This dude says vorlauf strips lipids and should not be done.

[Beer is good]

What do you guys think of this:

http://northernbrewer.blogspot.com/2010/03/2-things-literature-says-you-should-do.html

 

[day_trippr]

Not much. On either count.

I wonder if he actually brews?

Cheers!

 

[Beer is good]

Not much. On either count.

I wonder if he actually brews?

Cheers!

Yeah, I've never heard this anywhere before, but barely know anything.

 

[day_trippr]

On the yeast hydration thing, Fermentis (kind of a big deal in dry brewers yeast) actually recommends hydration with water over sprinkling over wort.

That pretty much put me in the "ignore this nitwit" mode from the jump.
The HSA thing and then the lipid strippin' thing never had a chance...

Cheers!

 

[Gentlemans_Ale]

Where's this literature?

 

[kh54s10]

As to the yeast I would trust the yeast manufacturers who say that it is best to rehydrate over this guy whoever he is....

As to vorlauf, how can anything be stripped when all you are doing is drawing liquid out of the valve and pouring it back in????

 

[Beer is good]

As to the yeast I would trust the yeast manufacturers who say that it is best to rehydrate over this guy whoever he is....

As to vorlauf, how can anything be stripped when all you are doing is drawing liquid out of the valve and pouring it back in????

In the comments, he said the lipids can stick to the husks when you run the wort through them. He also says it can stick to filters too, so filtering is bad.

 

[day_trippr]

Good question.

It's not like the wort was drawn from a husk-free vessel then dumped into a husk-enhanced vessel where all those vicious husks glom onto all of the helpless lipids thus depriving the poor yeasts of the lipid course with their supper...

Cheers!

 

[SilverZero]

First things first: This blog post is five years old, and it popped up for debate back when it was written.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/northern-brewer-blog-says-you-shouldnt-vorlauf-179987/

But I'll still throw in my thoughts. How big do we think lipids are that they're going to get stuck in the grain bed during a vorlauf or, worse, a full-mash recirculation? (Hint: They're molecules, so . . . not much.) Or is there some evidence that these lipids will be bound to something else during the recirculation, in which case . . . how are they not binding during the mash in general?

This whole thing just sounds like somebody parroting faulty reasoning for bad brewing practice. The author directly contradicts the very-well-accepted and well-researched information in "Yeast" (White and JZ). Anybody who recommends sprinkling yeast directly into the wort over rehydrating - not just saying it's not so bad - automatically earns my skepticism.

 

[kh54s10]

In the comments, he said the lipids can stick to the husks when you run the wort through them. He also says it can stick to filters too, so filtering is bad.

Good question.

It's not like the wort was drawn from a husk-free vessel then dumped into a husk-enhanced vessel where all those vicious husks glom onto all of the helpless lipids thus depriving the poor yeasts of the lipid course with their supper...

Cheers!

Besides that, when I vorlauf, I only recirculate about 1 quart of wort. How many lipids are in there that will get stuck???? And why would the get stuck by doing a vorlauf and would not stick if you didn't??

A bunch of bunk, IMO.

 

[sandyeggoxj]

Thanks for the link guys. A good laugh before I settle into bed. Cheers!

 

[VladOfTrub]

The guy has a video out and he talks about the lipid thing. After seeing his brewing method and listening to what he had to say, I wouldn't take too much to heart.

 

[JonM]

Anyone else notice the "vorlaufing can cause hot side aeration" line?

I think the 2010 publication date might have something to do with that.

 

[Culbetron]

Here's a link to a Northern Brewer video with "that guy" Jeremy King. It's about open fermentation and spontaneous fermentation, but he doesn't mention the anti-vorlaufing thing in there.

http://www.northernbrewer.com/connect/episode/brewing-tv-episode-04-open-fermentation/

 

[LLBrewer]

Anybody who recommends sprinkling yeast directly into the wort over rehydrating - not just saying it's not so bad - automatically earns my skepticism.

I would recommend exactly that. I never rehydrate as a matter of laziness. I have more than enough empirical evidence to satisfy myself. Sprinkle and forget.

 

[oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer]

Fermentus say's right on the packet of 05 to sprinkle on wort. Say's nothing about re hydrating. I have done both and notice no difference. Somehow it still makes good beer. Must be yeasts nature. I guess they just like sugar.

 

[hunter_le five]

Fermentus say's right on the packet of 05 to sprinkle on wort. Say's nothing about re hydrating. I have done both and notice no difference. Somehow it still makes good beer. Must be yeasts nature. I guess they just like sugar.

http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

http://www.brewwithfermentis.com/tips-tricks/yeast-rehydration/

 

[oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer]

I have read those as well. Just pointing out what the directions on the manufacturers product's factory packages states. Either way works. I generally pitch slurry's and don't worry. They yeast wake up then eat and clean up after themselves and go back to bed.

 

[hunter_le five]

I have read those as well. Just pointing out what the directions on the manufacturers product's factory packages states. Either way works. I generally pitch slurry's and don't worry. They yeast wake up then eat and clean up after themselves and go back to bed.

Yes, simply sprinkling dry yeast into wort works. Nobody has ever disputed that.
However, rehydrating works better.

 

[oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer]

Yes, simply sprinkling dry yeast into wort works. Nobody has ever disputed that.
However, rehydrating works better.

Maybe

 

[mabrungard]

+1 regarding rehydrating working better. I've brewed identical batches and pitched the same dry yeast (one directly into the fermenter and the other rehydrated in boiled and cooled water) and observed a good 6 hour reduction in time to fermentation activity with the rehydrated yeast.

