To Amylase or not to Amylase....

[AerationStation]

I just did a starch test and it is negative!

SIDEBAR:

From what i recall the iodine test to check for starch conversion to sugar can be a little misleading.

The reason it comes out positive is that the iodine gets trapped in a helix (at least I think its a helix, could be some other structure) created by polymerized amylose and branch-chain amylopectin (I.e starch).

You can break up that helix but still not get full amylose/amylopectin conversion. It's more of a "if it comes up positive we defiently screwed up. If its negative then we might have screwed up".

Food for thought, just thought I'd bring it up.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

Just to comment:

I don't think the beer tasted sweet at all. Green, but no sweetness whatsoever.

I agree with the assessment that I screwed up: 100%.

About the addition of the sugar: I should have broken it up and added it over time, and not to the boil.

About the iodine test: I'm checking the SG tomorrow. If it hasn't budged, I'm going to purchase WY3711 using the 48 hour starter method suggested.

If that doesn't work, I'm adding 1/8th tsp of amylase to start and adding a blow off.

I just wanted to thank you all for your feedback. Your food for thought has been enlightening.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

I went to check the beer and much to my pleasant surprise, the green apple (acetylaldehyde) flavor was gone. My refractometer read 1.029 but something didn't seem right. The flavor profile had been corrected in four short days using the Côte des Blancs. It tasted slightly sweet, slightly fruity, and a little hot. With the exception of being a little hot, which is not uncommon for big beers as I've read, it tasted perfect to me. These are all characteristic of Duvel and exactly what I want.

I suddenly remembered why I purchased a refractometer in the first place: I was paranoid about infecting my beer because I was relatively inexperienced and I loved the convenience. This is the price I pay for my convenience and my paranoia. I pulled a hydrometer sample and instead of the refractometer's 1.029, I got ~1.015. The picture is a little misleading because of the suds, but I made the executive decision to keg and cold crash it below freezing at 27F. I'm going to condition it based on the schedule in "Brew Like A Monk" for the Duvel recipe, which is where I got the idea for this recipe.

If I had used a damned hydrometer from the beginning, I think a lot of my confusion would have been mitigated. This also means that I don't really know what my OG was. Since my refractometer is off (FatDragon was correct), I really don't know where I started. I find it highly doubtful that the wine yeast really could have corrected the gravity that deeply in the 4 day period that it was in the primary. The flavor profile is where I want it to be and I'm going to let everything precipitate out and start conditioning it.

What a long strange trip it's been. Thank you all for reading and giving your input. I plan to burp the keg regularly in case there is any ongoing fermentation and to prevent overcarbing.

 

[FatDragon]

Your refractometer's probably fine, it's likely that your OG reading was accurate. Refractometers can't read accurately with alcohol in solution. There are calculators out there that correct for refractometer readings of fermented beer, but like the calculators that correct for hydrometer readings taken too hot, they're not fully reliable.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

Your refractometer's probably fine, it's likely that your OG reading was accurate. Refractometers can't read accurately with alcohol in solution. There are calculators out there that correct for refractometer readings of fermented beer, but like the calculators that correct for hydrometer readings taken too hot, they're not fully reliable.

Well thank you for planting the seed in my head. I would've languished over this longer without your help and the help of the community.

Edit: I will let everyone know on this thread how my Strong Blonde Belgian turns out. I hope she slaps me across the face and it hurts in that good way.

 

[FatDragon]

Edit: I will let everyone know on this thread how my Strong Blonde Belgian turns out. I hope she slaps me across the face and it hurts in that good way.

I see what you did there...

 

[beersk]

I know the trouble with adding Amylase enzyme to bring the gravity down further is that it could potentially dry it out too much. I wonder if you could add half a campden tablet when it's reached the gravity you want it to be to stall the fermentation. Or cold crash, then keg.

Seems feasible, right? Although, I'd think cold crashing wouldn't be the ideal option of the two because of acetaldehyde from refermentation. I tasted a friend's beer who added amylase to, the gravity was at 1.015, but I definitely got acetaldehyde. I told him to let it sit another 5 or so days to let that clean up before he cold crashes and kegs.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

Exactly. The general consensus was a repitch would do more for me than amylase. It worked so well that the wine yeast that I used cleaned up the acetylaldehyde perfectly.

If I had used a hydrometer instead of a refractometer I would have realized that it was closer to FG. Since I thought it was so far off I thought amylase was an option. But it was a matter of measurement as opposed to method.

I was already hesitant about adding amylase. The first beer I ever brewed was this recipe. I've brewed several beers since with great success. Fermentation became stuck the first time and I added Beano (alpha-galactosidase). It turned into a nightmare very rapidly.

