To Go All Grain...?

[nicklawmusic]

Hi there,

I've been brewing using beer kits and additions (such as hops, steeping grains, etc) since January and, although the beer I've made is nice, I can tell the difference between that and a craft beer bought from the shop.

I'm wondering whether I should either go all grain or at least partial mash. I don't have the finances to buy a propane burner and all that, but I could make a mash tun from a 24ltr cooler and do a boiler on the stove , topping it off with cold water.

Does anyone have any advice they can give me or should I persist with the extract beers?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

 

[petey401]

Check out deathbrewers BIAB. It's how I got started, and didn't need much more equipment than I already had


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[nicklawmusic]

Thanks. Do you have a link?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

 

[Mwollak]

I started all grain last week. I did my first batch on Sunday, it was so much fun. There's more calculations needed, but it was the best decision I ever made. I was on the fence about it for a while, and just took the plunge. When you make all-grain beer you truly feel like it's your own craft instead of some cookie-cutter recipe. Surprisingly, I found it's not be as hard as I thought it was going to be. Do it!


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[nicklawmusic]

What sort of calculations?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

 

[Terek]

What sort of calculations?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

water volumes for mash and sparge. PH levels, temps, and mash times, etc. All grain is the only way. You will likely need a burner though, you have to do full boils. Although I have ran out of propane before, and just split my batch in half and did two boils at once on the stove. Its a little tricky and you dont get very good hop utilization, but it can be done. You could also do 3 gal batches and brew more. I am getting into doing this. I like brewing, and like to do it a lot, but I cant drink that much beer. Doing 3 gal batches lets me do one or two a week and not have to get hammered every night to free up bottles/space.
My buddy swears up and down about extract, but i will let you in on a little secret, I can tell the difference. Blind fold me and put a all grain and an extract in front of me and I will name the extract every time. They just taste, I dont know, "concentrated" i guess. Sweeter and kinda bla. how do they say it, "once you go all grain, you never go back."

 

[brewbama]

What sort of calculations?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

Strike water temp, mash temp, mash out temp, sparge temp, mash water volume, sparge water volume, runnings brix/specific gravity targets on first runnings, second runnings, pre and post boil target, boil off, grain absorption, dead space, etc. it's fun trying to hit all the targets and seeing the effect of missing one or two slightly.


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[Mwollak]

Fist off you need to know your pots boil off rate. From their you decide how long of boil you plan on doing. This will give you a pre-boil volume or your target volume after sparging. A portion of this pre-boiled volume comes from sparging and the other comes from mashing. When you mash you will want a water to grain ratio of about 1.25 (many will fluctuate on this).
An example:
I used 10.8 lbs of grain last week, this means I mashed with 13.5 qts (1.25 x 10.8). My pot loses 1 gal/hour and I boiled for 90 min. I wanted an ending volume of 5.25. So for a 90 min boil my pre volume needs to be 6.75 gallons or 27 quarts. This left me with 13.5 quarts to sparge with for single infusion.

Other calculations are needed to get your initial mash temp right. Your water will lose heat do to the grain. A great reference is john palmers how to brew, just google how to brew all grain, you'll learn it all fast.


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[jfk69]

I like brewing, and like to do it a lot, but I cant drink that much beer. Doing 3 gal batches lets me do one or two a week and not have to get hammered every night

Translation....I drink a lot of beer. One or two three gallon batches of beer per week, that I can drink without causing a backup in the pipeline....:rockin:

 

[divrguy]

Do it! I tried partial mash.... And maybe I'm crazy, but all grain is way easier. Lol I can make any style I want without additional calculations. I don't have to worry about part of it in DME or LME and then calculating the rest based on the size of the package of LME... Forgeddaboutit!

I brew a lot also. Small batches and big batches. I give away a lot of beer and I'm the family beer supplier at parties... And so on. All grain is cheaper and you don't need a $3000 system to do it. Keep it simple.

I also will do any great extract kit at Morebeer that's on sale. Their extract is excellent and it makes for a quicker brew day if I happen to like the beer they are promoting.


Cheers!

