Trying to understand all grain batch sparging

[Yooper]

Right, that's why I have checked (for example)
BATCH SPARGE: Yes
USE EQUAL BATCHES: Yes
FILL MASH TUN: 90%
DRAIN TUN BEFORE SPARGE: No

Then the timer tells me:
Mash with 11lb-.6 oz in 13.8 qrts water for my set ratio of 1.25 qrts./lb.
Then the sparge additions are (remember the "drain tun before sparge" is set to no) 7.5 qrts, and 16 qrts.

Beersmith doesn't actually say, but if you mash at the volumes they give, it goes like this:
mash is complete, then add the 7.5 qrts before first running, and stir.
Drain completely and you gather about 16 qrts.
Add the last addition, stir and drain and you with gather (ta da)... 16 qrts.
BTW, this is exactly how Denny describes it in Dennybrew.

Yes, that's how he writes it up. But most people drain the MLT before adding the sparge water. See above where I bolded? Normally, you drain the MLT and then add the sparge water when you batch sparge. That is actually a mash out there, if you don't drain the MLT before adding the sparge water. You can do that, of course, but it isn't doing two rounds of batch sparging like we are discussing. I haven't discussed this with @Denny so maybe he really prefers a mash out, but it sounds like it's talking about trying to get equal runnings and not so much worrying about making two additions of sparge water. If your mash runnings are roughly equal (or close), then this step is not done.

One thing not yet discussed here is the rate at which you should drain your mashtun. John Palmer's online edition of How To Brew says you should shoot for a flow rate of 1qt per minute. If you're putting 7 gallons in the pot, that means nearly 30 minutes of your brew day is spent just draining the mashtun. I've been wondering, do people really adhere to this rate in practice?

If you are batch sparging, the advantage is draining as fast as possible. For continuous (fly sparging), a slow sparge is crucial.

 

[doug293cz]

One thing not yet discussed here is the rate at which you should drain your mashtun. John Palmer's online edition of How To Brew says you should shoot for a flow rate of 1qt per minute. If you're putting 7 gallons in the pot, that means nearly 30 minutes of your brew day is spent just draining the mashtun. I've been wondering, do people really adhere to this rate in practice?

Slow draining is only a benefit for fly (continuous sparging), where it is very important to lauter efficiency. This is a thread about batch sparging, and drain rate has no effect on lauter efficiency when batch sparging. When batch sparging you want to drain as fast as you can without causing a stuck mash.

Brew on

 

[mcfire12]

Well i'm even more confused now. So in the dennybrew, he is adding the first sparge water before even draining the mash tun? So he only adds water to an empty tun one time, stirs, vorlauf, then empty and that's it? I'm really interested in batch sparge to save time on brew day, so maybe this is the way to go?

 

[pudland]

I'll be doing my first PM and Batch Sparge this weekend, so I'm following this thread.....

I've seen a few who use Beersmith have wonky volumes- like sparge with .6 gallons in one round and then 3.2 gallons in the next.

I saw that also. I'm using the SI, LB, BS Profile, I edited the profile and checked the "Drain mash tun before sparging" and all the sparges were now equal.

Put bluntly, get your head out of Beersmith and over the kettle measuring actual volumes, rather than blindly relying on the software forecast.

That's why it's so important to remember that WE tell Beersmith what to do, not the other way around.

I'll be combining these 2 statements...


I've seen the words "use common sense" thrown out there... seems ambiguous as people have different equipment set-ups and different levels of brewing knowledge.
Common sense to me means that if BS2 tells me to add .8 gal for the first sparge of 3 to my 7 lbs of grain, that barely fills the dead space, so just add that to the mash in volume.


My example:
5 1/4 lb of grain
5 gal MT pre heated
1/4 gal of dead space

SI,LB,BS profile, Drain Mash Tun before sparge = NO
Mash In 7.56 qt
Sparge 2.09 gal
sparge 3.36 gal

SI,LB,BS profile, Drain Mash Tun before sparge = YES
Mash In 7.56 qt
Sparge 2.72 gal
sparge 2.72 gal

I cant fit ALL the sparge water in my mash tun so I will do multiple sparges.

As for "To drain or not to drain" between sparges.....
Wouldn't the additional sparge water, without draining, "thin the liquor" allowing for a decent wash on first drain?
Couldn't additional sparges to meet boil volume be a "why not, might as well run it through the grain to get what I can instead of just topping off the boil pot..." ? Especially for someone who doesn't mind the additional OG points?

