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Transition from extract to all grain. What's the difference in end product?

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whoward

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Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as a new brewer I'm wondering what the advantage is to going all grain. I've watched YouTube videos on it and the process is much more complicated (or seems to be) and you need more equipment.

I've done 5 extract brews (two are currently in the fermenter) and have enjoyed the process and the beer. But I don't see the advantage to transitioning.

So what are the advantages?
 
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as a new brewer I'm wondering what the advantage is to going all grain. I've watched YouTube videos on it and the process is much more complicated (or seems to be) and you need more equipment.

I've done 5 extract brews (two are currently in the fermenter) and have enjoyed the process and the beer. But I don't see the advantage to transitioning.

So what are the advantages?

Hello,

I am not a seasoned veteran brewer by any means, but I still find myself jumping back and forth from all grain to extract depending on how big of a rush I may be in. I actually have some recipes that I only do in extract because I haven't been able to get the same beer doing all grain. some pros do extract batches and just steep specialty malts. Really they are both good, one is more work that the other. But it all boils down to what you want....literally. Im sure many brewers will chime in on this one. :mug:
 
Many times the flavor is cleaner. You also have more control over the flavors. Last but not least it is cheaper. Now if you are happy with what you have then I would continue with the extract. The larger improvement to flavor comes with temperature control during fermentation. If you can control the ferment now. then the next step to better beer would be all grain. There is a lot of brewers that swear that the brewing in a bag is as good as a 3 vessel system. Me I don't know but It is cheap to do all grain that way. basically you need to buy a bag that you put the grain in and put it in a properly sized pot and extract the sugar from the grain that way. I would worry about fermentation temperature control first and then all grain second. I personally brewed close to 10 extract batches before I tried to do the all grain.:mug:
 
For one. It's less expensive. Extract is pretty pricey.
50lb bag of grain run me $42-ish dollars from my local HBS.
It will make around 4 batches depending on strength desired.

Extract is around $10 per can. I typically would put no less than 2 cans in a single batch. So...

The difference? Honestly I've never been able to tell a difference between the two final products.
I just enjoy the me time when I brew. And the whole process.
 
Many experienced brewers still brew at least some of their beers with extract. If you have a source for fresh extract and have a solid process you can make great beer with extract.

All grain gives you the freedom to brew about any style of beer you want and a lot more room for tweaking a beer to suit your taste. All grain is also less expensive, and even more so if you buy your base malt by the sack.

The cost of all the extra equipment can be greatly reduced by using the BIAB (Brew in a Bag) method of all grain brewing. Basically, all you need to add for BIAB is a kettle at least twice the size of your batch size and a large fine mesh bag.

Personally, I enjoy the all grain process because it allows me to be more creative in both recipe formulation and process. If you like what you're brewing with extract and don't have a desire to explore the more complex parts of the hobby, there's no reason to change how you brew.
 
You get better control of the process and can get a larger variety of flavors.

With extract you are stuck with a few choices of malt, and relative consistency of fermentability.

With all-grain you have a lot more grains/flavors you can use. You can make worts more or less fermentable. Without adding a ton of sugar, I don't think I could make a good IPA with extract, but with all-grain. I can mash low and get a very fermentable wort. Belgians also need fermentable worts that cannot be achieved with extract.

Also mashing specialty grains will yield more sugars than steeping.

As everyone has said, it is cheaper, but it is extra work. Takes a brew day from 2 hours to 4 to 5 hours. But I think it is worth it.

All-grain doesn't have to be expensive to start. Start with partial mash; just a few lbs of grain, get some 5 gallon paint straining bags from the hardware store and do it on the stove top. Tip - the more grains you use (= more water) the more stable the mash the temps will be.

Great beer can be made from extract. Partial mash or all-grain, adds another dimension to the process and can add more complexity to the final beer.
 
You get better control of the process and can get a larger variety of flavors.

With extract you are stuck with a few choices of malt, and relative consistency of fermentability.

With all-grain you have a lot more grains/flavors you can use. You can make worts more or less fermentable. Without adding a ton of sugar, I don't think I could make a good IPA with extract, but with all-grain. I can mash low and get a very fermentable wort. Belgians also need fermentable worts that cannot be achieved with extract.

Also mashing specialty grains will yield more sugars than steeping.

As everyone has said, it is cheaper, but it is extra work. Takes a brew day from 2 hours to 4 to 5 hours. But I think it is worth it.

All-grain doesn't have to be expensive to start. Start with partial mash; just a few lbs of grain, get some 5 gallon paint straining bags from the hardware store and do it on the stove top. Tip - the more grains you use (= more water) the more stable the mash the temps will be.

