Today’s additives

[Broothru]

I didn’t Find it in small scale. I ended up with half a kilo. For this batch I dosed 1ml. I dont typically use malted oats, so no hulls.

im not saying anybody needs this, I just wanted to play with it

Yeah, it looks like the type of thing I like to experiment with, like amyloglucosidase. I still have about 998 ml of a 1 liter bottle of that sitting on a shelf in the brew area. The only UltraFlo Max I found online was 1 kg for about 35 Euros, plus overseas shipping. Might have to just settle for a 104F Beta glucan rest. ☹

 

[Beerstein]

Yeah, it looks like the type of thing I like to experiment with, like amyloglucosidase. I still have about 998 ml of a 1 liter bottle of that sitting on a shelf in the brew area. The only UltraFlo Max I found online was 1 kg for about 35 Euros, plus overseas shipping. Might have to just settle for a 104F Beta glucan rest. ☹

Novozyme puts this on sale for 50% off several times a year. I'll probably give a large portion of this away. I did use a whole litre of UltraFerm the past year.

 

[Broothru]

Novozyme puts this on sale for 50% off several times a year. I'll probably give a large portion of this away. I did use a whole litre of UltraFerm the past year.

UltraFerm by White Labs actually is amyloglucosidase and debranches 1,4 1nd 1,6 bonds. Looking at the spec sheet for UltraFlo Max it appears to debranch 1,4 along with several others that Beta and Alpha amylase debranch, but not 1,6. White Labs sells UltraFerm for about $5 for 10 ml. I bought a liter online of amylo for about $10.

Do you use UltraFlo Max with amyloglucosidase in the same batch? It seems like it would end up very dry and quite thin, which might not be bad for an ultra lite/low cal/low carb beer, but not for a stout or a porter.

 

[Beerstein]

UltraFerm by White Labs actually is amyloglucosidase and debranches 1,4 1nd 1,6 bonds. Looking at the spec sheet for UltraFlo Max it appears to debranch 1,4 along with several others that Beta and Alpha amylase debranch, but not 1,6. White Labs sells UltraFerm for about $5 for 10 ml. I bought a liter online of amylo for about $10.

Do you use UltraFlo Max with amyloglucosidase in the same batch? It seems like it would end up very dry and quite thin, which might not be bad for an ultra lite/low cal/low carb beer, but not for a stout or a porter.

I am using both at the same time. I'm doing the low carb beer thing, so I've been experimenting with adapting various beer styles to dry. I've had really good luck mashing low and using UltraFerm to increase convert all the non-fermentable sugarsw. I've been making beers that have a theoretical 6 to 9 grams carbs per serving. I've had one or two that end up in the 5 gram range.

I've been experimenting with oats and wheat to try and bring back the body. I feel like I've had pretty good luck. Actually this technique works better with stouts than IPA in my opinion.

 

[hotbeer]

See I was thinking that 1.010 is kind of sweet and 1.006-7 is dry.

I was really talking relative to the number the OP was giving that we later found was an uncorrected value. Perhaps I should have said dryer instead of dry.

 

[Broothru]

I am using both at the same time. I'm doing the low carb beer thing, so I've been experimenting with adapting various beer styles to dry. I've had really good luck mashing low and using UltraFerm to increase convert all the non-fermentable sugarsw. I've been making beers that have a theoretical 6 to 9 grams carbs per serving. I've had one or two that end up in the 5 gram range.

I've been experimenting with oats and wheat to try and bring back the body. I feel like I've had pretty good luck. Actually this technique works better with stouts than IPA in my opinion.

You might be on to something here. I toyed with a few dry/lite beers a while back that actually weren't bad. With a small grist bill and O.G.s in the low 1.030s, I was able to eek out F.G.s around 0.998 using amylo and Gulo yeast. More flavor than Michelob Ultra, but still calculated carbs in the 3~5 range and Kcal 90~95 for a 12 oz pour. The problem for me was lack of body and mouthfeel. Adding oats and wheat as adjuncts might help cure that as long as the UltraFlo and/or amylo didn't reduce the glucans too much. Might be a good method for brewing a good session IPA as well.

 

[Broothru]

I was really talking relative to the number the OP was giving that we later found was an uncorrected value. Perhaps I should have said dryer instead of dry.

Like the avatar. Did ya' land short or overshoot the touchdown area?🛩

 

[hotbeer]

Like the avatar. Did ya' land short or overshoot the touchdown area?🛩

Back about 1983. Precautionary landing at about 2:00 am when I realized that I didn't have enough fuel to make it to the airport. I was on my way home by myself after riding with my friend. Prior to that leg, I was just a passenger so I could bring the airplane back home since my friend was going to be at Ft. Rucker AL in helicopter school.

