Trying to understand all grain batch sparging

[pudland]

Denny said he no longer advocates it.....

I saw that.

I think it should be mandatory that everyone brews a couple batches before they are allowed to look at Beersmith.

I lost count of the kits I've brewed. I've lost count of the extract recipes I've created. This is my first PM.
It's a tool, I'm using it, and still learning how to use it. If it needs tweaking, I'll tweak it. If it needs changes, I'll recommend them. While using BS2 and consulting forums like this, I learn how to adjust my process.

Start simple, then build...

I did, now I'm building and want to get the most out of BS2.

and in Denny's case lower efficiency.

It's great that Denny was able to find that out and share it with the community! I'm also not totally ignoring it..

 

[pudland]

edit to say:
The repeated iodine tests and gravity checks that you planned are not necessary.

Yeah, I pretty much picked up on that from previous posts. I guess I was doing it so I could see for myself how the conversion was going. Basically for my information.

Only check for remaining sugars before the first lauter (and before topping off the mash), if you're not satisfied you should mash longer.

I definitely understand what your saying, makes sense.
After 60 min, pour a small amount into a small dish, add a drop of iodine...
No change means little to no starches.
Change in color, mash longer.

I think I'll use your suggestion above.

You can do a pre-boil gravity check after everything is in your kettle.

Yup, got that listed in my brew day steps already! I have some DME for a just in case addition to bump up numbers.

 

[Denny]

Hey Denny, I'm all ears when you have something to say. I know you and I have discussed this point a bit in the past already, but I still have to respectfully disagree. I'm not in the habit of performing very scientific experiments or recording data of any kind. I generally take a more artistic approach, but I have been mashing for 15-25 mins rather than my typical 60 mins for the last 50 or so batches with almost zero discernable difference in the finished beer (single infusion / batch sparge). Perhaps I'll start logging my numbers to publish something at some point, but I would recommend everyone at least try it once and see if they think the extra point or two is worth another 30-45 mins of waiting around. It's certainly not worth it to me.

If it works for you, it works for you. I didn't care for the beers I made with short mashes.

 

[Denny]

IMO, the iodine test is worthless. It can easily give you a false reading and it really doesn't tell you about the state of your conversion.

 

[Denny]

So I thought I misread, but I went back and looked again, and he really doesn't specify fly or batch sparge:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17.html


Later on he is more explicit and recommends 1qt per minute in the lautering section (http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter17-2.html) but there's no indication that this section is specifically for a fly sparge process.

Anyway I'm pretty psyched to hear that sparging quickly is the way to go, as it will remove at least 20 minutes from my brew day

I know John well. I assure you he was talking fly sparging since he doesn't batch sparge.

 

[Denny]

Yea....that was written in the Stone Age before Denny invented batch sparging

I popularized it, not invented it, long before that book was written.

 

[Denny]

Serious question. So you and Denny are saying that mash thickness doesn't effect pH or that we shouldn't be conserned with that. What I've read is that over about 2 qts/lb you have the potential to be out of the safe pH range, but that could very well be part of the outdated information also.

Of course mash thickness has an effect on pH. Not a huge one, but it does matter. But most of us need to adjust pH no matter what ration we use.

OK, here's the takeaway...what I've learned from batch sparging 485 batches....

1. Mash with whatever ratio you like. These days I prefer around 1.65-1.75 qt./lb. for 2 reasons...it increases my efficiency and it gets me damn near half my total boil volume without screwing around with extra additions.

2. After mash vorlauf and runoff, measure how much wort you have. Subtract that from your boil volume. The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.

3. Heat that amount of water to 185-190F. Add your mineral/acid additions. stir that water thoroughly into your grain. Don't bother waiting 10 min. Just vorlauf and runoff

4. For either runoff, start slowly to set the grain bed. After a few seconds to a minute, you can go as fast as your system will allow.

 

[AnOldUR]

OK, here's the takeaway...what I've learned from batch sparging 485 batches....

That's fine for a certain gravity range of beers, but for a low gravity beer like the one pudland asked about it doesn't work. If he mashed in at 1.75 qts/lb and ran that off, the second runnings would exceed the capacity of he MLT. Topping off the mash as I described above is his easiest way to make it work with his equipment.