Great beer can be made from extract. Partial mash or all-grain, adds another dimension to the process and can add more complexity to the final beer.

It doesn't have to take more time. With extract with steeping grains I steep for 30 minutes. With all grain BIAB and the grains milled finely with my Corona style mill I mash for 30 minutes. I sparge while the wort is coming to a boil so that doesn't add any extra time. Now I get the same timing as with an extract batch. The extra work is milling the grains and cleaning the pot I use to sparge.
 
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as a new brewer I'm wondering what the advantage is to going all grain. I've watched YouTube videos on it and the process is much more complicated (or seems to be) and you need more equipment.

I've done 5 extract brews (two are currently in the fermenter) and have enjoyed the process and the beer. But I don't see the advantage to transitioning.

So what are the advantages?

It doesn't need to be more complicated and the extra equipment needed for BIAB all grain is only a filter bag. I use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag from Home Depot. Less than $5 for a pair. I did buy a Corona mill since I don't have an LHBS with a mill. If you are already brewing extract batches you probably have a 5 gallon pot. If so you can easily try a small batch all grain just by putting a strainer bag in that. Then you will know for yourself what the results may be.
 
It's better, I know it sounds like I'm being a smart a.. but along with a nice controlled fermentation it's just better all around. I know people have said that they've won with extract beers but there are tons of variables.
 
What's better? Eye of the beholder, probably, and all that.

I did three extract brews before switching to all-grain. All had what some refer to as extract twang. It's never clear if twang comes from bad extract or some process-related problem or what, but that disappeared when I went to all-grain.

My son does extract brewing and his brews tend to have that extract twang.

Now, that doesn't mean it has to happen that way. I know a guy who has never brewed anything but extract and his beers are excellent. I've asked to join him for a brew day so I can see what he's doing--I'm sure I can learn something.

**************

There are other reasons for doing all-grain. Others have noted the less expensive cost with all-grain. If I'm doing a normal ale without a huge hop charge, I can brew for around $20 in ingredients. I buy my grain in bulk from RiteBrew; 76 cents per pound for 2-row, 98 cents per pound for Maris Otter. Hops are under $2 an ounce and if you buy by the pound, maybe $1.25 per ounce or so. Yeast is what it is, if liquid, $6.50.

Just did a Cal Common which is in the fermenter. Cost:

8# Maris Otter, $7.84
1.5# Munich, $1.75
1# Crystal 60L $1.25
3 ounces Northern Brewer hops, $4.17
Wyeast 2112, $5.99

By my calculations, that's $21 even. Or about 40 cents per 12-oz glass.

***************

You have a much wider variety of recipes you can brew as well as being able to tweak them. Like just a little more Munich in the recipe above? Add another half pound of grain. Want to go off-curve and do something weird? Do it!

***************

You're right, there's a greater investment in equipment. IMO, to do this well you need a mill (Cereal Killer at around $100 is a good inexpensive alternative), a mash tun (a cooler w/ a BIAB bag will work, call it $60), and maybe a pH meter if you're really into this ($100-120) but it's not absolutely necessary, and quite possibly some ways to store bulk grain.

If you don't buy gain in bulk, you'll pay a lot more for it. I buy my 2-row and Maris Otter in sacks, 50 or 55#. I store it in 5-gallon buckets which run $4-6 including lid. You can use small trash can bags to line the bucket, then tie it off when full. I actually use Gamma Seal lids ($6-7) but they're not necessary. You can get 50 pounds in two buckets.

***************

You can avoid the mash tun if you BIAB. You really need about a 10-gallon kettle to do that, but the bag is circa $30. I switched from using a mash tun to BIAB about 8 batches ago. I shrank the gap in the mill to about .020, and I'm getting the same efficiency as i was before with a coarser crush and use of the mash tun.

***************

All-grain works for me. You have to be a little bit cognizant of water to do that as it will impact the mash as well as the final flavors, but you can get assistance here to begin with. I ended up installing a Reverse Osmosis system to provide me with RO water rather than buying it. Bought it a year ago February, and it's already paid for itself.
 
The two biggest differences are 1) you get total control of the recipe. With extract you don't really know what went into making it. 2) all grain is quite a bit less expensive, how much depending on how much you buy in bulk.

A lesser advantage is more accurate color control. Extracts tend to be dark.

I find all grain to be much more fun to do than extract. I feel cheated that someone else did half the brew when making the extract.
 
