trying to improve attenuation (DME brewer)

[rcsarver]

Hi, I posted here because it seemed to fit into many possible forums. Basically all of my brews have been less attenuated than I hoped. Worst one, I went to bottle an Indian Brown Ale clone (OG 1.082-put too much extract in) and it was 1.034. For this I steeped 2.5-3 lbs of crystal, chocolate, and other dark grains. I have been steeping 155-165 for 30 minutes, and I know these temps can produce more unfermentables if I were mashing. In the Extreme Brewing book, the steeping directions are different from kit directions, the book says to steep into cold water until it reaches 170 rather than steep for 20, 30 minutes at 150, 160, but no higher than 170. I want to bring down the FG on my beers! I have a few ideas but want to know which is best / try each one independently so I know what is causing it the most.

- If steeping with extract, try the "Extreme Brewing" method (but pull out at 165 not 170).
- Start doing some Deathbrewer style partial mash instead of DME
- err on the more attenuative side of yeasts. I'm looking at nottingham and dry saison yeasts, but am looking for recommendations.
- in winter my basement is 60 degrees, possibly ferment upstairs where it is 70, or start fermentation in the basement, bring it upstairs in day 3 or 4.

What do you think is the biggest contributor to high FG?

 

[jeremy0209]

WLP 001, US-05, and Notty are all good attenuators (75-80%) but, if you're brewing 5 gallons, 2.5-3 lb of crystal and roasted malts seems like a lot to me. With that much specialty grains, you may have a ton of unfermentables. Also, I was listening to an episode of Brew Strong yesterday and Jamil said that, if you want to get a couple of more points out of a beer, you can pitch a lager yeast at ale temps. The thought is that lager yeast can eat some of the long chain sugars that ale yeast can't. Also, I think that, for the most part, you won't get quite the attenuation with extract batches that you can get with all grain.

 

[Denny]

OK, first using 2-3 lb. of crystal will add a huge amount of unfermentable sugar to your beer. Cut way back on that. The temp won't matter much becasue the crystals are already convereted so you didn't denature any enzymes. Next, use the lightest DME you can find...pretty much any extract will have malts other than base malts which add more unfermentables. The darker the malt, the more unfermentables. Next, replace part of the DME with plain old table sugar. You can do that on a 1:1 basis. Start with 1/2 lb. and see what happens. Sugar is 100% fermentable, where DME is not.

More attenuative yeast will do you no good is your wort isn't fermentable. Try these tips before the other stuff you list. They're easier and more likely to get you what you want.

 

[Denny]

I was listening to an episode of Brew Strong yesterday and Jamil said that, if you want to get a couple of more points out of a beer, you can pitch a lager yeast at ale temps. The thought is that lager yeast can eat some of the long chain sugars that ale yeast can't. Also, I think that, for the most part, you won't get quite the attenuation with extract batches that you can get with all grain.

I'm sorry, but that just won't do it. It's a silly idea. Sorry, JZ....

 

[jeremy0209]

I'm sorry, but that just won't do it. It's a silly idea. Sorry, JZ....

Just to clarify, he said to do that after primary fermentation had finished.

 

[rcsarver]

Supposed to be a 4 gallon batch but I topped off with less at last minute to leave more headspace in the carboy.

~1.5 steeping grains for 3.3 gallon recipe.
for brown sugar, I made some invert syrup on my stove top, it was medium between light and dark.

This beer was 1.034 after 2.5 weeks in 60F room, .5 weeks in 72F room.

For other beers, I finish 3-4 pts (hefe no steeping grains), 10 pts, or above, so I think what you are saying about grains is a big part of it. How long and at what temp would you recommend for steeping?