Should have been more than enough fuel since it was topped off in Mobile AL on the way to Enterprise AL. However when my gauges were showing lower than I knew they should on the way home, I pulled the fuel ticket my friend had left with me and saw that there was no way the tanks had been topped off in Mobile as my friend had told them to do. I figure they must have only filled one tank.

So with no moon, less than 1500' of overcast sky and only the lights of a truck in the driveway of a nearby house showing a field beyond, I put it down. In the overgrown brush in the field I stopped in what I remember as only being less than 100 feet. No damage whatsoever to the plane nor did I soil my underwear.

So I had the field bush hogged from corner to corner, added fuel to the tanks and flew it out a couple days later. FAA said that since I didn't run out of fuel then they had no reason to consider it anything but an incident.

I did learn from then on that even when I'm not the PIC but later will be the PIC, to do my own preflight just as if I was responsible for the plane the entire time I was riding in it.

 

[Broothru]

My Father-in-Law was a doctor.

Q: "What's the most dangerous thing in aviation?"
A: "A doctor in a split tail Bonanza." (a.k.a., "Split tailed doctor killer.")

He had a fractional ownership of a Navion back in the day with three airline pilots. He was a great man, and very accomplished in many things. Aviation wasn't one of them. He had a bit of a blind spot when it came to flying. At times he'd regale me with stories of him and the Navion, running low on fuel over the mountains in northern Arkansas, VFR encounters with IFR weather, etc., that would raise the hair on the back of my neck, mostly due to his lack of self-awareness in the severity of these episodes.

He was also an avid, yet awkward, golfer. One day we were playing a casual 18 holes on a pretty little course adjacent to a small airport. As we approached the green on a par 4 hole surrounded by numerous sand traps, he commented,

"Did I ever tell you about the time I was in this sand trap and couldn't get out? It all started on my approach," he continued. "I over shot the runway, landed long and ended up in this very trap! That's when the other three guys asked to buy me out of the joint ownership."

Ya' THINK? How crude! Shoulda' asked the group putting on the hole if he could play through.

On a more serious note, I think all pilots have some recollection of times when "but for the Grace of God....." moments cause you to wake up in a cold sweat. The lucky ones of us survive and learn from our mistakes.

 

[Bilsch]

On a more serious note, I think all pilots have some recollection of times when "but for the Grace of God....." moments cause you to wake up in a cold sweat. The lucky ones of us survive and learn from our mistakes.

There should be a thread for this. Got so many great ‘sure we’re gonna die’ stories from a couple years as a freight dog in an old Aztruck.

 

[Beerstein]

You might be on to something here. I toyed with a few dry/lite beers a while back that actually weren't bad. With a small grist bill and O.G.s in the low 1.030s, I was able to eek out F.G.s around 0.998 using amylo and Gulo yeast. More flavor than Michelob Ultra, but still calculated carbs in the 3~5 range and Kcal 90~95 for a 12 oz pour. The problem for me was lack of body and mouthfeel. Adding oats and wheat as adjuncts might help cure that as long as the UltraFlo and/or amylo didn't reduce the glucans too much. Might be a good method for brewing a good session IPA as well.

I feel like I could write a lot more on this, just not on my iPad. i normally use 15-20% non malted oats in my low carb ipa. I don’t use ultraflo or glucabuster for this. Low mash, plus Ultraferm do the trick. mixing Malted wheat, plus oats really seems to do The trick. It does not feel as dry as a brut ipa does. I also tend to brew in the 8%ABV. Cutting that to 5% would very muc drop the carb count through dilution.

 

[Beerstein]

I racked this today to a keg+gelatin. I took new measurements. And I'm actually pleased it dropped a bit more.

Current measurements:

9/26 14.2P, 1.058
9/29 -0.59P, 0.998
10/2 -1.54P, 0.994

 

[Broothru]

I racked this today to a keg+gelatin. I took new measurements. And I'm actually pleased it dropped a bit more.

Current measurements:

9/26 14.2P, 1.058
9/29 -0.59P, 0.998
10/2 -1.54P, 0.994

Wow! That fell like a rock. I usually can't even get my wines to finish at 0.994 FG. Any off flavors from so quick a fermentation? Does the mouthfeel "feel" thin? I'm curious if maltodextrin would aid in giving the finished beer more body, or whether all those extra enzymes would chop the bonds of the limit dextrins.

