Too young to brew??

[Yuri_Rage]

Your French and Indian War group also still shoot muzzle loading guns with black powder. It's 2008.










Just playin'...I bet you guys have a lot of fun with that stuff.

Any chance of a "shoot" with the "shooting implements?" Can't hurt to ask, right?

 

[gruntingfrog]

When I was a teenager, the one thing that I wanted more than anything was to be treated like an adult. It's part of the coming of age process. In most European countries, since alcohol consumption is not considered "an adult thing" and kids begin drinking moderate amounts of alcohol by 13 - 14, the incidents of binge drinking among 16 - 20 year olds is lower. It's just not that big of a deal when you can easily drink whenever you want. No need to prove that you're an adult by drinking a bunch of alcohol.

While it's legal in most U.S. states for a parent to give their children alcohol at any age (as long as the amount doesn't border on harm or abuse), it's socially frowned upon. This isn't the case in most European countries. There, it's not abnormal to see a ten year old having half a glass of wine with dinner.

That being said, we have to follow the laws of our land. If you don't agree with the law, work through the proper processes to change it.

It can be done.

 

[Brewmeister Jeff]

The true reason for that is she being underage cannot legally sell you beer. However, what retail establishment is going to deny a sale because she isnt old enough to sell the beer.

I agree with Yuri the law is there plain and simple. Regardless of the sense it makes it is usually best to follow them.

That being said, I definitely do not agree with all the laws that this land has put in place. I also agree that if you are old enough to pick up a rifle and fight for this country you should damn well have the right to have a beer or 6 or 12 for that matter. I spent 4 years in the Corps and I was able to drink, it wasn't until the buricrats (sp) got a crazy notion in their head that maybe the rules should apply straight across the board. I say BS to that, let those college hippie protesters pick up a rifle and stand a post across from some Iraqi guy who hates us just as much as we dislike them.

 

[Brewmeister Jeff]

My French and Indian War re-enacting group goes by "The Buffalo Theory". Most here have probably heard this but, for those who don't know...

Your brain cells are like a heard of buffalo, beer is the equivalent of say, lions or hyenas... the predator isn't going for the healthy buffalo... they're going for the weak, sickly buffalo.

This, is how beer makes us smarter... by weeding out the week brain cells.



But seriously, everything in moderation. True, binge drinking will be detrimental to a still-forming nervous system, however it is also true that there are benefits to say, drinking one glass of red wine... its rich in antioxidants and promotes good cholesterol.

cheers for the good discussion!

- Beautiful and she's Smart too - Jester you are one lucky SOB!

 

[Kai]

+1 Yuri.

With your parents: no age.
Natural drinks (beer, wine, cider): 16
Distilled alcohol: 18

For reference, I was eighteen when I started brewing and posting. I'd been able to buy beer in Quebec for 11 months, but I wasn't allowed to buy it where I lived.

It's not that underaged kids always make asses of themselves, it's just that the underaged kids you notice are, coincidentally, the ones who are also jackasses.

 

[Emanresu]

My theory is that "If you can brew it, you can drink it". It takes a lot of understanding for someone to brew beer and to make it taste good. People also appreciate their work because they dedicate 6-7 hours of the day to brew it and then have to wait at least another month to drink it. To me, they are actually learning something that could benefit them in the future (that is if they are looking to be a brewer!)

 

[enohcs]

If you're old enough to die for your country you're sure as s#it old enough to kick back and enjoy a few.
My daughter is a year old. I'll gladly teach her how to brew when she's a toddler if she wants to learn. I don't think I'll let her have a glass until she's somewhere in her teens though just because of developmental reasons.
Why not allow your kids to grow up exposed to alcohol? it's better they know and respect it in the safety of their own home with responsible adults rather than learning with other 18 year olds who too are experimenting with alcohol for the first time. I think we all know what that leads to.

 

[newell456]

Even if a minor is theoretically old enough to homebrew, most states, mine included, make it a crime for a person over 21 to possess alcohol, so any distinction is moot. Once the wort becomes alcohol the minor cannot possess it.

And on the off-topic discussion of changing drinking ages for military personel or anyone, the federal government got all states to agree to go with 21 or those states that did not would lose millions in federal highway funding. So, if you have a few state congress persons or senators sponsoring a bill at your state legislature, it is little more than a publicity stunt because any lowering of the drinking age means a loss of federal highway funds for that state. I'm not saying I agree with it, but any hypothetical lowering of the drinking age, for anyone is simply not going to happen.

 

[z987k]

since when is a minor under 21? I know the law, but I hate that word used for people of the ages 18,19 and 20. Sure as hell are not minors in any other aspect. If society wants to remove all responsibility until 21 then that's what they should do. Until then let's treat em like they're adults the day they turn 18.

 

[BuffaloSabresBrewer]

since when is a minor under 21? I know the law, but I hate that word used for people of the ages 18,19 and 20. Sure as hell are not minors in any other aspect. If society wants to remove all responsibility until 21 then that's what they should do. Until then let's treat em like they're adults the day they turn 18.

Indeed.