HOME BREW RECIPE:
Title: Indian Brown Ale Clone MOD
Author: HomebrewTalk

Brew Method: Extract
Style Name: American IPA
Boil Time: 60 min
Batch Size: 3.3 gallons (fermentor volume)
Boil Size: 3 gallons
Boil Gravity: 1.091
Efficiency: 35% (steeping grains only)

STATS:
Original Gravity: 1.082
Final Gravity: 1.025
ABV (standard): 7.56%
IBU (tinseth): 62.81
SRM (morey): 34.98

FERMENTABLES:
0.4 lb - Brown Sugar (5.3%)
5.6 lb - Dry Malt Extract - Extra Light (74%)

STEEPING GRAINS:
2.5 oz - Belgian - Special B (2.1%)
14 oz - United Kingdom - Crystal 60L (11.6%)
7 oz - United Kingdom - Chocolate (5.8%)
1.5 oz - United Kingdom - Roasted Barley (1.2%)

HOPS:
1 oz - Warrior, Type: Pellet, AA: 15.7, Use: Boil for 60 min, IBU: 62.81
1 oz - Domestic Hallertau, Type: Pellet, AA: 3.9, Use: Hopback for 0 min at °F

YEAST:
Wyeast - Ringwood Ale 1187
Starter: No
Form: Liquid
Attenuation (avg): 70%
Flocculation: High
Optimum Temp: 64 - 74 F
Fermentation Temp: 70 F
Pitch Rate: 0.35 (M cells / ml / deg P)


Generated by Brewer's Friend - http://www.brewersfriend.com/
Date: 2014-03-16 18:10 UTC
Recipe Last Updated: 2014-03-16 18:10 UTC

 

[Denny]

Just to clarify, he said to do that after primary fermentation had finished.

That doesn't matter.

 

[Denny]

How long and at what temp would you recommend for steeping?

For the grain you're steeping it doesn't really matter. 20 min, at 150 will work as well as 2 hours at 170.

I see you're using Ringwood. That's a troublesome yeast. i t needs a huge amount of aeration when you pitch and flocculates easily. Personally, I've never cared for either its performance or its flavor.

 

[rcsarver]

For the specific recipe posted above, brewers friend estimated FG at 1.025, measuring after priming at bottling, it was 1.0335. Is it possible for it to be fully fermented 6-8 points above the website, or should I expect some bottle bombs? Either way I'm going to crack one open, check gravity, and recap every few days.

 

[Denny]

For the specific recipe posted above, brewers friend estimated FG at 1.025, measuring after priming at bottling, it was 1.0335. Is it possible for it to be fully fermented 6-8 points above the website, or should I expect some bottle bombs? Either way I'm going to crack one open, check gravity, and recap every few days.

Any software that attempts to predict FG is bogus. They base it on the attenuation rating of the yeast. That should only be used to compare one strain to another using a standard wort. The calculators do not take wort composition and fermentability into account, which is the major factor in determining attenuation. It's entirely possible that everything that can be fermented has been, especially given your recipe.

 

[dobe12]

I'm going to second Denny's points from above (use the lightest DME available, use some sugar, WAY too many specialty grains in that original recipe) and add, if you are steeping specialty malts, why not mash some base malt along with it? You can mash low 145-150F range and cut back some of your extract. This will help get your FG lower.

 

[cjgenever]

Find the attenuation of the extract first. Work from there.

Btw... 3 lbs of c is a lot

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[rcsarver]

Find the attenuation of the extract first. Work from there.

Btw... 3 lbs of c is a lot

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

Briess Pilsen dme. Website says 75% fermentability. That seems on the high side for dme from what I've read. I assume yeast is not eating higher saccharides but could it have trouble with maltriose?

 

[Yooper]

Briess Pilsen dme. Website says 75% fermentability. That seems on the high side for dme from what I've read. I assume yeast is not eating higher saccharides but could it have trouble with maltriose?

The one yeast strain I saw in the recipe, ringwood, is a real PITA yeast. It's tempermental, unpredictable, and sometimes a diacetyl bomb. The temperature may be a bit too low for the strain as well, and maybe it was underpitched if you didn't make a starter. That's one issue with the recipe. But there are others.

I'd definitely not use 14% crystal malt in any extract beer without special techniques like subbing some corn sugar for some of the extract, etc. Most recipes are best done with 8%-10% crystal as a max, depending on the style.

For now, maybe try warming it up to 70 degrees if you can to see if you can coax a few more points out of it and encourage the yeast to clean up any diacetyl it created during fermentation.