When mash time is done I may just fill the mash tun with sparge water, vorlauf, then drain, measure volume, add enough to top off the boil pot, vorlauf then drain.
That being said, I am going to take a gravity reading AND do an IODINE test and record the results.





"I'm not a professional, please be gentle..."

 

[pudland]

Well i'm even more confused now. So in the dennybrew, he is adding the first sparge water before even draining the mash tun? So he only adds water to an empty tun one time, stirs, vorlauf, then empty and that's it? I'm really interested in batch sparge to save time on brew day, so maybe this is the way to go?

You could do the dennybrew method this recipe, take gravity reading and do an iodine test on each drain and record the results.

Next brew use another batch sparge method mentioned in this thread, take gravity reading and do an iodine test, record the results.

YOU, decide which method works for YOUR equipment and YOUR time schedule and recipe.

All kinds of great info in this forum and thread, mix and match etc to suit your brewing process.

 

[pudland]

Yes, that's how he writes it up. But most people drain the MLT before adding the sparge water. See above where I bolded? Normally, you drain the MLT and then add the sparge water when you batch sparge. That is actually a mash out there, if you don't drain the MLT before adding the sparge water. You can do that, of course, but it isn't doing two rounds of batch sparging like we are discussing. I haven't discussed this with @Denny so maybe he really prefers a mash out, but it sounds like it's talking about trying to get equal runnings and not so much worrying about making two additions of sparge water. If your mash runnings are roughly equal (or close), then this step is not done.



If you are batch sparging, the advantage is draining as fast as possible. For continuous (fly sparging), a slow sparge is crucial.

I thought mash out was at 170*F to stop the enzymes? Is it a mash out when adding water at 148-156*F?

 

[Yooper]

I've seen the words "use common sense" thrown out there... seems ambiguous as people have different equipment set-ups and different levels of brewing knowledge.

Yes, I suppose you're right! But what I meant is that if you have brewed with a certain pot before, even with extract brewing, and Beersmith tells you to add 5 gallons of liquid to it when it already has 3 gallons in it- you know that your pot will overflow if it has 8 gallons. That's what I meant by common sense- not to necessarily not use .6 gallons or whatever, but to think about it while you're doing something. We are so used to our directions from work and things coming from a computer, and that's a great thing for us, but the directions from the computer are only as good as the data put into it- and that might take a few batches before the data we enter is perfect.

I've had Beersmith for about 9 years. My volumes are spot on- but when I get my new system it still took a few batches to be perfect.

What is nice about batch sparging, besides saving time, is that you can check your volumes easily. After you run off the first runnings to the boil kettle, actually measure them. I have a long spoon with the gallon markings on it. So I stick the spoon in there, and can tell I have 2.75 gallons (or whatever it is). I know I need 6.5 gallons of wort for my boil volume, so I know that I will need 3.75 gallons of sparge water. (The grain won't absorb liquid this time, like when you mash in).

It does take some trial and error but you'll get it worked out and do just fine!

 

[pudland]

We are so used to our directions from work and things coming from a computer, and that's a great thing for us, but the directions from the computer are only as good as the data put into it- and that might take a few batches before the data we enter is perfect.

Oh I agree with you 100% on that!

I have a long spoon with the gallon markings on it. So I stick the spoon in there,

Me to.. I have 1 for the HLT and 1 for the boil pot... I don't like to waste water.

(The grain won't absorb liquid this time, like when you mash in).

Good point to remember for new brewers...

It does take some trial and error but you'll get it worked out and do just fine!

@mcfire12 This ^^^ means be patient, take lots of notes!

 

[Yooper]

I thought mash out was at 170*F to stop the enzymes? Is it a mash out when adding water at 148-156*F?

No. Mashing out is only when you add hot enough water (often 190 or so for batch sparging) to raise the entire grainbed/mash to 168 and hold that for at least 10 minutes to denature the enzymes.

The reason mashing out is rarely done with batch sparging is because it is unnecessary. You drain the first runnings, and put them on the heat right away- that is going to denature the enzymes quickly as it won't take long at all to get from mash temp to 170.

When I batch sparge, I do heat the sparge water up a little more so that the sparging is in the 160s. But I also don't sweat it- you can sparge with cold water if you want. There isn't a decrease in efficiency.

Think of batch sparging as a "rinse cycle" in a washing machine. It's the agitation (stirring) that 'knocks' the sugars into the liquid and then it is drained, just like your washing machine's rinse cycle. Fresh water, agitation, then draining. Unless you add too much soap or something to your washer, you don't need a second rinse. It's sort of like that with sparging. If you stir completely, and drain, you maximize what you get and don't benefit all that much from a second round- you get most of it the first time.