 

[newell456]

since when is a minor under 21? I know the law, but I hate that word used for people of the ages 18,19 and 20. Sure as hell are not minors in any other aspect. If society wants to remove all responsibility until 21 then that's what they should do. Until then let's treat em like they're adults the day they turn 18.

In my state, a person who is 20 is a "minor" under the "minor in possession" of alcohol statute. I understand what you are saying, but as far as possession of alcohol, the 18-20 yr old is a minor. I did not write the statute.


Michigan Liquor Control Act MCLS § 436.1109 "(3) 'Minor' means a person less than 21 years of age."

 

[devaspawn]

You are only a minor under the age of 21 when it comes to drinking in this country. You may join the military, vote, smoke cigarettes, enter into legal and binding contracts, purchase and own guns, and a whole slew of other things at the age of 18. It is a way for the gov't to tell the people that they are looking out for you. It's a hot-button topic that can be twisted so as to scare parents and to make them grateful for gov't control.

Guns used to be commonly used by preteens in this country. Everyone in a frontier family was trained on how to use a rifle from the time they could physically hold it. Preventative fear has been one of the biggest enemies to the culture of this country. The more you deny something the more the people want it.

 

[z987k]

Indeed.


View attachment 4917

best post yet today. lol.

 

[SRFeldman79]

its not a surprise, or shouldnt be, that the laws regarding alcohol in this country are a little bizarre. We did pass that stupid amendment known as Prohibition...

with all the pseudo-legal advice on this thread, this site is going to need a "we are not lawyers and none of the information on the following pages are to be construed as legal advice" warning.

 

[DeathBrewer]

damn...i'm came in to late. it's all been said.

18 - join military, vote, smoke, get married, be tried as an adult...blah blah blah
21 - drink, wtf?

i'm going to send my kids to class with small beers in their lunches. j/k...i'm not having kids.

 

[SRFeldman79]

you can be tried as an adult at younger than 18.
and usually you can get married earlier than 18 with parental consent.

 

[devaspawn]

you can be tried as an adult at younger than 18.
and usually you can get married earlier than 18 with parental consent.

My point was that you can do these things of your own volition at 18...

 

[MikeFlynn74]

I think voting is much more dangerous than drinking

 

[Rockybottom]

FYI,
In Idaho a "minor" can have alcoholic beverages, as long as they are not in public and are with a parent. So I "minor" can drink at their house with the parent and be just fine, until they go out in public later. Then it is the fault of the parent.

Also I remember when the drinking age was 18. My older sister was "grandfathered" in Idaho when Idaho changed to 21. 1985 I believe.

Wyoming held out the longest until to much pressure for govt. road monies pressured them to change to 21.

 

[Don]

My 7 year old neighbor boy love to come over and help me on brew day.
In fact he knocks on my door almost every Saturday to see if I'm brewing.

Does that mean I'm contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

(Of course his dad is coming into my garage and refilling his mug anytime I leave the door open.)

Don
I made 100 post
time to brew (need to get the kid over here so he can get my grains milled)

 

[Nurmey]

Does that mean I'm contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

I would look at it as an apprenticeship program.
Kids are always curious about how things are made. He will forever have great memories will be the next generation of craft brewers. See, it's more of a public service than contributing to delinquency thing.

 

[sonetlumiere85]

The really interesting thing in all of this is how the drinking law encourages kids to come up on cheap, ****ty, mass-produced piss water. I think the real issue at stake here is some kind of conspiracy perpetuated by BMC to keep control of the under-21 market. Look at the zeal with which college kids consume mass quantities of Natural Light, Natural Ice, Coors Light, Keystone Light, Pabst Blue Ribbon, Schlitz, and MGD. It's ****ing disgusting. Now imagine if BMC didn't have that segment of the market to cater to, due to people drinking that crap when they're under 18 and realizing how gross it is. When they do turn 18, they'll buy interesting beer - Sierra Nevada, Rogue, Goose Island - and everyone will benefit. Beer styles will flourish! Belgian beers will have national distribution! Imagine the possibilities. It's a conspiracy, I tell ya

 

[Tonedef131]

I made two batches of Mr. Beer when I was 17 with my younger brother. When it was done - he, a friend and I "went to the saloon!"

We got wasted and we managed to boil it while my parents were out and ferment it under the stairs in the basement. it was :rockin:

This is the best anything ever. I will have to "accidentally" leave a Mr Beer sitting around when I leave my teenagers home alone and then pretend I don't know it's fermenting in their closet.

 

[newell456]

My 7 year old neighbor boy love to come over and help me on brew day.
In fact he knocks on my door almost every Saturday to see if I'm brewing.

Does that mean I'm contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

(Of course his dad is coming into my garage and refilling his mug anytime I leave the door open.)

