Too much forum reading has this NOOB scared

[gtnutz]

First of let me say hi, and thanks for all the good reading while I navigate this new hobby.

So the topic of the day for me currently is fermentation and if a secondary is needed. I’ve currently brewed 4 batches and the results are as follows.

1st batch (Amber Ale): was just not good period. From the minute I turned the stove on till the minute I placed it in the bottle there were problems. But I was able to learn a lot and better prepare myself for the second batch.

2nd batch (Hoppy Pale Ale): was by my standards good and drinkable but there were a couple hang ups along the way. But nothing as bad as batch number 1, and I would consider it a success as even the wife said it was good.

3rd batch (Dark Hefeweissbier clone): Why why why did I listen to the person at my LHBS? I went in looking for a nice American Hefeweizen and somehow walked out with this. While the process for this one was near perfect and I was able followed the direction set by the LHBS. When it was time to taste I was sure that I had done something wrong as it was nothing like I was expecting or liked. The following day I took a trip to the local New Seasons to buy a Dark Weihenstephaner and fortunately or unfortunately to my untrained eye and taste I was unable to really tell the difference (wife did not like this one at all and asked what I did wrong). While I was secretly hopping that it was operator error I found that I it was as it should be. Now I have 5 gallons of this nice dark German Hef.

4th batch (Pacific Coast Golden Ale): Currently still in the secondary……. so far its been in the primary for 7 days and now in the secondary for 7 days and I don’t know what to do now. According to the LHBS instructions I should be good to bottle or keg just as I did for batch 2 and 3.

So this bring me to my panic point I’ve been reading a lot about fermentation time and if a secondary is even needed. My local brew shop made the whole process relatively simple
1) Cook everything up and place in primary for 7 days (or sooner “if your bubbles stop”)
2) Place in secondary for 7-14 days depending on how everything settles out
3) Place in bottles for 3-4 week then place in frige and drink after a day or so
a. Or place in keg at 30psi wait two days and drink (not at 30psi)

I think I like the idea of leaving everything in the fermentation bucket for 1-21 days and then going right into my keg or bottles but I'm afraid that it will be like starting over as I don't have anything to judge on. First batch went down the drain, second batch was hoppy so hard to tell if there were any off flavors third batch I just don't like but from my cheap taste test it seems to be ok and the fourth batch has me worried that I should have prolonged the fermentation process……………….

I fully understand that time is on my side, any recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

 

[Revvy]

...a lot of us advocate and do leave our beers in primary for a month...And there's all those citations that I and others have put on here.

Your homebrew shop is giving you bad info, especially about counting bubbles and moving the beer after a week, and NOTHING about using a hydromter....

...You just have to try it or not try it.. And see what works for you.

You really just have to try it for yourself and see if you think your beer tastes better that way like most of us do..or not.

 

[rjsnau]

RDWHAHB.

It is really not that big of a deal. When I started I would only about 7 days in the primary. Basically once the gravity was steady for 3 days I would bottle. This was at the directions of the LHBS. It was of course really green when I opened it a week later but it still mellowed out and was quite good. Of course they have gotten better as I aged them more.

My point is, it is not that big of a deal no matter what. Keep experimenting and find what you like. Also, fermenting temps are very important too because if you are fermenting in the right range, usually there are not as many off flavors created that need to be conditioned out with time. FWIW, I do 14-30 days in primary, no secondary, keg it and let it card up for a week or two. I have won ribbons on 3 out of 4 beers entered in competitions this way so it works for me.

 

[GASoline71]

Find/buy/borrow/steal a hydrometer and learn how to use it.

It's the only way you can tell when your beer is "done"

Gary

 

[unionrdr]

1) it def needs way more than 7 days to finish fermenting to Fg. The initial,vigorous fermentation will be done in a few days. Then bubbling slows down or stops as it very slowly ferments down to FG.
2) Forget secondary unless you're racking onto something or bulk aging a big beer. Just another step that isn't need to get clear beer.
3) Condition bottled beer at 70F for 3-5 weeks. 3 weeks minimum for decent carbobation. But 4-5 weeks is def better. Fridge time of at least 1 week. Getting the co2 in the head space into solution isn't a quick process. 2 weeks is even better for thicker head & longer lasting carbonation. Patience is key in the brewing game.