 

[pudland]

The .6 addition is (according to Denny, and Brad Smith loves Denny) to be added to the end of the mash BEFORE the first running. Then the second addition is mathematically calculated to equal the first running.

No, that's a "mash out" addition.....

See, the above exchange is where I was thrown.. I didn't see any temps mentioned for the ".6 addition" and already had the understanding that the quote below held true...

The reason mashing out is rarely done with batch sparging is because it is unnecessary. You drain the first runnings, and put them on the heat right away- that is going to denature the enzymes quickly as it won't take long at all to get from mash temp to 170.

And to throw more about mash temps into the mix for a new PM / AG brewer...

Mash temps do matter...

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-1.html

 

[Yooper]

See, the above exchange is where I was thrown.. I didn't see any temps mentioned for the ".6 addition" and already had the understanding that the quote below held true...




And to throw more about mash temps into the mix for a new PM / AG brewer...

Mash temps do matter...

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-1.html

Yes of course mash temps matter! But we're talking about sparging here.

 

[AnOldUR]

No, that's a "mash out" addition.

Like she says above, it's not really a mash out if you don't raise the bed temperature to denaturing levels. Think of it as simply topping off the mash. It allows you to use a mash thickness that won't let pH get out of hand, but still do no-sparge or to balance out your volume so that you get equal runnings if you are batch sparging. The top off addition is not technically sparging since no wort has left the tun before this point.

 

[joshesmusica]

I heat my total water volume in the brew kettle, then add to the mash tun(s). After mash, I drain those in collection buckets which allows me to (1) measure the strength of each "running" (2) decide if 2 batches sparges are fine or if I want to do a third (3) keep the strike water separate and heat it during mash so its essentially at mash out temps, and have control in case I mess up numbers and need to add more or not use as much.

When I have collected my total volume of wort (usually two batch sparges), I can dump any excess strike / sparge water and add the collected worts to the kettle.

I used to do two sparges, collect in buckets, and then do a dunk sparge with the mash (in paint strainer bags) inside the kettle with the remaining water. Often that dunk water would be ~1.020. On my last batch, I had too much grain for one cooler, but it was only 1/2 capacity for two coolers. I did two batch sparges where I added mashout water just before I drained it making the qt/lb ratio very soupy. My efficiency went from my typical 80% up to 87%. I didn't do a dunk sparge this time and felt like I had really good control.

If this is confusing, please ask for clarification. I found it really easy, and forgiving. Sometimes I find the trickiest part is estimating your initial total water volume.

The problem with this method is that the enzymes continue to work while you're waiting to start up the boil. I would bet you're getting pretty low attenuation out of the beers mashed this way. Unless you're mashing at really high temps to make up or this?

 

[masonsjax]

Mashing modern grains is done very quickly. Many of us have been doing 15-20 min mashes with very little change in fermentability. If a 60 min mash doesn't thin out your beer, taking a few mins to get to a boil certainly wont hurt.

 

[pudland]

Yes of course mash temps matter! But we're talking about sparging here.

Yes yes...! Sorry, off topic! My bad...

 

[AnOldUR]

Mashing modern grains is done very quickly. Many of us have been doing 15-20 min mashes with very little change in fermentability. If a 60 min mash doesn't thin out your beer, taking a few mins to get to a boil certainly wont hurt.

That has less to do with modern grains and more to do with technique. "Many of us" are not using the fine crush and BIAB that's needed for the 15 minute mash to be effective.

 

[masonsjax]

I've been doing 20 min mash for a couple of years now using my cooler w/braid mash tun. It works great and shaves a bunch of time off a brew day. I don't want to derail this thread, but the point is that skipping a mashout will not appreciably impact wort fermentability.

 

[pudland]

I'm really interested in batch sparge to save time on brew day, so maybe this is the way to go?

So... with the plethora of info... how have you decided to proceed?

 

[joshesmusica]

I've been doing 20 min mash for a couple of years now using my cooler w/braid mash tun. It works great and shaves a bunch of time off a brew day. I don't want to derail this thread, but the point is that skipping a mashout will not appreciably impact wort fermentability.

Have you done any side by side comparisons of the same recipe mashed at 20 and at 60 mins, as it pertains to flavor, mouthfeel, aroma, head retention, etc.?