You're correct in saying that most of us need to adjust pH, but I'd bet that most brewers have not reached a level where water chemistry is something they want to think about. Not mashing over 2 qts/lb is a easy way to better their chances of making good beer. Topping off their mash to get two equal runnings is an easy way to stay within that limit and it's really simple math that anyone can understand.


Add:
Not wanting to argue. A lot of my brewing practices came from the simple, straight forward approach to brewing that I learned from you.

 

[doug293cz]

Serious question. So you and Denny are saying that mash thickness doesn't effect pH or that we shouldn't be conserned with that. What I've read is that over about 2 qts/lb you have the potential to be out of the safe pH range, but that could very well be part of the outdated information also.

Yes, the extra water can affect the mash pH, but then using a thick mash never guaranteed that pH would be ok. You can be out of pH range with 1.25 qts/lb if you have high alkalinity water. Everything depends on your water's alkalinity and the grain bill. To insure that you have proper pH, you should use a water calculator (I use Bru'n Water) to estimate pH and required/desirable water additions. Then check the mash with a good pH meter to be sure (although lots of brewers get away without actually measuring pH.)

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

So... what you're saying is in my recipe in the above post I just made, that I should add my 1.92 gallon on top of my initial 2.6 gallon of mash water. So for my mash I should be at 4.5 gallon, let it sit 60 mins. And sparge once with my 3.5 gallon of water?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. You will need to adjust your strike temperature (should be lower) for the additional water.

I planned on just measuring whatever I get out of the mash tun for my first running, then adding whatever I actually need to achieve my pre boil volume in beer smith which is 6.73 gallons.

Is this about right?

If you haven't got your equipment and process dialed in, then that is just how you should do it. Measurements always trump predictions (assuming the measurements are made correctly.)

Wow, this all grain thing can get pretty confusing!

Yes, it's confusing when you get started. It will get better as you get more experience, and after a few batches it should even make sense. Take good notes and compare what you actually got vs. predictions, and use that information to adjust the predictions (by adjusting equipment profiles or whatever.)

Brew on

 

[pudland]

Of course ash thickness has an effect on pH. Not a huge one, but it does matter. But most of us need to adjust pH no matter what ration we use.

OK, here's the takeaway...what I've learned from batch sparging 485 batches....

1. Mash with whatever ratio you like. These days I prefer around 1.65-1.75 qt./lb. for 2 reasons...it increases my efficiency and it gets me damn near half my total boil volume without screwing around with extra additions.

2. After mash vorlauf and runoff, measure how much wort you have. Subtract that from your boil volume. The answer you get is how much sparge water to use.

3. Heat that amount of water to 185-190F. Add your mineral/acid additions. stir that water thoroughly into your grain. Don't bother waiting 10 min. Just vorlauf and runoff

4. For either runoff, start slowly to set the grain bed. After a few seconds to a minute, you can go as fast as your system will allow.

So I must apologize to everyone, sincerely.
It seems I may been a large reason for this thread to stretch on so long.

After reading your step #1 & #2, crunching the numbers for my recipe and not coming up with "damn near close" to half my boil volume(7 gal) using that ratio range...5.25*1.75 = 2 1/3 gal

I had the sudden heart sinking realization that the recipe I was playing with, as I stated myself earlier in some posts, is a partial mash using 5.25 ttl lbs of grain and 3.15 lbs of LME.


BS2(yes, yes, Batch Sparge calcs are not well liked) was having me sparge 8.25 gal, because of equipment losses i entered etc..., to reach my boil volume. My 5 gal cooler, with deadspace, absorbtion and grain volume figured in, can't handle it in 1 sparge.

Especially, and here's the kicker, with the "Top Off Water for Boiler Kettle" at ZERO....

Tweaking my equipment profile, BS2 now tells me this:
Mash Volume = 2.80 gal
Drain(vorlauf is a gimme)
Sparge = 3.38 gal
Drain(vorlauf is a gimme)
TTL = 6.18 gal
PLUS
2 gal BOILER top off
EQUALS = 8.18 gal

In the end, I got the 1 sparge. I'm ok with adding top off water to the kettle. Its quicker than more sparging.

Again, sorry for my idiocy mucking up the thread.

I'll continue to read but I think I'm done putting in my half-a-penny of thinking.

 

[judsonp]

I thought i read in here that after anything after the first drain may be unnecessary(if you can mash in up to 1/2 your boil vol, counting in absorbtion). So you could measure first runnings and add sparge vol to make up the difference... or did I misread?