 

[PHDrunk]

I think it's worth making the switch to at least partial mash brewing. It's definitely a bit more complicated, but I think that the advantages outweigh the hassle. The advantages I see:

(1) control of wort fermentability. When I was extract brewing I would hit anywhere from 1.010 to 1.020 FG with very little repeatability. As a result many of the beers had a residual sweetness I've come to associate with extract brewing.

(2) recipe control. The selection of extracts (in my experience) can't match the grain selection (base and specialty) at a typical LHBS.

With these two factors, all grain or partial mash can hit a range of styles and flavor profiles that aren't necessarily accessible via extract brewing.

Take the plunge with a converted cooler mash tun and don't look back!



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[hlm123]

I would recommend trying a 1 gallon all-grain BIAB to get the basic idea what it's like. When I was still doing only extract I brewed a simple Maibock that way and found it much more satisfying. The glorious aroma of the mash converted me in an instant.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Thanks for the help. A friend of mine said that the beers I've made all have a similar taste running through them. I'm guessing that's the extract sweetness because my FGs always seem to be between 1.010 and 1.015.

Going all grain is sounding like a little bit much from what I've just read. Will a mini mash leave me with that bee kit taste as well? Am I right in thinking that you're making a concentrated wort on the stove top which you top up with extract and water?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

 

[nicklawmusic]

Forgot to say, would it be possible to buy a cooler and a strainer bag and mash your base grains in the cooler to hold temperature rather than in the pot on the stove?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

 

[kaconga]

While I don't want to deter you going into all grain brewing, I would like to point out that there are other ways of manipulating the flavor of your finished product to get a more refined taste. If you are going all grain to get better flavor then your money might be better spent on temp control or yeast propagation. Temp control is the biggest advantage when starting out and can really refine the end product far more than all grain brewing can. Yeast propagation is by far the cheapest upgrade since all it takes is a simple DIY stir plate. Lastly I would recommend trying one batch with bottled water to see if that improves your flavor any. Best of luck and happy brewing.

 

[nicklawmusic]

Thanks. I must admit, the beers that have had a bit of a flavour have all fermented a little bit high. I guess I'm just trying to ascertain whether extract beer is always going to taste... well... It's hard to describe. It's a nice beer that I'll happily drink, but when I drink it next to a craft beer, you can just tell... If you know what I mean!


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

 

[serum]

I've just started on AG and it's a lot of fun and very satisfying. I was surprised at how many of the things I was worried about actually turned out pretty easy. That's not to say there weren't challenges though!

I spent a bit on equipment but you can do it pretty cheap. One thing us Brits tend to do is to install a heating element in a fermenter or stock pot to use as a boiler as an alternative to using a gas burner. It may be worth looking into if you want a budget solution.

You can build up your gear bit by bit as money comes in and that's what I've done, slowly putting it all together until I have something close to a full rig.

 

[Paps]

Some things for all grain can be DIY made to lessen the initial costs involved.
Think mash tun and immersion wort chiller.
I use an aluminium turkey fryer for the boil kettle which saved me a few hundred as well. The bayou classic propane burner you can get at home depot for roughly 50 bucks. Build as you go and eventually you'll be doing the all grain batches.

 

[seabass07]

If you're considering it at all, then just dive in. Get beersmith and the calculations will be simple. AG is cheap enough that the equipment (if you diy) will pay for itself after a few batches with the money you'll save over extract. Especially if you can buy base grain in bulk.

 

[pennyloaf]

I made a post in the equipment section, something like $350 for whole setup (pot, burner, chiller, etc) and you could do it for a lot cheaper. I do 5 gal batches and it works out to maybe ~$10/batch cheaper.

I did it because all my extract beers seemed to taste the same and there were a lot of good all grain recipes I wanted to try.

It takes maybe 2 hours longer than extract because you have to setup the mash, mash, and then chill more beer. I havent messed with the chemistry or tasted my first beer yet.. but the general process is not any more difficult.

I will say I would rather mash in a cooler than BIAB (holding a bag above the wort for like 5 min and then feeling like you didnt get complete extraction was not fun...)

 

[jtratcliff]

brewing software is a big help. Someone already mentioned BeerSmith. I use Brewtarget (the devs are here on HBT) which is open source and cross platform.