 

[Beerstein]

Wow! That fell like a rock. I usually can't even get my wines to finish at 0.994 FG. Any off flavors from so quick a fermentation? Does the mouthfeel "feel" thin? I'm curious if maltodextrin would aid in giving the finished beer more body, or whether all those extra enzymes would chop the bonds of the limit dextrins.

I've only had 1.5 pints out of the fermenter. I detected no off tastes. A fair amount of super fine "silt."

I will give you my observations. I think different people experience thinness and body slightly differently.

In my AO, I can get Daytime IPA. Slightly Might IPA, and Wowza. These are all <5g carb beers. (I care less about about the calorie count).

To me, this beers are thin. Light Bud Light thin. Just with hops.

I would say compared to those three, what I can brew with oats has more body. It's thicker and silkier (oats). If you compare it to a nice middle of the road west coast IPA, something...is...missing. Setting aside the sweetness difference, it's hard for me to quantify.

I've considered conducting an experiment to [slightly] back-sweeten one of my low carb brews (maybe allulose or ?) and then compare to a normal IPA.

If you living a low carb life, I'd be happy to drink of one my home brewed IPA's over anything commercial. Much more satisfying in every taste sector.

On a side note: oats, plus enzymes, and pressure fermenting is amazingly fast. Kveik Voss is usually bubbling in two hours. S-05 in ~6 hours. I once had a bitter with Windsor that finished out in 18 hours.

 

[Broothru]

I've only had 1.5 pints out of the fermenter. I detected no off tastes. A fair amount of super fine "silt."

I will give you my observations. I think different people experience thinness and body slightly differently.

In my AO, I can get Daytime IPA. Slightly Might IPA, and Wowza. These are all <5g carb beers. (I care less about about the calorie count).

To me, this beers are thin. Light Bud Light thin. Just with hops.

I would say compared to those three, what I can brew with oats has more body. It's thicker and silkier (oats). If you compare it to a nice middle of the road west coast IPA, something...is...missing. Setting aside the sweetness difference, it's hard for me to quantify.

I've considered conducting an experiment to [slightly] back-sweeten one of my low carb brews (maybe allulose or ?) and then compare to a normal IPA.

If you living a low carb life, I'd be happy to drink of one my home brewed IPA's over anything commercial. Much more satisfying in every taste sector.

On a side note: oats, plus enzymes, and pressure fermenting is amazingly fast. Kveik Voss is usually bubbling in two hours. S-05 in ~6 hours. I once had a bitter with Windsor that finished out in 18 hours.

Thanks for the reply. I contemplated exactly what you've done, and it looks like time to get off the keyboard and just do it. I've been spunding late in fermentation ever since I got a pressure-capable conical, but haven't done an actual complete fermentation under pressure. I've got some Lutra that I picked up on a whim about six months ago which is nearing its "best by" date. All the other ingredients are on hand, except for oats, so there's nothing holding me back (except time).

Also, regarding back sweetening, have you ever tried brewing with monk fruit? You can get low alcohol beers with extremely low carbs (well under >5 grams/12 oz). There's a couple threads about it here. Something to consider.

 

[Beerstein]

Thanks for the reply. I contemplated exactly what you've done, and it looks like time to get off the keyboard and just do it. I've been spunding late in fermentation ever since I got a pressure-capable conical, but haven't done an actual complete fermentation under pressure. I've got some Lutra that I picked up on a whim about six months ago which is nearing its "best by" date. All the other ingredients are on hand, except for oats, so there's nothing holding me back (except time).

Also, regarding back sweetening, have you ever tried brewing with monk fruit? You can get low alcohol beers with extremely low carbs (well under >5 grams/12 oz). There's a couple threads about it here. Something to consider.

I've never brewed with monkfruit. Looks like I should try it. I've used it in baking.

I'm really a big fan of pressure fermenting. Cuts down on a lot of time, and makes bigger temp swings less of a problem.

 

[hotbeer]

What's the aim of your experimenting with back sweetening? Just to correct this one batch to something you prefer to taste and feel in your mouth?

If not for just this batch, then wouldn't a different mash temp profile change a lot of what you were musing about for the next batch?

 

[Beerstein]

What's the aim of your experimenting with back sweetening? Just to correct this one batch to something you prefer to taste and feel in your mouth?

If not for just this batch, then wouldn't a different mash temp profile change a lot of what you were musing about for the next batch?

The hypothesis: back sweetening a very dry low-carb beer with an appropriate no-calorie sweetener will change the mind's perception of the body of the beer.


