

Both batches fermentation began within 24 hours.

My setup: My water comes from an outdoor spigot, thru a garden hose, an inline charcoal filter, and into my converted keg brewpot. Heated water goes into a food grade bottling bucket and into mash tun which is 48qt square cooler with copper manifold (as in "How to Brew" by Palmer). After vorloft, wort flows to brew pot, is boiled, cooled with IC, and transferred to glass primary via stainless fitting. oxygenation occurs via shaking. Fermentation takes place in swamp cooler if necessary. otherwise, ambient temps apply. Both batches that have off flavor have fermented between 64-72 degrees. I clean with PBW, sanitize with starsan.

First batch that had off flavor was Caramel Amber Ale https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f66/caramel-amber-ale-167880/

I hit the numbers (mashed at 150) and fermentation seemed "normal". Off flavor was noticeable when primary fermentation ended after about 10 days. The flavor was present in each of two fermenters that I used (I had extra wort, so also used a 1 gallon fermenter). I used safale -05, rehydrated, no starter.

The second batch was a witbier.

Type: All Grain
Date: 5/11/2011
Batch Size: 7.00 gal
Brewer: Neal Jackson
Boil Size: 9.34 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 75 min Equipment: Brew Pot (15 Gal) and Igloo/Gott Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 35.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.62 lb Pilsner (2 Row) Bel (2.0 SRM) Grain 52.43 %
4.55 lb White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 42.44 %
0.55 lb Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 5.13 %
1.00 oz Saaz [3.50 %] (75 min) Hops 10.3 IBU
0.40 oz Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1.00 oz Orange Peel, Bitter (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Belgian Wit Ale (White Labs #WLP400) no starter
8 oz Rice Hulls



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.040 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.010 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.009 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.005 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 4.04 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 0.65 %
Bitterness: 10.3 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 3.3 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Double Infusion, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 10.72 lb
Sparge Water: 6.87 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Double Infusion, Medium Body Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Protein Rest Add 9.65 qt of water at 134.8 F 122.0 F
30 min Saccrification Add 8.58 qt of water at 190.7 F 150.0 F


Brew day was good. I did not hit temp on 150 degree rest, so added more water to reach 150. As a result, i had more water than planned in boil, and ended up with more wort than expected in end. Yesterday was day 11 of ferment and I was at 1.018 and flavor was present.

Sorry for the long email. I figured details will help. Thanks for your help! I need to sort this out before I move forward. Have ingredients in the freezer for another batch of caramel amber ale, but dont' want to brew til I know what's going on.

 

[BigB]

My first thought is the garden hose. Even though you have a charcoal filter, if you have the water flowing too fast, the filter won't do its job properly. Try using a different water source next time. As far as not tasting it post boil.... there is so much sugar there, that it could mask flavors.

 

[noodledancer77]

Did not mention that one of the hoses used on the second two batches was a new garden hose. I use two hoses to reach garage, the first of which was used in all three AG batches. I need a water source in the garage while brewing. Any ideas for getting my hose ready to use. I can't imagine carrying 10-20 gallons of water from the house to the garage, however, it is possible. Slowing water going thru filter also a great idea. I know this, just don't do it. Patience!

Thanks.

 

[bobbytuck]

You'll also want to make sure the hose is an RV hose (usually white) and not the green garden hose.

Most hardware stores carry the white RV hoses. They're 10/25/50 feet or so.

 

[humblesea]

I've used a garden hose for years and have produced some amazing beers, and some terrible ones. My guess is it's some sort of contamination

 

[hibbleton]

I think you may be describing a problem I had for many batches. I've narrowed it down to fermentation temperature and water. I've been setting my temperature controller at 57 for most beers and haven't had the issue since. I also thought there may be chloramine in my water so I used half a campden tablet per batch. My money's on the temperature but campden tablets are cheap.

 

[janivar123]

When filling from a garden hose you should let it run a bit first to avoid any water that has been in it for any amount of time
Is any of your beer finished yet?
I see you say it has off flavors out of the fermentor, how about a conditioned bottle?

 

[noodledancer77]

Yes, caramel amber ale has been bottled for some time. wit is still fermenting.

 

[Yooper]

I would think it's chlorophenols. Either chlorine or chloramines in the brewing water, or from the hose.