AG can seem a little intimidating at first but once you've done it, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

I do 6 Gal stovetop BIAB batches in a 10g kettle, overnight chill in the kettle, ferment in buckets, temp control with a swamp cooler in a party tub. It's fairly quick (4ish hours) and pretty straightforward.

 

[hlm123]

Forgot to say, would it be possible to buy a cooler and a strainer bag and mash your base grains in the cooler to hold temperature rather than in the pot on the stove?


Emmanuales | #WhatWouldJesusBrew?
nick-law.com

That's what I do since I'm only using a 5 gallon boil kettle. After mashing in the cooler I use the kettle to drain and sparge the grain bag, and then siphon the wort from the cooler to the kettle to get the full pre-boil volume for a 3.75 gallon batch. But I've also found that the kettle can hold the mash temperature pretty well steady (within 1* F) for an hour if that's the concern.

 

[divrguy]

I think it's worth making the switch to at least partial mash brewing. It's definitely a bit more complicated, but I think that the advantages outweigh the hassle. The advantages I see:

(1) control of wort fermentability. When I was extract brewing I would hit anywhere from 1.010 to 1.020 FG with very little repeatability. As a result many of the beers had a residual sweetness I've come to associate with extract brewing.

(2) recipe control. The selection of extracts (in my experience) can't match the grain selection (base and specialty) at a typical LHBS.

With these two factors, all grain or partial mash can hit a range of styles and flavor profiles that aren't necessarily accessible via extract brewing.

Take the plunge with a converted cooler mash tun and don't look back!



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If you had a 10 gravity swing doing extract, you're process was very flawed! No offense seriously! Extract brewing should be pretty much dead on... All the time or at least a point or 2 off if your volumes aren't quite right

 

[petey401]

Orfy made it a stiky. Just above your post


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[SnowcreekWI]

Long time extract brewer here, and just started AG with 3 batches bottled so far. I know some say flavor should not be that much different but I am convinced AG has a smoother, more "honest" beer taste. Hard to describe but I am not going back to extract.

 

[PHDrunk]

If you had a 10 gravity swing doing extract, you're process was very flawed! No offense seriously! Extract brewing should be pretty much dead on... All the time or at least a point or 2 off if your volumes aren't quite right

No offense taken -- certainly some of the issue was inexperience. As some have pointed out on this thread, healthier yeast always leads to better beer.

It does not, however, resolve the fermentability issue. Even the healthiest pitch of Brewer's yeast cannot ferment complex sugars in the wort. If these complex sugars exist in significant proportion prior to fermentation they will remain afterward and will lead to a higher final gravity, increased body or maltiness in the beer, and can lead to a perceived sweetness in the final product -- which can all be awesome things in a beer depending on what you're going for.

All grain brewers can activate (or denature) different enzymes in the mash, and as a result, can control the content of simple and complex sugars in the wort -- and thus the fermentability. In extract brewing, the fermentability is predetermined by the extract used. Furthermore, if you read Ray Daniel's Designing Better Beer, he does a case study on different types of extract and concludes that the fermentability will vary for different brands, different products (i.e. light, dark, etc.), and different batches. Hence my assertion that AG brewing gives more degrees of freedom in recipe control and better repeatability.

Can you make good extract beer? Certainly. \begin(anecdote) I maintain one of the best beers I've ever made was an extract DIPA \end(anecdote). But I definitely believe AG gives more control, and lends itself better to certain styles. For example, if you wanted a incredibly dry saison (FG ~ 1.004 or so), I can't imagine pulling that off with extract and traditional brewer's yeast (read: no Brett). But as always, YMMV.

 

[cmoewes]

I would recommend trying a 1 gallon all-grain BIAB to get the basic idea what it's like. When I was still doing only extract I brewed a simple Maibock that way and found it much more satisfying. The glorious aroma of the mash converted me in an instant.

I would also recommend this strategy. I started out brewing 1 gallon all grain batches and I think it was the most rewarding way to go (for me).

If you can get a hold of a 2-3 gallon water cooler you can build a fully functional mash tun in that. Then look for a 2 gallon food safe bucket (my LHBS sells them) with a lid and air lock. The batches are actually 1.5 gallon. Then if you want you can rack off into a 1 gallon glass cider jug. You will get out almost exactly 5 bomber (22oz) bottles.