 

[broadbill]

Have you done any side by side comparisons of the same recipe mashed at 20 and at 60 mins, as it pertains to flavor, mouthfeel, aroma, head retention, etc.?

check out RM-MN's posts on the subject, on this forum.

 

[broadbill]

The problem with this method is that the enzymes continue to work while you're waiting to start up the boil. I would bet you're getting pretty low attenuation out of the beers mashed this way. Unless you're mashing at really high temps to make up or this?

you mean high attenuation....if enzymes continue to convert then they are producing more fermentable sugars and you get increased attenuation.

 

[AnOldUR]

I've been doing 20 min mash for a couple of years now using my cooler w/braid mash tun. It works great and shaves a bunch of time off a brew day. I don't want to derail this thread, but the point is that skipping a mashout will not appreciably impact wort fermentability.

What's the mash temperature? Step mash? No-sparge or multiples? Heat runnings as soon as there's enough in kettle or wait until full volume is collected? How much time from when you start your lauter and the wort reaches denaturing temperatures? All these things and more vary greatly from brewer to brewer. How much a mashout will change the fermentabiliy of the wort depends on the answers and can have an appreciable impact on it.

 

[joshesmusica]

you mean high attenuation....if enzymes continue to convert then they are producing more fermentable sugars and you get increased attenuation.

Yeah I meant it attenuates to a lower gravity.

 

[doug293cz]

...

Taken from Dennybrew:
Let’s see how this works in a brewing session. Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort. A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water. Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash. Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff. Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff. After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water. Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before. These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

The "Dennybrew Method" is based on maximizing efficiency based on two assumptions:

1. That a strike water to grain ratio near 1.25 qt/lb will maximize conversion efficiency, and
2. That equal run off volumes will maximize lauter efficiency when batch sparging.

So, you mash at the chosen strike water to grain ratio (to maximize conversion efficiency), and then before initial run off you add enough additional water so that you will get equal run off with your sparge(s).

The problem is that the first assumption has been proven wrong by Kai Troester (http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency). Quoting Kai:

"In the limit of attenuation experiments it was shown that a 5 l/kg (2.4 qt/lb) mash showed much better conversion efficiency than a 2.5 l/kg (1.2 qt/lb) mash. This is also supported by anecdotal experience from home brewers who found that thin mashes generally lead to better overall efficiency.

While thick mashes help to stabilize the enzymes which makes them active for a longer time, they also inhibit their activity (substrate inhibition) and make it more difficult for the starch to gelatenize. As a result in thinner mashes the conversion processes occur faster. "​

So, since thinner mashes do not decrease conversion efficiency (if anything they improve it), there is no benefit to limiting the strike water to grain ratio to low values. You will be better off mashing in with all of the water needed to achieve the initial run off volume. You do need to make sure your water adjustments are based on the larger strike volume to insure correct mash pH.

The second assumption upon which the "Dennybrew Method" is based is valid. It is based on well established rinse dilution mathematics.

Note: The incorrect assumption that thicker mashes provide faster conversion than thinner mashes is based on a simplistic and flawed analysis that considers enzyme concentration as the only parameter important in controlling saccharification rate (at a particular temperature.) As Kai points out a higher concentration of starches and dextrines works to inhibit the action of the enzymes, and is actually a more important factor than the enzyme concentration.

Brew on

 

[Denny]

hi guys, just finished up making my mash tun and hlt, getting ready to do my first all grain brew. I'm confused about some of it. I do have beersmith and friends who do all grain, but they fly sparge with a pretty complicated system. So from what I gather...
I'll mash in with whatever amount and temp beersmith provides me after pre heating the mash tun. This part seems easy enough. Now where I'm confused is on batch sparging.

At the end of 60 min mash, I should add the first small amount of Sparge water, then stir, Let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, Drain completely.

Then add second larger addition of sparge water, stir, let sit 10 mins, vorlauf, then drain. Is this all correct? Seems like I wouldn't be rinsing all the sugars off with all the stirring.

I'm also confused on why I need hotter sparge water.

No, you don't add a small amount of sparge water and let it sit. There is never any need to let the sparge water sit before runoff.

You use hotter sparge water to insure you have complete conversion before running off your sparge. Many people think they're doing a mashout but they're not. Almost no homebrewer raises the grain bed above 170 and lets it sot for 20 min., which is what you need to do for a mashout. In additon, beciaseu you get t a boil so much more quickly when you batch sparge compared to fly sparging, there is no benefit to doing a mashout. see www.dennybrew.com for complete ionfo.

