Trying to get more beer out of my wort and less trub\hops!

[DrummoRC]

I 40L pot with false bottom to keep the bag off the bottom and it came with a stainless steel screen tube that screws to the ball valve. The screen tube is my problem it clogs up and I have to siphon the wort out - leaving almost 2 gallons I the bottom of the kettle!

I would love to hear others have dealt with this issue!
I know the first thing I need to do is start putting my hops into hop bag instead of dumping the pellets into the boil directly.

Any thought or suggests would be appreciated


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[RM-MN]

Wait! What? 2 gallons left in a 40 qt pot? Pick it up and dump it. I do that with 5 1/2 gallons left in a 30 qt pot but that gets a little heavy.

 

[jmh286]

Wait! What? 2 gallons left in a 40 qt pot? Pick it up and dump it. I do that with 5 1/2 gallons left in a 30 qt pot but that gets a little heavy.

Yea just pick it up and dump it in. Or use something to tilt the kettle while you siphon it. I used to use a sanitized pitcher to get my wort from kettle to carboy, but have since upgraded to a bigger kettle with a ball valve.


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[DrummoRC]

Sorry that is 40 Liter not quart - I know the ratio is not too bad but still hate to waste.

 

[The_Bishop]

Take the screen tube off.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Take the screen tube off.

Yes, that kettle screen is more for mashing, that doesn't really work for trub unless you have enough filter bed with whole hops.

You don't need the false bottom either IMHO. If you need to add heat, do it gently and stir.

I wouldn't worry about the trub and hop pellets, let it ferment and settle w gravity in the fermenter.

 

[DrummoRC]

I assume you move your fermentation after a say 5 days as the sediment must be thick? I like the idea myself no waste I would just be prone to move it to secondary after 3-5 days if I brought that much particulates into the fermenter.

Otherwise I don't always move my batches to secondary vessels. Mostly - primary two weeks to-> keg two weeks to-> belly two weeks! I love how that works!

 

[wilserbrewer]

I assume you move your fermentation after a say 5 days as the sediment must be thick?
!

I'm a little unorthodox, I chill or sometimes "no chill" in the kettle, then pitch yeast directly to the kettle, seal the kettle and ferment 7-12 days, then keg and let that condition at cellar temps for a week or two pipeline dependent, then move it to the kegerator and let it cold condition and carb for another week or so.

Seems to work fine for the mid gravity ales I prefer.

 

[DrummoRC]

That is a little different then most! Interesting concept!




RC Drummond
In fermentation
Saison
Small batch hop test (Nelson Sauvin - new hop for me)
German Ale
In Keg aging - Vienna Lager
On Tap - Amarillo Brillo

 

[DonH]

Well, why not snag some hop bags? I have not noticed any difference in flavor from a bag or not... Also are you whirl pooling to build a nice trub cone??

 

[DrummoRC]

Yeah a hop bag might
Help some - I have also seen some interesting stainless screen strainers that might achieve what I hope to accomplish



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[Clarke]

I have more than one paint strainer bag and I put one of the 5 gallon bags in my fermenting bucket and just dump my cooled wart into the bucket, pull the bag out and squeeze the liquid out of the bag leaving all the trub and hops behind in the bag, I don't even worry about hop bags any more, works like a charm.

 

[glockspeed31]

I just started straining my wort as it goes into the fermenter. This takes care of two things at once. Straining out the trub and aerating the wort prior to yeast pitching. Seems to work OK.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I used to pour all my wort through a strainer as it went into the fermenter but its not the way to go about it now that I know better. Why ensure a good hot break, cold break, use irish moss, etc to separate the proteins just to dump it all back in the fermenter? The strainer just won't get all the break material, it'll get all the hops, but not all the break material.
Get a good whirlpool going and it will get most of everything into the center of the kettle, even with an IC in the kettle. To save time I do it while the wort is cooling. When your done, leave your chiller there and use your siphon to rack the wort through a strainer into the fermenter. I usually take the extra step to let the fermenter sit for another 20 mins and rack the wort over into another fermenter leaving all the trub behind.
You should only be leaving 1/4-1/2 gal behind through the whole process. To me this is the most efficient way of doing this and the least amount of work physically if you use your siphon.