The only issue was batch cost. Grains and hops are all proportional to the batch size, but the yeast is fixed. $6 for liquid and $3-4 for dry.

Still is a great way to get a feel for it and I still use mine to try mini versions of new recipes.

 

[italarican]

Shoot, for my original 1-gallon BIABs I just left my 2.25 gallon pot on the stove with the lid on and burner off for the mash. If you have minimal head space, the heat retention is pretty good. This was a great way to get familiar with all grain brewing with no additional equipment.

I also feel like I learned so much more once I went to partial mash and then all grain. This in effect made homebrewing much easier in the long run.

Lastly, switching to all grain may still seem intimidating, but rest assured that many of us didn't just flip the switch one day and decide to do it. It took a few months and batches of contemplating and reviewing all this new information before I decided to give it a shot. You may have had a similar experience when deciding to brew in the first place. In short: it's initially intimidating but definitely doable.

 

[masonsjax]

If funds are an issue, the BIAB recommendation is a good one. If you're not happy with the beers you've been making, it's more likely process issues and going all grain probably isn't the fix you're looking for. Some of these things have been mentioned already, but... Temp control during active fermentation will be your biggest improvement. Healthy yeast is a big one too, and easy to resolve by just using dry yeast, or making starters. You don't actually need a stir plate to make a starter, but it makes the process more efficient. If you can figure out how to do full volume boils instead of topping off with water after the boil, you'll notice a vast improvement in the quality of your beer as well. Getting your water tested to see if it's suitable for brewing could reveal some areas for improvement. Doing a longer primary, using fining agents, being very careful about sanitation, being extra gentle when transferring to keg or bottling bucket, blocking light in transparent vessels, etc. can all make noticeable improvement as well. If you're doing all of the above, your beer should be at least as good as store bought, and many of the things I listed don't cost much if anything.

 

[ncbrewer]

If funds are an issue, the BIAB recommendation is a good one. If you're not happy with the beers you've been making, it's more likely process issues and going all grain probably isn't the fix you're looking for. Some of these things have been mentioned already, but... Temp control during active fermentation will be your biggest improvement. Healthy yeast is a big one too, and easy to resolve by just using dry yeast, or making starters. You don't actually need a stir plate to make a starter, but it makes the process more efficient. If you can figure out how to do full volume boils instead of topping off with water after the boil, you'll notice a vast improvement in the quality of your beer as well. Getting your water tested to see if it's suitable for brewing could reveal some areas for improvement. Doing a longer primary, using fining agents, being very careful about sanitation, being extra gentle when transferring to keg or bottling bucket, blocking light in transparent vessels, etc. can all make noticeable improvement as well. If you're doing all of the above, your beer should be at least as good as store bought, and many of the things I listed don't cost much if anything.

+1
In one thread, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/al...mpeting-against-each-other-441933/index4.html it was noted that Jamil Zainashef did an experiment brewing extract beer and serving it to other very experienced brewers - no one noticed the difference.

I also believe that if full boils are not possible/practical, late extract addition can accomplish pretty much the same thing. Adding about 1/3 at the beginning of the boil and the rest at flame-out works well - let it stand about 10 minutes to sanitize.

If you're still interested in all-grain, but a propane burner is out of the question, a split boil works. I just started all-grain - split boil, and chill each in an ice water bath. This eliminates the cost of an immersion chiller also.

 

[Croyzen]

I stay as far away from extract brewing as possible. Never could create a batch that blew me away. Even with partial mash. I still use dme for yeast starters but I try to decant. You only have one liver... give it all grain like it wants.

 

[planetscott]

Check Craig's List for brewing equipment such as burners and mash tuns.

 

[DurtyChemist]

Try brew in a bag. I just did a porter with 8lbs 2 row, 1 lb chocolate and 1 lb Crystal 60L. 155F mash for 75 minutes then boil. I used 7.5 gallons of water for the mash. Simple recipe to try out.