You have to very careful going from extract to all grain. In most cases extract brewing is a "gateway drug" and leads to full blown addiction. If anyone says it's cheaper, don't believe them. Your first all grain batch will be ok, but then.... you'll need a march pump, then a fancier kettle, then the mash tun, beer gun for filling bottles, or heaven forbid kegs. Kegs lead to kegerators, then there is the conical fermentor, then the 20 gallon kettle, DIY glycol chillers, then..... You finally wake up and your friends or family are staging an intervention. You are addicted. Then comes along a fancy stainless steel do-dad that you just know you need. So yes, as I place my order with StainlessBrewing, there are draw backs to all grain brewing. Save yourself it's too late for me......
 
There is a freshness to the malt flavor that is difficult to match with extract. This comes from the base malt. Extract is like tomato paste. All grain is like a bushel of summer ripe tomatoes. Sure if you are making a tomato sauce loaded up with onions, garlic, 4 kinds of meat, oregano and half a dozen other herbs from the spice cabinet and a healthy glug of cheap red wine you might not see much difference. But in a simple sauce lightly seasoned designed to showcase the tomatoes the difference is will be clear. I contend same holds true for extract. Imagine a 100% extract beer lightly hopped and fermented clean. Now imagine a 100% two row beer same treatment. Experienced brewers tell me you think these will be indistinguishable.

So pretty soon seeking to achieve at least some of that malt freshness you will start to partial mash. Easy to do BIAB style, just as easy to do with a spaghetti strainer. But once you are messing with partial mashes and experience that freshness factor you will be looking at all grain options. The noisiest crowd on here will push for BIAB and it seems like a good way to go but take some time and consider options. A cooler batch sparge system is also pretty darn easy to do and has its own advantages. For me I wanted a 3 vessel system and after my spaghetti strainer partial mash days and about 75 batches with the cooler batch sparge system finally built one and love it.

The hobby and the beer you make is a journey not a destination. There are lots of things to try along the way no need to hurry to what you think is the final process or perfect recipe, there is always something new around the corner.
 
What's better? Eye of the beholder, probably, and all that.

I did three extract brews before switching to all-grain. All had what some refer to as extract twang. It's never clear if twang comes from bad extract or some process-related problem or what, but that disappeared when I went to all-grain.

My son does extract brewing and his brews tend to have that extract twang.

Now, that doesn't mean it has to happen that way. I know a guy who has never brewed anything but extract and his beers are excellent. I've asked to join him for a brew day so I can see what he's doing--I'm sure I can learn something.

**************

There are other reasons for doing all-grain. Others have noted the less expensive cost with all-grain. If I'm doing a normal ale without a huge hop charge, I can brew for around $20 in ingredients. I buy my grain in bulk from RiteBrew; 76 cents per pound for 2-row, 98 cents per pound for Maris Otter. Hops are under $2 an ounce and if you buy by the pound, maybe $1.25 per ounce or so. Yeast is what it is, if liquid, $6.50.

Just did a Cal Common which is in the fermenter. Cost:

8# Maris Otter, $7.84
1.5# Munich, $1.75
1# Crystal 60L $1.25
3 ounces Northern Brewer hops, $4.17
Wyeast 2112, $5.99

By my calculations, that's $21 even. Or about 40 cents per 12-oz glass.

***************

You have a much wider variety of recipes you can brew as well as being able to tweak them. Like just a little more Munich in the recipe above? Add another half pound of grain. Want to go off-curve and do something weird? Do it!

***************

You're right, there's a greater investment in equipment. IMO, to do this well you need a mill (Cereal Killer at around $100 is a good inexpensive alternative), a mash tun (a cooler w/ a BIAB bag will work, call it $60), and maybe a pH meter if you're really into this ($100-120) but it's not absolutely necessary, and quite possibly some ways to store bulk grain.

If you don't buy gain in bulk, you'll pay a lot more for it. I buy my 2-row and Maris Otter in sacks, 50 or 55#. I store it in 5-gallon buckets which run $4-6 including lid. You can use small trash can bags to line the bucket, then tie it off when full. I actually use Gamma Seal lids ($6-7) but they're not necessary. You can get 50 pounds in two buckets.

***************

You can avoid the mash tun if you BIAB. You really need about a 10-gallon kettle to do that, but the bag is circa $30. I switched from using a mash tun to BIAB about 8 batches ago. I shrank the gap in the mill to about .020, and I'm getting the same efficiency as i was before with a coarser crush and use of the mash tun.

***************

All-grain works for me. You have to be a little bit cognizant of water to do that as it will impact the mash as well as the final flavors, but you can get assistance here to begin with. I ended up installing a Reverse Osmosis system to provide me with RO water rather than buying it. Bought it a year ago February, and it's already paid for itself.