 

[gtnutz]

Also, fermenting temps are very important too because if you are fermenting in the right range, usually there are not as many off flavors created that need to be conditioned out with time. FWIW, I do 14-30 days in primary, no secondary, keg it and let it card up for a week or two. I have won ribbons on 3 out of 4 beers entered in competitions this way so it works for me.

So far this has been my only true standard as I keep the house cool and the current location of my fermentation bucket keeps right at 64 degrees. I just purchase kegging gear and will try that out next.

You say that you carb it for a week or two, is this at 5psi-8psi or at 30psi. My LHBS says to place in the keg at 30psi in the frige for two days and then drop to 5psi and drink. Their stance was that in 16-21 days I could be drinking beer however from all the info here I'm finding that not so much of what I've been told is the best advice.

 

[Raenon]

You want us to hold a gun to your head for a month so you can't rack???

I think more new brewers would make better beer if someone did this. Nearly all the mistakes I see by new brewers are the result of impatience.
Even the silly mistakes (like bottling on top of sanitizer) seem to be done almost exclusively by otherwised experienced brewers who just make, as I said, a silly mistake. Perhaps too much relaxation, and too much homebrew :cross:

Newbies are so hung up on the step-by-step instructions, they typically do everything right.. except when those step-by-step instructions have led them astray, into believing that beer is fast.

Far be it for me to argue with the veterans around here, I'm not sure that I'd say that a month in the primary is necessarily THE rule of thumb, but 7 days is just plain too short. Yes, most of the fermentation is done, but you still need that big population of yeast to finish cleaning up after themselves and drop to the bottom. If you rack too fast, you either end up leaving them in solution (which means you'll just have a full colony in your secondary), or worse, you won't have enough yeast left to finish cleaning up the off flavors created from the early, stinky, fermentation.

I've been lucky so far, my first experiences have all been good (except losing a quarter of my stout when the fermenter got knocked over...), but my quickest beer was 2 weeks in the primary, 2 weeks in bottle, and even doing an all extract batch, I was missing that hydrometer. It was my first purchase from my LHBS, and I wouldn't brew without one now.

 

[ScoRas]

Man, I just started this hobby, and anything involved in brewing is the least scary thing in life

Driving in MA, watching the news, and having a crack house down the street that gets raided weekly is scary!

 

[rifraf]

Their stance was that in 16-21 days I could be drinking beer however from all the info here I'm finding that not so much of what I've been told is the best advice.

Yeah, you can drink beer. But you'll drink better beer with patience. With my first batch I did 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in bottles. I rationalized to myself that being impatient was ok on batch 1 and I'd just continue to extend times as I got my pipeline going.

Boy do I wish I'd waited. I certainly made beer, but it isn't clear and definitely had some weird flavors at first. Now, a total of 6.5 weeks in the bottle, the beer is only getting better but I'm almost out! There is a 6 pack in the basement that says "Do Not Open 5/15/12".

 

[BierMuncher]

2 - 3 weeks in a primary vessel or until your gravity has reached its final "resting place" for 4-5 days.

A week or so in a secondary clearing vessel.

Bottle at 70 degrees for 21 days...no cooler, no shorter.

Keg at 30PSI for 36 hours (no shaking) then reduce to serving pressure.

This works for me just fine.

 

[gtnutz]

Yeah, you can drink beer. But you'll drink better beer with patience. With my first batch I did 2 weeks in primary and 3 weeks in bottles. I rationalized to myself that being impatient was ok on batch 1 and I'd just continue to extend times as I got my pipeline going.

I'm all for patience as a good friend once told me "good things come to those who wait"

Sadly I found this forum just recently (after batch 4 was in the fermentation bucket) before now / the last 1-2 weeks I've only had the 2-3 page instructions from my LHBS.

Live and learn and learn from others...

Time to hit the brew shop and pick up the next batch or batches.

 

[rv9aguy]

Seriously, listen to these guys ^. It's just beer, and it's supposed to be fun.

Using words like panic and scared means you've over thought it all, which is so easy to do with all the arguments and "expert" opinions on the interwebs and in local shops and such getting in the way.

Four weeks in primary. Bottle it. Wait three weeks (if you can) and enjoy.