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[muels]

Extract can be done with very good results. It all depends on your process. Fermentation temp control will take you a long way. I prefer all grain because of the control and the satisfaction but I brewed a lot of tasty extract brew with simple process control. Do starters and/or rehydrate dry yeast; there are awesome stickies on here for doing both. If your house is at normal room temp (70ish) you should have no issue using a plastic recycle type bin with water and a few ice bottles. If you do it a few times you will figure out how many bottles how often to maintain a certain temp. I need 2 bottles every 12 hours to stay between 66 and 68. I can hold 60-62 with a little bit of effort. By all means go all grain, it's very rewarding. But don't feel like you can't make good beer doing extract.


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[ram5ey]

I am a biab guy but I have made some great extract batches. It's all about managing a great fermentation and using healthy yeast and the correct amount of it. I've had some very poor AG beer because all the brewer cared about was wort production and not fermentation.

 

[charliehorse]

There are a few reasons to move to all-grain brewing.

1. Cost per batch is lower.
2. More control over recipes.
3. Learning the chemistry behind brewing.
4. Bragging rights.
5. You get to convince SWMBO that you *need* that fancy equipment.

I understand that there are budgetary issues. That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with brewing from extract. Many fine beers have been made using extract kits or recipes. In fact, the best batch of beer that I've made was an extract kit (the last extract batch I made before switching to all-grain). Try as I might, I can't get the recipe dialed in quite right for it.

If I were the OP (or somebody else thinking about the switch), I would sit down and evaluate why you want to switch and what you can do to ease yourself into the transition: BIAB, Batch Sparging, Brew with a friend... If you want to make the transition, make a list of the equipment that you need (a kettle that is 30 quarts MINIMUM), a way to chill 5 gallons of wort that is in the 212* range, a way to bring 6.5 gallons of water to a boil in a reasonable time (you can do it on your electric stove, but it will take a looong time to boil, but not too long. remember, you're starting out with wort that is about 165*, so you only have to increase the temp by 47*) and something to mash your grains in.

As far as all of the calculations go... do NOT let that scare you. Download Brewtarget and look on here for some recipes and play around a bit (and perhaps do a bit of fantasizing). You'll notice that you really don't need to do a bunch of calculations. Most software will tell you what temperature your strike water should be if you want to mash at 152* and your grains are at room temperature (hint: I normally heat my strike water to 165* and adjust and use sparge water that is 170*).

When you're ready to make the jump, watch lots of YouTube videos and/or brew with some members of your local brew club or even go to the How To Brew Day at your local brew shop. Lots of brew shops have free classes (although so charge and I can't figure out why). Once you're brewing all-grain, you'll want to know more... which yeasts do what, the flavor profiles of hops, the difference between 2-row and 6-row barley (nearly none now) and you can learn a lot.

In short, if you don't think that you can afford what it takes (in your mind) to make the switch, buy a bit of equipment at a time or save up. Most of all, even if you screw up, you'll still end up with beer.

 

[VikingChrisColby]

Going all-grain can be a big decision. However, it's not that complicated. Some people make it out to me more elaborate than it is. FWIW, here's what I wrote about it a little while ago:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/go-all-grain/

Partial mashing can be a great intermediate step to all-grain brewing. At a minimum, it can take some of the mystery out of mashing. I also wrote something about that recently:

http://beerandwinejournal.com/mash-vs-steep/

Hope these links help.


Chris Colby
Editor
http://beerandwinejournal.com/

 

[Blastardius]

I made the jump this past weekend! Prior weekend I built the home depot cooler MLT lots of good instructions here and on the web ,cost:$81.00. Monday I won a 160,000 btu turkey fryer w/ 30q aluminum pot on Ebay cost :$10.50 + $33 shipping. I did a Founders Breakfast stout (semi) clone recipe I found on the stout section here on HBT (post #106) on the founders recipe thread post by Mhot55:

12lbs 2-row
2.2 lbs flaked oats (yeah, i said 2+ lbs!)
14 oz. pale chocolate
12 oz. roasted barley
8 oz. carafa III
6 oz. caramel 120L
1 oz Chinook (13%) 60 min
1 oz Willemette (5.5%) 15 min
.5 oz Willemette (5.5%) 0 min
WY 1056 ( subbed with 2x S-04)
OG 1.072 and its bubbling like crazy at 68*

I would like to express my appreciation to the members of this forum for all the help you unknowingly helped me through to/from extract to all grain!