Note if you use whole cones you'll want to tie a strainer around the end of the siphon otherwise they can get stuck in your siphon.

 

[DrummoRC]

I have more than one paint strainer bag and I put one of the 5 gallon bags in my fermenting bucket and just dump my cooled wart into the bucket, pull the bag out and squeeze the liquid out of the bag leaving all the trub and hops behind in the bag, I don't even worry about hop bags any more, works like a charm.

So simple - why didn't I think of it! :-0) I was looking right thru that approach! Will try this idea next brew day! thanks!



RC Drummond
In fermentation
Saison
Small batch hop test (Nelson Sauvin - new hop for me)
German Ale
In Keg aging - Vienna Lager
On Tap - Amarillo Brillo

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

So simple - why didn't I think of it! :-0) I was looking right thru that approach! Will try this idea next brew day! thanks!



RC Drummond
In fermentation
Saison
Small batch hop test (Nelson Sauvin - new hop for me)
German Ale
In Keg aging - Vienna Lager
On Tap - Amarillo Brillo

This is still going to leave you a ton of trub at the bottom of your fermenter. Its also going to take an equal amount of time or longer than siphoning and be more labor intensive. I prefer to work smart not hard but that's just me.

 

[Oberon]

I'm a little unorthodox, I chill or sometimes "no chill" in the kettle, then pitch yeast directly to the kettle, seal the kettle and ferment 7-12 days, then keg and let that condition at cellar temps for a week or two pipeline dependent, then move it to the kegerator and let it cold condition and carb for another week or so.

Seems to work fine for the mid gravity ales I prefer.

Do you have more than one kettle? I've thought about doing this but I often have more than one thing fermenting at once. I guess you use a shorter fermentation than I do...

 

[wilserbrewer]

Yes, I do have more than one kettle, I also have a B/C 44 qt that I'm using as a waste basket for fabric scraps in the shop, I'm a kettleaholic

Like puppies, if I see one at a good price, I can't help myself and bring it home.

 

[Clarke]

So simple - why didn't I think of it! :-0) I was looking right thru that approach! Will try this idea next brew day! thanks!



RC Drummond
In fermentation
Saison
Small batch hop test (Nelson Sauvin - new hop for me)
German Ale
In Keg aging - Vienna Lager
On Tap - Amarillo Brillo

Sanitize your bag first, as if you didn't already know... I boil mine on the stove for a few minutes.

 

[Clarke]

This is still going to leave you a ton of trub at the bottom of your fermenter. Its also going to take an equal amount of time or longer than siphoning and be more labor intensive. I prefer to work smart not hard but that's just me.

I have not a clue to how you are doing it, but you are wrong sir.

It only takes a few seconds and done, all I have at the bottom of my fermenter is yeast...

 

[jnacey]

I usually siphon into my carboy/buckets straight out of my kettle. I don't use any bags for my pellet hops and I use whirlfloc during the boil. My experience has been that, yes, you will transfer some trub to the primary and it does get thrown around during fermentation, but afterwards when the yeast floc they pull all of this down onto the cake. I also toss a vial of ClarityFerm into my wort at pitch time (I don't have a dedicated fridge to cold crash) and I can always get great tasting, high clarity beers. So in summary, pull a little trub with your siphon and don't worry about it.

 

[kharper6]

Thanks to Wilser I have a few voile hop bags I brew with. Haven't had any lacking hop profile since I started using those and zero trub in the boil kettle.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

I have not a clue to how you are doing it, but you are wrong sir.

It only takes a few seconds and done, all I have at the bottom of my fermenter is yeast...

In my experience Ive gotten way cleaner cakes when I stopped doing that. Ive used paint strainers and cheese clothes. I've tried using more than one and even folding them to make a thicker filter. Changing out of that routine has given me better results. So I have no clue how your doing what your doing..... but I won't sit here and say your wrong. If it works for you great for you.
Id just like to point out your response is unnecessarily rude. Not sure why you can't say you've had different experiences in a more mannered tone. Being a ******* defeats the purpose of a forum and I'd hope you don't talk to new members that way or you'll just run them out of here.

