Treating mash and sparge water separately or only mash water?
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Timur
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For what I know, salts should be added to the mash water whereas acids (lactic/phosphoric acid) are better off being added to your sparge water to ensure consistent wort ph levels.
Gnomebrewer
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Acid should be added to the mash (if needed) to achieve the intended mash pH (nominally 5.4). Acid should be added to sparge water if it has moderate to high alkalinity, to neutralise the alkalinity. Acid can also be added directly to the boil to lower the boil pH, although this seems to be less common with homebrewers than acidifying mash and sparge.
Timur
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different strokes for different folks, I presume
VikeMan
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different strokes for different folks, I presume
Every mash needs some acidification to hit a pH in what is commonly considered the acceptable range. In a relatively low percentage of mashes, there's enough acidity in the grains (given the starting water profile) to get there. In an even lower percentage of mashes, there's too much acidity in the grains, and a base has to be added.
But in most mashes, additional acidification is needed. This can be via direct addition of an acid like lactic acid or phosphoric acid. And/or it can be via the addition of Calcium or Magnesium salts. The Calcium and Magnesium ions react with phosphates, releasing protons, which acidify the mash.
But the addition of those Calcium and/or Magnesium salts also adds Chloride and/or Sulfate ions, and often the amount of salts needed to bring the pH into range is enough to drive Chloride/Sulfate to undesirable levels.
I say all this to illustrate that it is very common to add acids directly to the mash (i.e. the strike water), i.e. it's not simply a matter of "different strokes."
They most definitely have to be added separately in some cases. If the water supply has much alkalinity and it called for adding acid to neutralize that sparging water alkalinity, then adding all that acid to the mashing water liquor is likely to drive the mashing pH too low. That can really screw up the brewing results. In addition, if there are salts recommended for the sparging water and they are added to the mashing water, that too can drive down the mashing pH.
It's best to add the acid and salt additions separately to their particular liquor. Those additions can have profound effect on the outcome.
Timur
Member
That’s exactly my point. Although I always use acidulated malt (it roughly comes to 0,2 kg for most of my malt bills), I defo treat sparge water with lactic acid to bring its ph level down to desirable 5,5-6,0 to avoid tannin extraction when lautering.
So essentially you are adding acid to your mash water, you just choose to add acid that is attached to acidulated malt.
Timur
Member
Fair enough
VikeMan
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Your point was that acid shouldn't be added to the mash, because you add acid to the mash? Okey doke.
Timur
Member
Acidulated malt is not 80% lactic acid, mate. And I never said that acid shouldn’t be added to the mash, what I actually said was that strike water should be treated with salts prior to all the malts going in.
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Timur
Member
Smart! Not.
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Please just back away politely instead of doubling down and getting nasty.
You said " For what I know, salts should be added to the mash water whereas acids (lactic/phosphoric acid) are better off being added to your sparge water to ensure consistent wort ph levels."
That was not the best advice so a few folks corrected that error.
Alkaline tap water and almost all RO/distilled water will require some acidification for beers in the copper to yellow area.
You then said you got your acid into the mash by using acidulated malt, which was a contradiction to your previous statements so you got called out on that too.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here but we're all trying to make sure the best advice is what sticks around for others to find.
Timur
Member
Blimey! Getting nasty? Where’d that come from? I only expressed one of the standpoints on water treatment, mate, saying that salts and acids are used separately. And all of a sudden, **** hits the fan and I’m the nasty one
What makes you think you’re right?Timur
Member
getting nasty
[/QUOTE
No offence intended and none taken, I hope.
VikeMan
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Really?
Any reasonable person reading what you wrote would think you were saying to not to add acid to the mash or the mash water. And that's just bad advice. That's why you got pushback.
@Bobby_M probably thinks he's right because he is quoting best brewing practices. Practices that he picked up in the decades he has been brewing. Or perhaps it's because he is well read in brewing science. Either way, he is right.
Whether I'm right or wrong about mash pH, acid, or anything else, my contribution to the thread was primarily meant as a linguistic post mortem. You said some things. People claimed inaccuracy. You claimed you didn't say that. People literally copy and pasted what you said as proof. I'm so bored now. I'm going to go calibrate my pH meter.
Gnomebrewer
Well-Known Member
This thread just keeps getting worse - I just realised the original question (and answer) was from over a year ago!