As mentioned, both methods work, rehydration works better. Do be careful with the temperature of the water that you pitch that yeast in. As far as I'm concerned, the water needs to be cool to the touch. I'm betting that a lot of problems come from pitching yeast into water that is too hot and that will kill some yeast.

 

[grathan]

I forgot the vorlauf one time last year. Best beer that I made that year. Nothing that resembled tannins or astringency. I wouldn't hesitate to not vorlauf again sometime in my batch sparge process. Typical had been vorlauf until clear, usually by pump, usually a couple gallons.


I would describe it as a thick malty mouthfeel.

 

[hunter_le five]

I'm getting eerie flashbacks to the 5.2 mash stabilizer thread.

By all means, let's ignore scientifically proven facts in favor of anecdotal, entirely subjective evidence based on perceptions rather than any sort of data.

 

[Beer is good]

Yes, simply sprinkling dry yeast into wort works. Nobody has ever disputed that.
However, rehydrating works better.

Better in what way?

 

[LLBrewer]

However, rehydrating works better.

Now this, on the other hand, HAS been disputed. And debunked to my satisfaction.

 

[LLBrewer]

By all means, let's ignore scientifically proven facts in favor of anecdotal, entirely subjective evidence based on perceptions rather than any sort of data.

It is a fact that not rehydrating can produce great beer. It only takes a single data point to prove it but I have many.

 

[Singletrack]

+1 regarding rehydrating working better. I've brewed identical batches and pitched the same dry yeast (one directly into the fermenter and the other rehydrated in boiled and cooled water) and observed a good 6 hour reduction in time to fermentation activity with the rehydrated yeast.

My beers are typically grain to glass in 6 weeks (or more), so if I rehydrate, I could cut that down to 5.96 weeks?

Was the beer any different? Was attenuation higher for the rehydrated batch? I would have to see a difference that is more important than lag time to conclude that rehydrating works better. Did you see (or taste) something else?

 

[grathan]

First things first: This blog post is five years old, and it popped up for debate back when it was written.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/northern-brewer-blog-says-you-shouldnt-vorlauf-179987/

But I'll still throw in my thoughts. How big do we think lipids are that they're going to get stuck in the grain bed during a vorlauf or, worse, a full-mash recirculation? (Hint: They're molecules, so . . . not much.) Or is there some evidence that these lipids will be bound to something else during the recirculation, in which case . . . how are they not binding during the mash in general?

This whole thing just sounds like somebody parroting faulty reasoning for bad brewing practice. The author directly contradicts the very-well-accepted and well-researched information in "Yeast" (White and JZ). Anybody who recommends sprinkling yeast directly into the wort over rehydrating - not just saying it's not so bad - automatically earns my skepticism.

It's a shame that thread also turned into useless hydrate/no hydrate debate.




Wikipedia suggests that lipids are a group of naturally occurring molecules that include fats, waxes, sterols, fat-soluble vitamins (such as vitamins A, D, E, and K), monoglycerides, diglycerides, triglycerides, phospholipids, and others. They are insoluable in water.

They sound "sticky" like the perfect candidate to be filtered out by a recirculating mash bed. Ever notice a fine powder on top of the mash bed? Ever get a stuck mash? Even liquid can be filtered out....

This paper(1984) suggests that trub and spent hops are responsible for huge lipid additions to beer.

The work of Klopper et al13 and Jones et ali2
showed that the means of mash separation can influence
significantly the level of lipids in wort.

ALso that filtering

Mash filters result in higher levels of lipid in the wort than
with other systems of mash separation. Most of the
additional lipid in the sweet wort is associated with wort
solids and is eluted in the first 25 minutes of the mash
run-off (Fig. 2) while the level of solids is high. Recirculation
of this early wort would undoubtedly diminish the
levels of both solids and lipids. There is slight increase in
the lipid concentration (using values adjusted to wort
gravity of 040) towards the end of the mash run-off
though this is largely insignificant compared with the
quantities of lipid already released from the mash.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1985.tb04349.x/pdf

It is well known that lipids are huge for creating sterol reserves, especially in oxygen-depreived wort.
http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-2-1.html


I think it's fair to say that most "homebrewers" benefit from lipids without even knowing it due to their tendency to underpitch and not separate trub.

 

[kombat]

Besides that, when I vorlauf, I only recirculate about 1 quart of wort.

That's not very much - how much do the rest of you guys recirculate/vorlauf? I used to volauf a couple pitchers' worth (about a gallon in total), but ever since I switched to a grant/pump recirculation setup, I've been drawing extremely clear sweet wort from my mash tun. I recirculate for 10-15 minutes while my sparge water heats up, which works out to several gallons being recirculated. I've found that after 5-10 minutes of continuous recirculation, the wort clears up considerably. I don't know if that makes any difference in the final beer, but it's nice to know I've got very clear wort going into the boil kettle.

 

[kombat]

Fermentus say's right on the packet of 05 to sprinkle on wort. Say's nothing about re hydrating.

That's because the packet is fairly small, there's only so much room for text on it.

Their official data sheet describes the recommended rehydration procedure. It mentions it first, actually, before any mention of sprinkling directly.

Research (i.e., not anecdotes) has concluded that sprinkling dry yeast directly into wort reduces its viability by up to 50% [cite: "Yeast", White/Zainasheff].

I have done both and notice no difference. Somehow it still makes good beer. Must be yeasts nature. I guess they just like sugar.

Your inability to distinguish subtle off-flavours does not mean such flaws aren't present.

The main point is pitching rate. You don't have to rehydrate if you don't want to - just make sure you pitch enough dry yeast to account for a 50% loss in viability. So sprinkle two packs, or rehydrate one. But if you just sprinkle one, then you're underpitching considerably (assuming a 5 gallon batch of at least 1.040 gravity wort).