 

[wilserbrewer]

This is still going to leave you a ton of trub at the bottom of your fermenter. Its also going to take an equal amount of time or longer than siphoning and be more labor intensive. I prefer to work smart not hard but that's just me.

KWB,

I think you inferred here that someone was not working smart? Perhaps that is part of the issue here....

You guys need a group hug, but count me out!

FWIW, on the topic, I am more prone to siphon off the solids, rather than filter.

 

[smizak]

I cover the end of my Autosiphon with a boiled stainless steel pot scrubber. I siphon until it stops, because no way I'm picking up 6 gallons of wort. When it stops, I strain the rest through a stainless wire colander.

Don't worry about the trub/floc/hops. The Whirlfloc/irish moss makes it insoluble and will get pulled down with the yeast like the other posters suggest.

 

[Oberon]

View attachment 188641

Yes, I do have more than one kettle, I also have a B/C 44 qt that I'm using as a waste basket for fabric scraps in the shop, I'm a kettleaholic

Like puppies, if I see one at a good price, I can't help myself and bring it home.

You have a problem! Come to think of it I have two kettles...maybe I'll try an experimental batch with my nine gallon pot. Cool idea.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

KWB,

I think you inferred here that someone was not working smart? Perhaps that is part of the issue here....

You guys need a group hug, but count me out!

FWIW, on the topic, I am more prone to siphon off the solids, rather than filter.

Perhaps I could have used a better choice of words. What I mean by it is I'd rather pump a siphon twice and let it run than lift a kettle full of wort or using a smaller container to do it bit by bit. I used to do it that way and one day I stopped and asked myself... "Why am I doing it this way when a siphon is so much easier? I should be working smart not hard." That's when I noticed I was getting cleaner cakes leaving it in the kettle.

 

[lowelldw]

I have more than one paint strainer bag and I put one of the 5 gallon bags in my fermenting bucket and just dump my cooled wart into the bucket, pull the bag out and squeeze the liquid out of the bag leaving all the trub and hops behind in the bag, I don't even worry about hop bags any more, works like a charm.

I did his with my last batch and it seemed to work very good!!

 

[Clarke]

In my experience Ive gotten way cleaner cakes when I stopped doing that. Ive used paint strainers and cheese clothes. I've tried using more than one and even folding them to make a thicker filter. Changing out of that routine has given me better results. So I have no clue how your doing what your doing..... but I won't sit here and say your wrong. If it works for you great for you.
Id just like to point out your response is unnecessarily rude. Not sure why you can't say you've had different experiences in a more mannered tone. Being a ******* defeats the purpose of a forum and I'd hope you don't talk to new members that way or you'll just run them out of here.

I am very sorry for offending you, I was very direct with my response, but in all fairness you basically implied that my technique would still leave “tons of trub” and would “take just as long if not longer”, when you could have just said “well in my experience” as you just implied to me. My experience is much different to yours and I am only trying to share my experience, And yes you did imply that you are “smarter” so when rude comes around it goes around… I am not wanting to upset anyone, I am a new guy to this forum and I don’t imply I am smarter than anyone as you just did to me.

but if we can start fresh, I apologize...

 

[wilserbrewer]

Come to think of it I have two kettles...maybe I'll try an experimental batch with my nine gallon pot. Cool idea.

I started kettle fermenting around the time that the Brewing Network did a fairly involved study on the impact of hops and trub left in the fermenter. If I recall correctly, their results showed little if any impact on the final brew.

Another side benefit, it is very easy to collect the yeast at the bottom of the kettle / fermenter. Sometimes I brew in another pot, and rack a fermented beer at the same time, then just scoop up some yeast and transfer it to the unfermented wort....easy...easy!

 

[Clarke]

I started kettle fermenting around the time that the Brewing Network did a fairly involved study on the impact of hops and trub left in the fermenter. If I recall correctly, their results showed little if any impact on the final brew.