I'd drink bottled water once, to see if that fixes it. If it doesn't, we know it's something else. If it does- it's the water!

 

[noodledancer77]

I sort of did an experiment last night with my water setup. I filled a glass of water from the hose in question after it had run thru my charcoal filter. it does indeed have a noticeable plastic flavor, much like I remembered my beer tasting.

i cracked a tainted caramel amber ale and drank them side by side and the flavor is similar. it's sort of hard to tell when you add some hop and malt character, but i believe we are onto something here.

Thanks for the advice. I'll try one batch with store bought water to see how it works out. After that i will likely either get a potable water hose, or skip the hose all together and just use my filter connected directly to the spigot.

Thank you!

 

[noodledancer77]

One more quick question to those of you still following. I was intending to save and wash this yeast from this batch since I'll make another witbier soon. Anybody think this is a bad idea given the off flavor? I figure since/if the off flavor came from the water, the yeast should not be related. Ideas?

 

[beerkrump]

I would think it's chlorophenols. Either chlorine or chloramines in the brewing water, or from the hose.

I'd drink bottled water once, to see if that fixes it. If it doesn't, we know it's something else. If it does- it's the water!

+1

These take a little time to form.

+1 on trying bottled water.

Try to replicate one of your "bad" recipes with using bottled water as the only change. Good old scientific method is the best way to identify the culprit.

 

[BigB]

One more quick question to those of you still following. I was intending to save and wash this yeast from this batch since I'll make another witbier soon. Anybody think this is a bad idea given the off flavor? I figure since/if the off flavor came from the water, the yeast should not be related. Ideas?

Like the other poster said, try to just change the water. Reusing the same yeast would be an excellent way to reduce the variables.

 

[JuanMoore]

I sort of did an experiment last night with my water setup. I filled a glass of water from the hose in question after it had run thru my charcoal filter. it does indeed have a noticeable plastic flavor, much like I remembered my beer tasting.

i cracked a tainted caramel amber ale and drank them side by side and the flavor is similar. it's sort of hard to tell when you add some hop and malt character, but i believe we are onto something here.

The flavors may not be identical because you are probably tasting different compounds. Even if you filter the water so that the hose taste is barely noticeable, there may still be enough chlorine compounds present to react with the yeast to create chlorophenols and result in a very strong off flavor. Chlorophenols have a very low taste threshold and can have a similar taste to the hose water, but often more of a spicy or burnt plastic taste.

 

[CidahMastah]

Just my .02 - why not just use 5 gallon homer buckets from your kitchen sink and be done with it (or do you have softened water)? It isn't that hard to carry them. Any reason why you have a filter hooked up at all? I would suspect something could be screwy with your filter.

I run my stuff out of a well and my water is hard (25 grains) with lots of calcium. It makes phenomol beer though, untreated and filled with minerals.

 

[noodledancer77]

I agree, the filter is precautionary and probably not necessary. I will probably carry water to the garage, but also may use campden tabs as well. Thanks.

 

[mgortel]

What was your fermentation temps on the (2) batched of all grain?

 

[ETCS]

I have two 5 gallon water containers, that before every brew day I take to the local Wally world, and fill them up at the culigan machine for 37 cents a gallon and haven't had a problem. I used tap water once with no filter and had some problems. Since then, no worries.

 

[noodledancer77]

Ferm temps were between 65-72 on both batches, with majority of time around 68 degrees.

 

[noodledancer77]

Update:

My witbier that I brewed on 5/11 that had an off taste when i sampled it on 5/23 has improved. I took another sample (still in primary) on 6/12 and the off flavor was present in very low amounts. I bottled it last night and I think it will be very drinkable. The first batch that had the off flavor (caramel amber ale) has a very strong off flavor even now. I'm excited that the witbier, although not perfect, will be enjoyable.

Incedentally, I brewed another batch of caramel amber ale last week. I sampled the beer from the primary on day 7 of fermentation and noticed a slight off flavor. The water for this batch came straight from the spigot. My wife thinks the flavor is in my head. Might be. needless to say, this batch is a drastic improvement.

thanks for everyone's help. I've purchased a cheap fridge and will soon install a temp control. i think that will improve things. FYI, ferm temps for my recent batches were around 68 degrees.