Topping up an All-grain

[jaymack]

Ok, kind of a dumb question;

When doing extract with grain, I end up with about 3 gallons for fermentation and I top up to 5 gs with water as per the usual instructions.

I've started all-graining and my post boil volume has been just under 3 gs when I was aiming for 5gs.

Besides the obvious fact that I'm not mashing/sparging enough, can I top up an all-grain to 5gs with water the way I would an extract w grain?
Would it effect my abv, my flavour, my overall fermentation?

Just curious.

Cheers,
J

 

[Brooklyn-Brewtality]

depends on your gravity readings.

if your gravity is spot-on at 3 gallons, don't water it down.
if it is too strong, then you can top off.

 

[Yooper]

Would it effect my abv, my flavour, my overall fermentation?

Just curious.

Cheers,
J

Yes. It would "water down" your wort by however many gallons you topped up to. Do you take hydrometer readings? That would be very helpful in this case, because you'd find out if you had say, a 1.050 wort at three gallons, and topped it up to 5 gallons, you'd end up with a 1.030 SG at 5 gallons. That would change the IBU's (bittering especially), the flavor, and the ABV. You'd go from a probably balanced 5.2% ABV beer to a 2.6% ABV watered down version.

Brewing software would be great to use in this instance- you could figure out how much water to add, how to adjust the hops, etc, based on your findings.

 

[Bobby_M]

The worst part of the idea is the efficiency (or lack thereof). Consider a top up dilution of 100% where you boil down to 2.5 gallons then add another 2.5 to reach 5. If you want a 1.050 finished, you need to start with 1.10 which would take a LOT of grain.

You didn't mention, but is the reason behind doing this to get by with a smaller kettle? Ideally you'll want to collect about 6.5 gallons proboil. Which really requires an 8 gallon pot minimum.

 

[jaymack]

Excellent responses as always. Thanks folks.

Bobby_M - I only ask because I did an extract w grain yesterday for the first time in a few months (since I started all-grain). As I was topping up my Carboy for fermnetaion, this idea occured to me.

I have a 10 gallon keg that I've mod'd so I have the head space to handle the boil.

As far as not getting enough out of my mash, I think I'm always worried about adding too much water to a sparge

 

[Yooper]

Excellent responses as always. Thanks folks.

Bobby_M - I only ask because I did an extract w grain yesterday for the first time in a few months (since I started all-grain). As I was topping up my Carboy for fermnetaion, this idea occured to me.

I have a 10 gallon keg that I've mod'd so I have the head space to handle the boil.

As far as not getting enough out of my mash, I think I'm always worried about adding too much water to a sparge

Well, you can use up to .5 gallons of water per pound of grain in sparging, before you have to really worry about extracting tannins. It'd be hard to use too much water, especially if you have like 12 pounds of grain!

 

[Edcculus]

If you get beersmith, it will tell you exactly how much water to sparge with. You can specify your mashing technique and mash tun to get the volumes spot on.

You will know if you sparge with too much water. Even if you do, you can always boil down to desired volumes.

 

[ajf]

I would think that if you are 40% short on your volume, then you must be getting very low efficiency. If you have used sufficient grain to achieve the required OG after topping up, then topping up is the right thing to do, but if this results in a lower gravity than you were aiming for, then you should accept a lower volume. Whichever you do, this is an expensive way of brewing, and sparging more would be more cost effective. If you haven't already done so, you should check the gravity of the runnings at the end of the sparge. If the gravity of these runnings is > 1.010, then you can safely use more sparge water which will increase your efficiency, and will require a reduction in the grain bill if you were achieving the required OG after topping off.

-a.

 

[Bobby_M]

The bottom line is, you need to collect at least 1.5 gallons over your finished batch size to account for boiloff. It's just the way all grain is done if you want to have a reasonable yield.

 

[CHansen6]

Along these lines, I had a question about something I had been doing with decent results as of late. I have a supposedly 30 qt turkey fryer, but can only comfortably fit around 6 gallons in. I've been making mostly german style beers for the summer, so there has been a lot of pilsner malt. During the 90 minute boil, I've been losing quite a bit, down to about 4 gallons and my efficiencies were rather low due to the smaller amount of sparging being done.

I had been collecting another gallon or so, and adding it in right after the bittering hops (boiled for 60 min) tried to boil over my wort. I do this because when I add the additional wort, I get a mini-hot break and it is sometimes enough to try to boil it over too. I figure one battle at a time.

Would this have any rammifications? I had worried about some residual DMS from the later wort addition, but I have never tasted a bit of it in my beers.

 

[MN_Jay]

I was thinking the same thing, with the exact same equipment as you. (30 qt) I was going to boil the extra gallon on the bbq grill side burner right next to the boiling wort kettle and then add it as it boils off the main kettle. If the extra gallon is already at boiling temperature then it wouldn't interupt the main boil at all.

 

[Sumo]

I have a 5 gal pot and a 3 gal pot. I boil 4 gals in the big one, and 2.5 in the other. I only hop the larger pot. I did this per a recommendation on another thread. It worked out well. I just mixed the 2 in the fermentor when I was done with the boil. I do recommend staggering it by 20 minutes so you have ample time to chill the wort down. (I only have one chiller.) I hit my OG spot on.

 

[Bobby_M]

There's nothing wrong with boiling a smaller portion of your collected wort in its own pot for the entire boil. Just dump it back into the main wort right before you chill.

 

[MN_Jay]

Here's a question, if you don't add hops to the smaller batch, is there any reason to boil it any longer than 10 minutes or so to sanitize?

 

[Bobby_M]

To boil down the gravity just like the main bulk wort mostly. If you have any pils malt in there, it would be to drive off DMS also.

 

[MN_Jay]

Gotcha, thanks.

 

[EvilTOJ]

When I did the 999 barleywine recipe, I had my regular turkey fryer going, along with two five gallon pots on the stove as well.

I wanted that sugar, dammit!

 

[JDFlow]

What if you were planning on topping up on purpose? Basically, what if you mashed enough grains for a 5 gallon batch and just collected around 3 gallons of wort, then would it be ok to top up considering your OG would be around 1.07-1.08 due to the sugar concentration?