Another side benefit, it is very easy to collect the yeast at the bottom of the kettle / fermenter. Sometimes I brew in another pot, and rack a fermented beer at the same time, then just scoop up some yeast and transfer it to the unfermented wort....easy...easy!

Before I started to use a bag to filter with, I would just dump my entire kettle into the bucket(I did use hop socks) but my siphon would always get clogged and I would be like frig it, and just dump it in and say let’s see what happens, I found no ill e-affect to this, I am impressed with your kettle fermentation technique, I really like it when people go against the norm.

 

[Clarke]

I'm a little unorthodox, I chill or sometimes "no chill" in the kettle, then pitch yeast directly to the kettle, seal the kettle and ferment 7-12 days, then keg and let that condition at cellar temps for a week or two pipeline dependent, then move it to the kegerator and let it cold condition and carb for another week or so.

Seems to work fine for the mid gravity ales I prefer.

Wilserbrewer, I was brewing yesterday and before I racked to my primary I thought about your kettle primary technique... I am building up courage to try it. couple of questions. For me there is usually a lot of krud on the side and rim of the kettle from hot break and hops and such, will this not get mold and funk during primary fermentation? How do you seal your kettle? and when doing a no chill, (not sure what this means) but I think means you just let it cool natural over time? if this is the case, would this not turn your flavor and aroma hops into a more bittering hop because the temp doesn't drop that fast?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Oh Clark have a little faith....sorry just kidding around, Do you keg or bottle? This works IMO because you are using the kettle fermenter similar to a primary fermenter that was popular years ago. Rather than pouring everything into the fermenter, I thought one day what the hell I'll just pitch the yeast in the kettle. Many years ago, they sold my buddies and I a white tall plastic container, a primary fermenter, with the instruction to just use saran wrap over the top secured with a rubber band or a string. During active fermentation, CO2 is off gassing so rapidly that nothing will enter the fermenter if it is reasonably sealed.

You could try and mix the hop / trub ring that forms on the kettle during the boil back into the boil with your brew spoon, but I wouldn't fret over it....it is sanitary and will be in a CO2 environment...

I move my hop additions as advised for no chill brewing. FWH and / or bittering hops as usual, then any 20 minute addition is typically added at flameout. I like to hop stand, adding additional large quantities of hops as the wort slowly cools in the kettle b/w 180 and 160. After a while, and after the last hop stand addition when the wort is around 160 degrees (note pasteurization temps), I lid the kettle and forget about it for roughly 10-12 hours. Next, I put the kettle either into a swamp cooler or my fermentation freezer to bring it down the last 10 degrees or so into the mid-low sixties, aerate and pitch yeast in the kettle and put the lid back on. AND LEAVE IT ON!!!

After a couple few days after the bulk of fermentation, I usually take a plastic bag and put it over the kettle, and then wrap a string several times around the kettle and tie it snug. The bag will expand and exhibit positive pressure. After 7-12 days depending, I will rack to a keg and let the beer condition for another week or so at cellar temps....pipeline dependant....if I have NO beer, that puppy is likely heading straight to the keezer...haha

Best to pitch plenty of yeast, as always so you get a nice vigorous ferment and to give the favored yeast a leg up on any strays.

I wouldn't do this with beer I planned on aging for long periods, or even storing warm in bottles for long periods. The beer is typically in a keg in 2-3 weeks and kept nice and cold in the keezer to cold condition.

Now to really streamline the process, you can BIAB in the kettle, ferment in the kettle, then keg. A two vessel process....cheers!
Hope this helps. Hope you try it, would love to hear others experience with this fast and easy method...
wilser

 

[MindenMan]

I do AG, but question the same, How do I not lose a big part of my beer? I always chill the wort as much as possible, letting it settle, and then scoop it into the fermenter' paint strainers (5 gallon bucket paint strainers) double thick. A little bit of the very fine particles go through in the beginning, and as the trub starts to line the strainers, it makes it's own filter media. Patience will dictate how much of the wort is lost in the BK. Doing it this way, I have not had any problems. Just my $0.02

EDIT: None of my kettles have drain valves in them, and my back hurts for days if I lift and pour a full kettle. Since I work on the ground after cooling the wort, the "scoop" method allows me to not have the lift a pot until it is almost empty.