 

[Denny]

I do this exactly. It is how Denny does it, and it works.


Taken from Dennybrew:
Let’s see how this works in a brewing session. Assume a recipe with 10 lb. of grain, and that you need to collect 7 gal. of pre boil wort. A mash ration of 1.25 qt./lb. would require 12.5 qt. or 3.125 gal. of strike water. Based on an absorption of .1 gal./lb., the mash would absorb 1 gal. of water so we’d get 2.125 gal. of water from the mash. Since we want to collect 3.5 gal. (or 50% of the boil volume), after the mash is complete we’d add 1.375 gal. (5.5 qt.) of water to mash tun before the first runoff. Stir the additional water in, let it sit for a few minutes, then vorlauf until clear and start your runoff. After the runoff, we add 3.5 gal. of batch sparge water. Stir it in well, then vorlauf and runoff as before. These two runoffs will give us our pre boil volume of 7 gal. of sweet wort.

I no longer recommend that method. Increase the amount of mash water so you get approximately 1/2 your total boil volume from the mash. Get the rest of your boil volume from the sparge.

 

[Denny]

Also, what is the reasoning for wanting both "runnings" of the batch sparge to be the same amount of water? Not sure I understand that either.

It's not the same amount of water...it's the same amount of wort run off. You need to use more water for the mash due to grain absorption. Theoretically, you get the highest efficiency that way. But in reality as long as the mash and sparge runoff are within about a gal. of each other it's pleanty close enough!

 

[joshesmusica]

The "Dennybrew Method" is based on maximizing efficiency based on two assumptions:

1. That a strike water to grain ratio near 1.25 qt/lb will maximize conversion efficiency, and
   
2. That equal run off volumes will maximize lauter efficiency when batch sparging.

So, you mash at the chosen strike water to grain ratio (to maximize conversion efficiency), and then before initial run off you add enough additional water so that you will get equal run off with your sparge(s).



The problem is that the first assumption has been proven wrong by Kai Troester (http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency). Quoting Kai:

"In the limit of attenuation experiments it was shown that a 5 l/kg (2.4 qt/lb) mash showed much better conversion efficiency than a 2.5 l/kg (1.2 qt/lb) mash. This is also supported by anecdotal experience from home brewers who found that thin mashes generally lead to better overall efficiency.



While thick mashes help to stabilize the enzymes which makes them active for a longer time, they also inhibit their activity (substrate inhibition) and make it more difficult for the starch to gelatenize. As a result in thinner mashes the conversion processes occur faster. "​

So, since thinner mashes do not decrease conversion efficiency (if anything they improve it), there is no benefit to limiting the strike water to grain ratio to low values. You will be better off mashing in with all of the water needed to achieve the initial run off volume. You do need to make sure your water adjustments are based on the larger strike volume to insure correct mash pH.



The second assumption upon which the "Dennybrew Method" is based is valid. It is based on well established rinse dilution mathematics.



Note: The incorrect assumption that thicker mashes provide faster conversion than thinner mashes is based on a simplistic and flawed analysis that considers enzyme concentration as the only parameter important in controlling saccharification rate (at a particular temperature.) As Kai points out a higher concentration of starches and dextrines works to inhibit the action of the enzymes, and is actually a more important factor than the enzyme concentration.



Brew on

I no longer recommend that method. Increase the amount of mash water so you get approximately 1/2 your total boil volume from the mash. Get the rest of your boil volume from the sparge.

Well there ya go, that about solves that issue.

 

[Denny]

It can be mathematically proven that you get maximum lautering efficiency if each sparge run off is equal volume (ref: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Batch_Sparging_Analysis.) In order to get equal run offs, divide your target pre-boil volume by the number of run offs you will conduct (1 + the number of sparge steps.) Then add your predicted grain absorption to this number to get your strike water volume. Predicted grain absorption is your total grain weight times the absorption rate for your system (typically 0.11 to 0.125 gal/lb for traditional MLT's.)

Forget about traditional mash water to grain ratios. Those are only appropriate for fly (continuous) sparging. Thinner mashes will help with your efficiency.

Brew on

And equal runoffs just don't make that much difference in reality.

 

[Denny]

Seems that you guys are only sparging once? I've read that there are benefits to adding half the sparge water, stirring, and draining, then repeating with the last portion of sparge water. Or is this just wasting time?

Nope, no benefit. The only reason to do that is if you can't fit all your sparge water in the mash tun at once.