I had very much the same experience switching from Extract to All-grain. That "twang" was present in every single extract Ive done. Completely gone and tasted more professional with All-grain brews.
 
I had very much the same experience switching from Extract to All-grain. That "twang" was present in every single extract Ive done. Completely gone and tasted more professional with All-grain brews.

Your post kind of made a light go on for me. I wonder if the source of extract twang is the water being used.

When most do all-grain, my guess is they're very interested in water composition and getting chlorine out and so on. But with extract, how many, if any, are concerned with the water they are using? The old "if it tastes good you can brew good beer" may be true if the water's good, but what if it's heavily chlorinated?

What if twang is from chlorine, or from being heavily mineralized?

My son had brewed a lot of extract beers, then switched to using RO water. He indicated there was a leap in quality when he did that.

Did you do anything with your water before switching to all-grain? What water did you use, and what was its characteristics?

****************

This makes me want to try an extract brew using only RO water....
 
I like analogies.

Extract is building a house with the large Duplo blocks, all grain is using Lego blocks. You may have a house either way, but the Lego one can have more details, options, and generally be better.
 
I'm still very much an extract noob, but I think you're all onto something with the water being the key factor. My second ever batch was an IPA and I followed the "if your water tasts good..." and used it straight from the tap since we do have good water. The beer was good, but not great. The next IPA I made, I used filtered (granular active carbon and ceramic) water and the beer was dramatically better. To be fair, it was a different recipe - but I won't use unfiltered water ever again.
 
I found that switching to distilled water did help a lot with my extract batches, but:

After brewing a lot of extract batches and then trying all grain, I honestly think that extract has it's own character. I think compared to all grain it has a unique flavor. I have come to like it, especially in beers that aren't pale. I wouldn't call it a twang, but it's different. Some people swear that they can't tell the difference, but I can. I have tried about a 6 different extract brews from 6 different people including my own, they all have that character.

The other thing I've noticed is that my extract batches take longer to taste good. I would say it takes at least 4 weeks of conditioning before they taste good, with all grain they usually start tasting good in about 2 weeks. I'm not sure why. Also, I've never had an all grain batch under attenuate, which has been an occasional issue with my extract batches.
 
Well, I am no expert by any stretch, but the extract brews I made were all overly sweet and had a distinct flavor to them. I guess that is the extract twang...I am not 100% certain what twang tastes like. I started out brewing extract brews, and once the initial excitement of, "Hey, I made that and it tastes like beer!" wore off I wasn't thrilled with my beer. Switched to BIAB and that sweetness, twang, and darker than expected color was gone. Switched back to extract for a bit, and I was again unhappy with the end result. I'm back to BIAB, and I am happy with my beer again.

No change to the water I use BTW.

Now, some people would probably say that there something wrong with my extract brewing process, and they might be right. But for me, there's a noticeable difference in the end product.

And for BIAB, there isn't really much needed. I bought a bigger kettle, and some paint strainer bags.
 
Your post kind of made a light go on for me. I wonder if the source of extract twang is the water being used.

When most do all-grain, my guess is they're very interested in water composition and getting chlorine out and so on. But with extract, how many, if any, are concerned with the water they are using? The old "if it tastes good you can brew good beer" may be true if the water's good, but what if it's heavily chlorinated?

What if twang is from chlorine, or from being heavily mineralized?

My son had brewed a lot of extract beers, then switched to using RO water. He indicated there was a leap in quality when he did that.

Did you do anything with your water before switching to all-grain? What water did you use, and what was its characteristics?

****************

This makes me want to try an extract brew using only RO water....

At first when I switched to all-grain, I made no changes to my water. I used the tap water which i've checked through the cities website for water test results. About the only mineral that seemed to low for my water profile based on their results was calcium. But no, that "twang" taste only existed with my extract brews and did not follow me to all-grain. I believe the "twang" came from leached tannins in my extract brews when I steeped the grains. I carefully measured my temps but I believe the mesin bags that the extract kits came with and how fine crushed the grains were allowed husk to stay in the kettle during the boil. With all-grain, the fact that your mashtun is separate from your kettle and that you rely on lautering until the wort is clean keeps the grain husk out of your boil.

At least thats how I always saw it. I think the "twang" is the unwanted tannins. If I ever did an extract brew again, Id invest in some better mesh bags and still id want to crush my own grain.
 
I think the "twang" is the unwanted tannins. If I ever did an extract brew again, Id invest in some better mesh bags and still id want to crush my own grain.