When my temperature control wasn't perfect, I still had great beer. When I went a little too long or too short in primary... yep, great beer. When my hydrometer broke and I couldn't take a reading? Guess what, it didn't matter since by four weeks it was fermented out anyway and.... great beer!

Relax and have fun.

 

[Raenon]

So far this has been my only true standard as I keep the house cool and the current location of my fermentation bucket keeps right at 64 degrees. I just purchase kegging gear and will try that out next.

You say that you carb it for a week or two, is this at 5psi-8psi or at 30psi. My LHBS says to place in the keg at 30psi in the frige for two days and then drop to 5psi and drink. Their stance was that in 16-21 days I could be drinking beer however from all the info here I'm finding that not so much of what I've been told is the best advice.

There is a big sticky thread in the Bottling/Kegging forum that properly describes the pros and cons of the different methods, but prevailing wisdom seems to be:

Burst it and drink: Jumping to 30 PSI for 1-2 days will work, but you are likely to end up somewhat over or under carbed. Anything else you do to get the carbonation in faster during this time like rocking it will just make your problems worse. Plus, drinking immediately means you haven't conditioned it, unless you let it sit for several weeks in the secondary already.
All of it can be fixed later, but without experience, correcting it is likely to take longer than the patient method anyway.

Low and slow: Set it at 10-12 PSI, at refrigerated serving temps, and leave it there for 2-3 weeks, longer if you can. Don't touch it, don't fool with it. Within 3 weeks it'll be nearly perfectly carbed (though you might want to check the charts for what style of beer you're doing, figure out your goal "volumes of CO2", and more closely fine tune that serving temp and the _exact_ psi to set it, 10-12 is still a bit of range). This also gives it time to condition, albeit cold. More reason for a longer primary to get most of that out of the way.

Most people will also recommend you serve at the same pressure you maintain it at- so serving at that 10-12, so you don't need to change your pressure between "serving" and "maintenance" (between drinking sessions, left at 5psi, you'll lose carbonation overtime as the beer tries to equal)
You can serve at the higher pressure simply by using longer hoses to make up the difference. 10 feet, again, seems to be prevailing wisdom, whereas you were quite likely sold 5-6 foot long serving hoses if they're recommending serving pressure of 5psi. That'll mean a lot more fiddling with your regulator than if you just used longer hoses to balance it out.

 

[TTB-J]

Here's my recommendation, leave your next batch in the primary for longer - probably 2-3 weeks. Take a gravity reading at 2 weeks, if it doesn't change after a few days, you can bottle. Don't secondary, it's a waste of time and energy. I am basing that off of a few years experience and a lot of really tasty brews using that method.

 

[rifraf]

I'm all for patience as a good friend once tole me "good things come to those who wait"

Sadly I found this forum just recently (after batch 4 was in the fermentation bucket) before now / the last 1-2 weeks I've only had the 2-3 page instructions from my LHBS.

Live and learn and learn from others...

My first homebrew shipment was backordered because of Christmas so while I waited I scoured the internet and luckily stumbled on this place. At the end of the day, beer was made and beer will continue to be made. Hopefully each batch better than the last!

 

[stratslinger]

So far this has been my only true standard as I keep the house cool and the current location of my fermentation bucket keeps right at 64 degrees. I just purchase kegging gear and will try that out next.

You say that you carb it for a week or two, is this at 5psi-8psi or at 30psi. My LHBS says to place in the keg at 30psi in the frige for two days and then drop to 5psi and drink. Their stance was that in 16-21 days I could be drinking beer however from all the info here I'm finding that not so much of what I've been told is the best advice.

Couple things here:

First off - your only true standard? Not quite as good as you might think it is. As you'll eventually read, fermentation is an exothermic process. That means it creates heat. So the room may be 64 degrees, but during fermentation, that fermenter is 5-10 degrees warmer than the room it's in. Some ale yeasts don't mind this so much, some will create fruity esters (notice any banannas in your beers yet?), some will generate fusel alcohols that will give you headaches (though those usually take significantly higher temperatures than that!).

As to the timeframes - a lot depends on the beer. Yes, some very good beers can go grain (or extract) to glass in 16-21 days (sometimes less). But generally, some decent beer can be drinkable in that timeframe, though it will typically be considerably better if you give it more time.