This experience has taught me two things:

1. Repitch when necessary. The yeast is mightier than the enzyme.
2. Always double check your measurements and the way you measure.

 

[helibrewer]

Try this calculator in ther future, it is pretty accurate for post-fermentation
refractometer-calculator/

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

Try this calculator in ther future, it is pretty accurate for post-fermentation
refractometer-calculator/

Thank you very much. That is now bookmarked.

 

[beersk]

Repitching is always the best option if it stops at 1.024...that may be more of a wort profile issue than a yeast issue. I don't know all the science on it, but that often seems to be the case. Brewing is a never ending quest to perfection...just like playing an instrument.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

Repitching is always the best option if it stops at 1.024...that may be more of a wort profile issue than a yeast issue. I don't know all the science on it, but that often seems to be the case. Brewing is a never ending quest to perfection...just like playing an instrument.

By all accounts, the amount of simple sugar I added made for lazy/upset yeast. Smaller editions of the simple sugar over time would have mitigated this issue. I added it all straight to the boil which I'm sure was my number 1 mistake. In the book, Brew Like A Monk, they mention adding candy sugar straight to the boil. But I am very obviously not a Moortgat brewmaster.

 

[BigPerm]

It worked so well that the wine yeast that I used cleaned up the acetylaldehyde perfectly.

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the wine yeast cleared up your off flavors, maybe they matured out on their own. Impossible to say

If I had used a hydrometer instead of a refractometer I would have realized that it was closer to FG. Since I thought it was so far off I thought amylase was an option. But it was a matter of measurement as opposed to method.

This experience has taught me two things:

1. Repitch when necessary. The yeast is mightier than the enzyme.
2. Always double check your measurements and the way you measure.

What you should also learn from this is something that all of us have erred on at one point or another: be wary of making assessments too early. Had you taken a hydrometer reading and waited a week or two before posting, you may have had an entirely different experience. I actually think that everything here would have been just fine. When you're relatively inexperienced, off flavors are unfamiliar and can be a little distressing. Your points above are good points to learn, but sometimes taking a deep breath is the best thing to do, especially with big beers.

Cheers!

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the wine yeast cleared up your off flavors, maybe they matured out on their own. Impossible to say

You are right. One could also argue that when I repitched with wine yeast that I also added yeast nutrient, which accelerated the maturation process by adding FAN.

What you should also learn from this is something that all of us have erred on at one point or another: be wary of making assessments too early.

After a month in the primary, and 2 separate readings that had not changed a week apart from each other with no change in flavor profile and very sparse airlock activity, I don't believe my assessment was too early. I do believe that had I used a hydrometer instead of a refractometer, my assessment would have been very different. You are correct in that regard and I do appreciate your feedback.

 

[beersk]

By all accounts, the amount of simple sugar I added made for lazy/upset yeast. Smaller editions of the simple sugar over time would have mitigated this issue. I added it all straight to the boil which I'm sure was my number 1 mistake. In the book, Brew Like A Monk, they mention adding candy sugar straight to the boil. But I am very obviously not a Moortgat brewmaster.

God damn it, I meant to say ISN'T always the best option. Ugh, stupid brain getting ahead of my fingers.
I think simple sugar straight to the boil is fine, I doubt that was your problem. Could've been the mash profile, the fermentation temperature, O2 at the start, less than healthy yeast...
I'm always baffled when I get an under attenuated beer. People always say, "Get an oxygen setup! You'll never have to worry about under attenuation again!" Bull****. So many other factors involved than just O2 at the start.

 

[ToilAndTrouble]

It's not perfect, but it's tasty and potent.

Procedure: following Brew Like a Monk, I raised the temperature of the brew after the cold crash to 75F for a month. Then I placed the keg into my brew freezer at 50F for 3 weeks.

I have sampled this beer for the second time in two weeks. My verdict: patience and proper SG measurements are virtues. This beer is highly drinkable!

It's not a perfect Duvel clone. The SRM is darker. It is cloudier than I would like. Head retention, however is the best I've ever seen in a beer I've made. There is a strong clove flavor in it, moreso than I would like. It is slightly sweet, slightly hot, and it still has a very slight meaty undertone to it.

But, all things being equal, I consider this beer a success. I think my yeast choice contributed to the clove flavor, but I'm going to let it age out and see where the sweet spot is.

Anyway, that's my update. I just wanted to let the community know what became of this beer.

On the topic:
I am very glad I did not use amylase.

 

[Aonghus]

Been in primary fermentation for one month. It is hazy as hell.

I'm going to do a starch test on it. But beano is out of the question. It cleaves and keeps on cleaving. I posted a link to another thread showing someone using amylase successfully.

I like BibPem's idea of using Brettanomyces and forgetting about it for a while.