I have thought about putting my paint strainers into the bucket instead of making multiple layers in a colander. My logic asks, "How slowly do I have to lift the strainers out to not disturb the trub in them?"
I use Irish Moss @ 15 minutes, and until I hit the trub layer, my beer is crystal clear.

 

[wilserbrewer]

Here's a pic, I just snugged up a 1/4 keg of the house ale...let the yeast and gravity sort it out over the next week, then into a keg.

 

[wilserbrewer]

And the end result after a spell at keezer temps.
Cheers!

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Wilserbrewer, I was brewing yesterday and before I racked to my primary I thought about your kettle primary technique... I am building up courage to try it. couple of questions. For me there is usually a lot of krud on the side and rim of the kettle from hot break and hops and such, will this not get mold and funk during primary fermentation? How do you seal your kettle? and when doing a no chill, (not sure what this means) but I think means you just let it cool natural over time? if this is the case, would this not turn your flavor and aroma hops into a more bittering hop because the temp doesn't drop that fast?

My understanding is alpha acid isomerization occurs at about ~190f and above though Ive heard as low as 175f. Its also worth noting SSM is converted into DMS at temps at or above 140f and DMS evaporates at 99f. So until youve chilled your wort below those temps any SSM is still being converted to DMS and DMS is still evaporating. How you go forward with flameout additions is your call but those numbers are worth considering as far as sealing up the kettle to ferment in.

 

[wilserbrewer]

My understanding is alpha acid isomerization occurs at about ~190f and above though Ive heard as low as 175f. Its also worth noting SSM is converted into DMS at temps at or above 140f and DMS evaporates at 99f. So until youve chilled your wort below those temps any SSM is still being converted to DMS and DMS is still evaporating. How you go forward with flameout additions is your call but those numbers are worth considering as far as sealing up the kettle to ferment in.

Any advice as far as flame out or hop stand additions?

The DMS concerns would apply to any no chill brewing, correct?

Perhaps with a lighter lager beer the DMS would be more pronounced, but I haven't realized any issues with the more hop forward ales that I routinely brew. FWIW

Every once in a while I have a Rolling Rock Lager, which is supposedly the foster child for DMS, and I can't really find anything truly objectionable with the beer.
Cheers!

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Any advice as far as flame out or hop stand additions?

The DMS concerns would apply to any no chill brewing, correct?

Perhaps with a lighter lager beer the DMS would be more pronounced, but I haven't realized any issues with the more hop forward ales that I routinely brew. FWIW

Every once in a while I have a Rolling Rock Lager, which is supposedly the foster child for DMS, and I can't really find anything truly objectionable with the beer.
Cheers!

I've heard differing opinions but I think as long as you wait until the wort has cooled off below isomerization temps then less volatile oils are being driven off. FWIW I usually do my hop stands in the 150-160f range with the kettle half covered. Its low enough not to drive off all the volatile oils, high enough convert SMM and evaporate DMS, and hot enough to not promote bacterial growth.
DMS is a tricky thing with a lot of debate around it. It has to be present in a high enough concentration to be detected and most is driven off if you've boiled long enough. Some malts also have higher levels of SMM than others depending how long they've been kilned. This is why many people do 90 min boils if theyre using pilsner malt. The kicker is having a boil long enough to convert the SMM and evaporate off the DMS. At that point the majority of DMS should be driven off which leaves you less of an issue with a no chill method, assuming you have the lid on the kettle. Though with the kettle open any DMS thats left is free to escape. I think if your using 2 row or MO your more than likely getting the job done in the boil though I still like to play it safe and never fully cover my kettle just in case.

 

[RM-MN]

Yeast activity also plays a part in removing DMS but its hard to find info on just how much the yeast can reduce the DMS.