Many LHBS's are in business to sell ingredient kits, and that's about it. The faster they can get you to turn around the kits you buy from them, the more they can get you to buy from them. They don't necessarily see it in their best interest to help you make the best beer you can, they see it in their best interest to help you make the fastest beer you can. This is why a really good LHBS is super valuable! Whoops, where'd that soapbox come from?

Also, do a little searching around here for kegging pressures. There are several references to tables about balancing keg systems - there's a really simple table that tells you, based on what temperature you want to serve at, how long your beer lines should be and what pressure you should serve at. This info is pretty important - if you don't have it set relatively close, you'll fight with foamy pours. It's pretty typical for people to serve around 40 degrees F, with 8-10F lines, at 10-12PSI.

 

[david_42]

One thing you might consider is to make one beer until you are really happy with the results. The other is to always try a style from a commercial brewer before committing to a whole batch. Once you settle on 3-4 preferred styles, hone them until every batch is great. Then start exploring more styles.

Homebrewing has evolved a great deal in the ten years I've been brewing and this forum has been instrumental in getting even the 'names' to reconsider what is/are the best method(s). Long primaries and skipping the secondary is just one aspect. You will still see people posting bad information and swearing it's the TRUTH, even if it contradicts the manufacturer's directions. Not much can be done about it on such a big forum.

 

[gtnutz]

Thanks for all the info and recommendations.

While I might have used strong words in my OP I am very much enjoying myself and the process. All I can think about is how to make it better and what can be done the next time to improve the process.

On a side note I do have a hydrometer but the LHBS just said to use if to tell the alcohol %.

Also in the last two weeks I've purchased a second secondary to help in the process and am even thinking that a second fermentation bucket is needed.

All said in done with the brewing kit and the kegging gear so far a very fun and relatively cheap Hobie that leaves me wanting more.:rockin:

 

[unionrdr]

Use the hydrometer after you aerate/mix the wort & top off well to get an OG (Original Gravity) reading. Then pitch the yeast. After two weeks,take a 1st FG (Final Gravity) reading to see how close to done it is by instruction OG/FG ranges. If it's close,take another FG reading. If the numbers match,you can let it sit another 3-7 days to settle out clear or slightly misty. If they don't match,wait a few days & test it again.

 

[Merleti]

I'm a newbie and feel your pain. No matter how perfect you make a beer recipe you can't expect it to taste exactly like you want. Make this fun. Take your wife out on a drinking taste test and find the flavors you like. It may take 100 different types of beer so plan on several outings even bringing some home. This way you get a feel for what you like and what you both like. It also kills time so your beer can mature.

ScoRas
"Driving in MA, watching the news, and having a crack house down the street that gets raided weekly is scary"

Give them a homebrew and you may soon find a brewery down the street.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

When you brew, take good notes on what you did. If you screw up and forget to add the munich steeping grains (yup) note it. If you tear the grain bag and end up steeping in SWMBO's panty hose, note it. You may like it better that way. Most traditional recipies were invented because someone forgot something, substituted for something they didn't have or otherwise modified the originally intended recipies. When you taste your beer, make a point of noting your taste impressions after 4,6,and 8 weeks in the bottle. It will help you understand what time does to your brews. One thing I have done from the beginning is fill in a brew chart. Left column is the information from the recipie, and the calculated OG, FG and IBU. The right column is the actuals based on the readings I take on brew day. Even the kits. Now when I want to recreate the Brewer's best smoked porter kit I brewed 10 months ago I can go down to the LHBS and pick up the ingredients I need.

 

[gtnutz]

When you brew, take good notes on what you did.

So very true I made sure to do this with the first batch and it helped so much when I went to brew the next. Even brewing batches 3-4 I would find myself check back over my notes to compare times and technique.

It is very addicting and I find myself wanting to brew every weekend until I can find the perfect mix and rhythm to my madness

 

[grimzella]

more great info.. i need it.

 

[Trokair]

I roamed the forum for about 3 weeks before I actually brewed my first batch. There are a ton of little procedure things that I learned from actually doing the batch that are specific to my setup. I think the biggest thing for any first time brewer is to remember how hard it is to screw up a regular ale. Fermentation temps are around room temperature and even if you think you forgot to santize something many people have racked beer from under an infection and reported that it was great. Just have patience and enjoy.