Don
I made 100 post
time to brew (need to get the kid over here so he can get my grains milled)

Homebrewing with a minor is not unlawful in my state, but if a minor is homebrewing for himself, I think he is breaking the law. In Michigan, like most states, the minor in possession statute makes it illegal for a minor to posess "or attempt to posses" alcohol. So if a minor buys the equipment or makes the brew himself, he is attempting to possess alcohol. I make this point because I have heard a few LHBS owners say that it's not illegal for a minor to homebrew, and that is an oversimplification. I have not found any statutes that say it's illegal for a minor to homebrew, but I would never counsel an owner of a homebrew supply to knowlingly sell homebrew equipment and supplies to a minor because if the owner is knowingly aiding a minor in possessing or attempting to possess alcohol, that could be construed as contributing to the delinquency of a minor. Now I'm not saying that the minor or the brew shop owner should be prosecuted, just that it's not something I would advise because I am an attorney, and I am ethically bound to never advise someone to break the law or how to break the law.

If the 7 year old is helping out with your brew session, he is neither possessing nor attempting to possess alcohol.

 

[Professor Frink]

Does that mean I'm contributing to the delinquency of a minor?

Quite the opposite I think. Granted, he's 7 years old, but I think that giving someone to see the process allows them to truly appreciate and respect beer. That's the difference between enjoying a few great craft beers and pounding down a 12'er of Keystone Light.

 

[adm5072]

So should a LHBS be required to card its patrons in order to prevent attempted possession of alcohol. I don't think they do because I have never been carded but has anyone ever heard of this.

 

[the_bird]

So should a LHBS be required to card its patrons in order to prevent attempted possession of alcohol. I don't think they do because I have never been carded but has anyone ever heard of this.

One of the places in NH has a note up on their website about not allowing those who are under 21 to buy their products. I know my local place doesn't; I'm 32, but I look 18 and get carded everywhere EXCEPT the homebrew shop!

 

[adm5072]

One of the places in NH has a note up on their website about not allowing those who are under 21 to buy their products. I know my local place doesn't; I'm 32, but I look 18 and get carded everywhere EXCEPT the homebrew shop!

Haha, I guess there are pros and cons for drinking from the fountain of youth. With that said I guess Male pattern baldness has its pros too.

 

[TrojanMan]

Regarding "brewing with a minor," note that it is legal in every state for a parent/guardian to serve their child alcohol inside their own home.

e.g. At holiday/family dinnertime, junior gets a taste of the toasting beverage of choice


Since you're next door, that's not exactly inside the home but given that the parent(s?) consent, I don't forsee any problems. Besides, since he's under your supervision and not directly consuming the beverage in question, I'd say it's no different than if you were teaching him how to cook with alcohol - say, duck a l'orange. Furthermore, if he's just helping you make wort (which isn't beer - yet), I don't see how any law regarding alcoholic beverages applies at all. At the very least, make sure that you are the one who pitches the yeast. That way, the only thing your "assistant" has ever done is make glorified sugar-water.



I don't agree with restrictions on alcoholic beverages. It's been an integral and essential part of human civilization for the entirety of recorded history and I don't understand how in the last 50 years we can suddenly decide that you shouldn't drink unless you're 21. There's no social, behavioral, psychological or medical reason for that (or any) such restriction.

Don't get me wrong, there is certainly compelling evidence that one shouldn't abuse alcohol and certainly responsible consumption rates vary with body weight (ergo, in growing children, age) but still, there's no reason to bar consumption completely.

Again, children should be allowed to partake in the Thanksgiving Day toast, consumption at religious ceremonies, etc. and the law makes this provision but still, considering that many children in modern culture leave the home upon graduating high school (appx. 18 years of age), it's silly to legally extend parental supervision requirements to those people who are, for most respects, otherwise independent.


Sadly, the neo-prohibitionists (such as the usurpers of modern-day MADD) don't see it this way and continue to misinform public opinion regarding a substance that is still to this day highly valuable to human life.

I say, all the more reason to bring the next generation up right!

 

[newell456]

Regarding "brewing with a minor," note that it is legal in every state for a parent/guardian to serve their child alcohol inside their own home.

:

That exception does not apply in every state. Michigan, like many, many states has no such exception for at home consumption. Most states have an exception for sacramental wine used during a religious service, but many do not have any exception to prohibit prosecution of a minor because he/she consumed with parental consent or at home. As I said in an earlier post, I don't see how a minor helping you with a brew session could arguably be illegal, regardless of who pitches the yeast becuase the minor would not be possessing or attempting to possess alcohol. If a minor buys brew equipment or brews by himself, it's arguably an attempt to possess alcohol. I certainly would not advise a LHBS owner to knowingly sell any equipment or certain supplies to a minor, nor would I sell any brew equipment through craigslist to children, but if the person looks of age and the owner doesn't card, it's not exactly like selling alcohol to a minor. My state, and most likely all of them, make it illegal to knowingly sell alcohol to a minor or to sell to a minor without maiking diligent inquiry to verify age. MCL 436.1701. No such requirement applies to homebrew "stuff" but I wouldn't take that as carte blanche to sell stuff that obviously is used to make beer to a couple of 14 year olds. That would be asking for trouble. I realize that this invites the what-if game, but the point is that if a LHBS actually does something to fall under the radar of law enforcement (or you sell homebrew equipment through CL or at a garage sale to kids that clearly look like kids,) good luck convincing a judge that he thought they wanted to make 40 gallons of beef and barley soup and a loaf of bread.