I might test this later this fall. Got my hands full figuring out how to smoke grains, and replacing my keezer.

 

[hotbeer]

But if you are adding sweetener, what's the point of mashing at temps that get so many fermentable sugars that it gets that dry?

Wouldn't a higher mash temp get you more unfermentable sugars that leave you that less dry taste you seem to want?

Though I guess the flavor might be different, but your low SG won't be low SG anymore after adding sweetener will it?

Not to be rude or snooty, but it seems somewhat like Starbuck's approach to their coffee flavored beverages.

 

[Beerstein]

But if you are adding sweetener, what's the point of mashing at temps that get so many fermentable sugars that it gets that dry?

Wouldn't a higher mash temp get you more unfermentable sugars that leave you that less dry taste you seem to want?

Though I guess the flavor might be different, but your low SG won't be low SG anymore after adding sweetener will it?

Not to be rude or snooty, but it seems somewhat like Starbuck's approach to their coffee flavored beverages.

The difference is that a low carb beer's nutrition is preserved. The key being back-sweetening with a no-calorie sweetener.

 

[hotbeer]

Okay, but higher alcohol content signified by lower SG's means more Calories doesn't it?

Slowly I'm realizing that low carb is what you are after regardless of Calorie content.

 

[Beerstein]

Okay, but higher alcohol content signified by lower SG's means more Calories doesn't it?

Slowly I'm realizing that low carb is what you are after regardless of Calorie content.

Exactly! Bring on the ABV (I do try to keep it within style), but still want to keep the carps <= 7g per 12oz serving. I'll adjust how much I drink based upon the ABV. A 5% stout means an extra pour over an 8% IPA.

 

[bwible]

Can I poke into this old thread and ask some questions? I’m thinking of making a low carb beer using simething like UltraFerm.

When you’re dropping it all the way down to 1.000 or under, are you getting a beer thats like a brut? Is the dryness over the top? My wife likes Michelob Ultra. 4.5% 96 calories. But to me that doesn’t taste real dry.

From what I see of UltraFerm it says extended mash may be necessary - 2 to 3 hours, Optimal ph is 3.5 to 5.5, temperature should not exceed 141 (using it in the mash) and its completely destroyed at 185 for 10 min. I adjust ph so thats no issue. I just don’t want something brut. Maybe if I used it in a shorter mash time of an hour or less and took it above 141 for part of that I could get some additional benefit without going full brut? Dosage says 250ml for 10 barrels, so thats something like .8ml per gallon if I’ve done the math right. It comes in a 10ml vial for us.

Are you keeping your grain bills simple, mostly base malts? I’m guessing you wouldn’t be using crystal or dextrin malts if you’re going for low carb.

Thanks for any advice

 

[Broothru]

Can I poke into this old thread and ask some questions? I’m thinking of making a low carb beer using simething like UltraFerm.

When you’re dropping it all the way down to 1.000 or under, are you getting a beer thats like a brut? Is the dryness over the top? My wife likes Michelob Ultra. 4.5% 96 calories. But to me that doesn’t taste real dry.

From what I see of UltraFerm it says extended mash may be necessary - 2 to 3 hours, Optimal ph is 3.5 to 5.5, temperature should not exceed 141 (using it in the mash) and its completely destroyed at 185 for 10 min. I adjust ph so thats no issue. I just don’t want something brut. Maybe if I used it in a shorter mash time of an hour or less and took it above 141 for part of that I could get some additional benefit without going full brut? Dosage says 250ml for 10 barrels, so thats something like .8ml per gallon if I’ve done the math right. It comes in a 10ml vial for us.

Are you keeping your grain bills simple, mostly base malts? I’m guessing you wouldn’t be using crystal or dextrin malts if you’re going for low carb.

Thanks for any advice

The amyloglucosidase in UltraFerm is denatured above ~140F, so conversion of the ‘unfermentable’ starches will stop. When that happens you won’t achieve gravities approaching zero or below.

A few years back when Brut IPA was a fleeting shiny new object, I brewed a few really dry beers using amylo I’d purchased online. It’s fairly inexpensive, and a lot cheaper than UltraFerm. I bought a liter bottle and still have about 950 ml left over.

Probably brewed 5 Bruts and really dry lagers, like Michelob Ultra with final gravities around 0.995-0.998. They tasted fine and scratched a brewing itch I had at the time to experiment. Let me see if I can dig up a Mich Ultra recipe I brewed using amylo, if you’re interested.