I don't think you're misreading, and I think you understand. (What you've said is true. It's sufficient to measure the first runnings, add the difference in sparge water, and drain.)

I was just saying that in the BeerSmith software, if your mash profile says to make the first and second runnings equal, but the first runnings work out to be more than half the preboil volume, it will still make the second runnings equal to the first. If you follow its volumes, then, you'll end up with too much wort preboil. As a brewer, you shouldn't actually do that. It makes no sense.

 

[judsonp]

I had the sudden heart sinking realization that the recipe I was playing with, as I stated myself earlier in some posts, is a partial mash using 5.25 ttl lbs of grain and 3.15 lbs of LME.

For a partial mash that's using that kind of mix of grain and extract, I think what you describe is totally reasonable. Do a mash with a reasonable water-to-grain ratio, do a single sparge that's a roughly similar volume and within your equipment's capabilities, and then just add top-up water to get the rest of the volume.

 

[Denny]

That's fine for a certain gravity range of beers, but for a low gravity beer like the one pudland asked about it doesn't work. If he mashed in at 1.75 qts/lb and ran that off, the second runnings would exceed the capacity of he MLT. Topping off the mash as I described above is his easiest way to make it work with his equipment.

You're correct in saying that most of us need to adjust pH, but I'd bet that most brewers have not reached a level where water chemistry is something they want to think about. Not mashing over 2 qts/lb is a easy way to better their chances of making good beer. Topping off their mash to get two equal runnings is an easy way to stay within that limit and it's really simple math that anyone can understand.


Add:
Not wanting to argue. A lot of my brewing practices came from the simple, straight forward approach to brewing that I learned from you.

didn't realize we were discussing a very low gravity beer. I was speaking in more general terms. For something like that, I usually do a no sparge doing pretty much what you describe.

 

[pudland]

For a partial mash that's using that kind of mix of grain and extract, I think what you describe is totally reasonable. Do a mash with a reasonable water-to-grain ratio, do a single sparge that's a roughly similar volume and within your equipment's capabilities, and then just add top-up water to get the rest of the volume.

I know, thats why I feel like a dope...

It is, step wise, like when I steep the specialty grain in my extract brews.
Steep them in a certain volume, add make up water in the boil kettle to reach boil volume.

I just couldn't replace the "steep" steps with the "mash" steps in my head.

I am now in a better state and know how to manipulate the BS2 settings per recipe. I just need to do a bunch of PM and AG brews, take good notes and compare real life to Beersmith to better dial it in for my process.

Ugh, I'm still kind of mad at myself.

I need a beer.....

 

[pudland]

didn't realize we were discussing a very low gravity beer.

Sorry but..

By "low gravity" do you mean wort gravity from the mash? I'm estimating pre boil at 1.037.
or
gravity with the LME added in the boil kettle? Post boil at 1.046.

 

[Denny]

Sorry but..

By "low gravity" do you mean wort gravity from the mash? I'm estimating pre boil at 1.037.
or
gravity with the LME added in the boil kettle? Post boil at 1.046.

I meant the gravity of the beer you're getting from the mash. But your post boil is still pretty low gravity.

 

[pudland]

I meant the gravity of the beer you're getting from the mash. But your post boil is still pretty low gravity.

Everything I've made with Beersmith has come out 1 to 1 1/2% measured abv higher, so i planned this one lower to adjust. Now I know why. I'm currently tinkering with the recipe to put the abv mid-range for the style now that I'm dialing in the BS2 profiles etc....

There is definitely a learning curve, for me anyway.

Thank You All for the input... I didn't mean to hijack the thread from the OP...

 

[stevehaun]

So 7 or 8 pages of pontification and you get back to my post.
That said, I learned to batch sparge from Denny Conn back on the Brews & Views Bulletin Board circa 2000 or there abouts.
Denny is still a brewing god to me - thanks for all you have done to help me and many others!

It is really quite simple.
1. Mash for 60 min with desired water to grain ratio - usually somewhere between 1 and 2 quarts per pound of grain
2. Vorlauf until clear
3. Drain mash tun completely.
4. Measure volume of first runnings
5. Sparge volume = Desired preboil volume - volume of first runnings
6. Add sparge water and stir
7. Vorlauf until clear
8. Drain mash tun completely
9. Boil

Have fun!