I don't think this is is. I added a Rotometer to my recirculation line on my mash tun to keep eye on recirc rate and lautering rate. I am surprised to see bits of husk make it through to the kettle even after a 1 hour recirculation. Especially likely to see it when I adjust flow rate but if you watch that glass you see a husk probably several times a minute.

I do think there might be issue with water. The maltster who made the extract already balanced its minerals when he mashed it. If you are adding more minerals either along with or already in your "tastes good" tap water you could be overdoing mineralization.

I still believe it is issue of freshness. Evaporated and concentrated or freeze dried is just not the same as the real thing. Might be convenient for shipping and have a good shelf life but it's just not the same.
 
You have to very careful going from extract to all grain. In most cases extract brewing is a "gateway drug" and leads to full blown addiction. If anyone says it's cheaper, don't believe them. Your first all grain batch will be ok, but then.... you'll need a march pump, then a fancier kettle, then the mash tun, beer gun for filling bottles, or heaven forbid kegs. Kegs lead to kegerators, then there is the conical fermentor, then the 20 gallon kettle, DIY glycol chillers, then..... You finally wake up and your friends or family are staging an intervention. You are addicted. Then comes along a fancy stainless steel do-dad that you just know you need. So yes, as I place my order with StainlessBrewing, there are draw backs to all grain brewing. Save yourself it's too late for me......

Sounds like the voice of experience.

My wife intervened pretty quick - "You ain't getting that". No pumps, no kegs, no kegerator, no stainless conical .......

Don't pity me; I do all grain, buy bulk, brew cheap, probably have 1.000 bottles (full), a decent production line, and about 50 gallons of sour beers in various stages.
 
The difference in the end is more control over the final product. You'll be able to design the beer you want and after a little experience you'll be able to produce consistently superior beer.

The other difference is gear. You get to buy gear! For me half the fun of this hobby is playing with the set up. My buddy is brewing for begyle in Chicago. He came over this week for a party and wants my system for their pilot system.
 
I like the analogy of using cake mix in a box versus baking from scratch. You can make an excellent cake from a box, add flavors, make your own frosting etc, but you will never have control over what was in the base mix of the recipe. All grain gives you more control, but it won't 100% necessarily make your beer better than extract.
I actually started with small batch all grain. If you don't want to go all in on equipment equipment I'd strongly suggest biab. Most of my batches are 3 gallon biab. It just works for me, I can do it all on my kitchen stove top, full volume boils, no extra equipment outside of a bag and I just really enjoy it. That being said I am still doing the occasional extract batch. Time is a big factor now that we have a kid so I'll be being more extract going forward
I'd also say try a Brooklyn Brew Shop kit. They make 1 gallon batches of all grain. It's a pretty good gateway to understanding the process and it makes a pretty good end product.
 
Not sure AG is superior to extract brew. It's all in who makes it

AG takes a different level of commitment in time always and money initially.

Extract takes 2-3 hours, AG takes 5-6 hours.

The payback can come when buying pre-made kits and ingredients. The AG can be less expensive

I think most people can't really tell the difference between a well brewed extract or AG, although they say they can

I know I can't

For what it's worth they're both noble ventures all depends on your time and $$$
 
For clarification when I say extract, I am referring to partial mash where you steep grains and add extract
 
You have to very careful going from extract to all grain. In most cases extract brewing is a "gateway drug" and leads to full blown addiction. If anyone says it's cheaper, don't believe them. Your first all grain batch will be ok, but then.... you'll need a march pump, then a fancier kettle, then the mash tun, beer gun for filling bottles, or heaven forbid kegs. Kegs lead to kegerators, then there is the conical fermentor, then the 20 gallon kettle, DIY glycol chillers, then..... You finally wake up and your friends or family are staging an intervention. You are addicted. Then comes along a fancy stainless steel do-dad that you just know you need. So yes, as I place my order with StainlessBrewing, there are draw backs to all grain brewing. Save yourself it's too late for me......
Hi, I am LSLBrew and it has been 3 days since my last modification. After getting the large cooler and keggle so I could do 10 gallon batches I told myself that I had all that I needed for brewing. That was until the batteries on my thermometer went out in the middle of a brew day. Missing my mash temp was just too much so I installed thermometers on my boil kettle and HLT.

I do like the control that I have with all grain over extract. I think the final product is better, but will only be better if you have your process and temp control in place before you make the change. All else equal, temp control, healthy yeast, full boil will do more for quality increases than going to all grain from extract. My pale ales are better because I can make it ferment out better and get that crispness that I was lacking from my extract batches.
 
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