 

[pudland]

So 7 or 8 pages of pontification and you get back to my post.
That said, I learned to batch sparge from Denny Conn back on the Brews & Views Bulletin Board circa 2000 or there abouts.
Denny is still a brewing god to me - thanks for all you have done to help me and many others!

yup, except for me there had to be a boiler top off amount for the BS2 software to do what you, Denny and many others recommended.

So between your steps 8 and 9, I had to add "top off to desired boil vol".

It'll be a good note for others who are having the same "multiple sparge" issues with Beersmith. Maybe even for the OP...

 

[joshesmusica]

So 7 or 8 pages of pontification and you get back to my post.
That said, I learned to batch sparge from Denny Conn back on the Brews & Views Bulletin Board circa 2000 or there abouts.
Denny is still a brewing god to me - thanks for all you have done to help me and many others!

what exactly does vorlauf until clear mean? just clear of grains? so if i'm using a bag, is this step really that necessary?

 

[pudland]

Throw back friday...? I seem to stop and read everything when I see the name" Denny" now.

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Offline denny
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Re: Mashing Ratios
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2011, 08:56:29 AM »
You can definitely increase your efficiency by sparging more, but it can come at the expense of beer quality. Remember, you have to thin in terms of both conversion efficiency and lauter efficiency. You can have poor conversion efficiency but sparge more or great conversion effieincy and sparge less and still end up whit the same overall efficient. But the wort that's produced via a higgher conversion effieincy will be of a better quality. For more info, see...

http://braukaiser.com/download/Troester_NHC_2010_Efficiency.pdf
Logged
Life begins at 60.....1.060, that is!

www.dennybrew.com


___________________________________________________

It's like I'm being pulled by gravity or something...

 

[doug293cz]

Just a reminder, as many have stated earlier, BS2 equipment profiles should be set up to match your equipment as close as possible.

Seriously check out this link. It doesn't take long to read and follow the instructions for getting your equipment profile closer to your set up.

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index...c,5140.45.html

Your link appears to be borked. Might be a problem with the way you cut 'n pasted it.

Brew on

 

[pudland]

Your link appears to be borked. Might be a problem with the way you cut 'n pasted it.

Brew on

Does this one work?

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=5140.0


It works for me on my smartphone...

Maybe it's because I'm a member?

 

[doug293cz]

Does this one work?

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=5140.0


It works for me on my smartphone...

Maybe it's because I'm a member?

Much better.

Brew on

 

[jtratcliff]

IMO, the iodine test is worthless. It can easily give you a false reading and it really doesn't tell you about the state of your conversion.

I haven't seen this critique of the iodine test before... Have you written on it elsewhere or have other recommended reading? If not, at the risk of being declared off-topic , care to elucidate here?

 

[jtratcliff]

what exactly does vorlauf until clear mean? just clear of grains?

Yes...

if i'm using a bag, is this step really that necessary?

No...

 

[masonsjax]

Iodine will tell you if starch is present, but starch conversion to sugar is only part of what we're trying to accomplish. As alpha amylase converts starch to sugar, beta begins breaking the more complex carbohydrates into short chain sugars that are more fermentable. Since these two primary enzymes are most active at different temperatures, we can somewhat control the fermentability of our wort with temp and time. If we only used iodine to tell us the mash is done, we may have a wort that will barely ferment leaving a cloying sweet beer.

 

[Denny]

what exactly does vorlauf until clear mean? just clear of grains? so if i'm using a bag, is this step really that necessary?

Clear of chunks of grain, not clear so you can read a newspaper through it.

 

[Denny]

I haven't seen this critique of the iodine test before... Have you written on it elsewhere or have other recommended reading? If not, at the risk of being declared off-topic , care to elucidate here?

Haven't written about it other than discussing it in several forums. For pone thing, if you get the slightest amount of grain in your sample, you'll think you haven't converted. For another, it doesn't tell you anything about the stae of your conversion...you might still have long chain dextrins that you want to break down further while it's telling you conversion is done. I can't tell you how many times I've heard of people mashing for 3, 4, 5 hours becasue the iodine test tells them they don't have conversion. It's worthless and misleading...just skip it. If you mash for 60 min, at temps between 125-160F, you WILL have conversion unless you totally screw something up.