Thinkin'....I'm thinkin'.....I'm thinkin'....

[Mindar76]

Wow. I think I've lurked on here long enough. I've been brewing for about two years now. I did a couple extract batches and moved on up to keggle/converted keg/whatever all grain fairly quickly. My problem? I've always intended to eventually brew in my basement rather then out in the elements. I already knew the dangers of propane indoors, and I thought of natural gas, but eventually figured on electric. So it seemed logical to skip purchasing one of ye olde ubiquitous turkey fryer and just stick with my underpowered side burner on my gas grill.

And of course I found the creme de la creme of the electric brewing setups, Kal's Electric Brewery, but WHEW! is that expensive! And then I saw Boerderij Kabouter's Simple Brew/twentE setup and went well, what if I kinda meet halfway? I've already got two kegs, one for the bk/hlt, and the other as the mlt, and also have an immersion chiller I can attach to the lid of the bk/hlt to turn it into a HERMS system like Boerderij's. But because I want to deal with bigger volumes then Boerderij, but with less equipment then Kal did, I'm kind of loss as to where to go.

I know I want to be able to do 10 gallon batches, so I'll have to go up to 240v, and it also gets away from Boerderij's protability, but that's not really an issue for me. So that leaves me with a BK/HLT with a 240v (I'm thinking 5500w) element, one pump, and a single controller. But trying to reign in Kal's beast of a controller just makes my head swim. And since my electrical knowledge pretty much begins and ends with (besides reading all the horrific safety warnings) learning not to use a metal knife to get the toaster to pop, I figured I'd ask for some help.

So what am I looking at? I'm not looking for automation, just a way to monitor the temp of the kettle and the mash and be able to run it through the HERMS when needed. I don't need plugs for an HLT so just copying Kal's controller board adds lots of equipment, expenses and time I don't need to spend. Where should I go from here? How would you mash up Boerderij's 2-vessel HERMS system with Kal's Borg cube of a controller?

 

[djsethall]

Well, I don't know much about Boerderij's or Kal Borg, but I would suggest 3 kegs. 1 for a hlt, one for a mlt and one for a bk. The reason that you will want a seperate bk from hlt is sparge. So, if I were starting from scratch, I would get a march pump, 2 PID controllers and 5 solid state relays. Keg 1 we will call the HLT. You get a 1 1/2 inch half coupling (you don't need a full coupling because you won't be sscrewing anything into the other side) and have it welded low on the side of the keg. That will accomodate your element for your HLT. That element will be connected to the two legs of 220 via the ssr's which can be controlled by the 1st PID controller. Depending on your preference for pipe size (3/8 works for me) you get a full coupling in your preferred pipe size and have that welded about 2 inches from the bottom of the HLT. You will then need a nipple, an elbow and another smaller nipple to create a dip tube for the hot water to come out of and into your mlt. You can put it inline with your pump or gravity feed. You will want a valve to be able to turn the water from the HLT on and off. You will want to build a rims heater tube using 1 1/2 stainless fittings. I used 1 tee, one 10" nipple and the reducing bushings to get eveyrthing down to the correct size of your tubing. www.buyfittingsonline.com will have reasonable prices for you. With your HLT and your heater tube out of the way, its time to concentrate on your MLT. Take one of your kegs and have a coupling (size of your preference) welded onto the side again about 2 inches from the bottom. Build a similar dip tube as the HLT. Purchase or fabricate a false bottom for your MLT. The output of your MLT will go through the heater tube and back into your MLT. The element will be controlled by the second MLT and run 110 instead of 220. Its an easy way to get the wattage down to keep temps where they shouold be. You can raise the temp usin the heater tube, but you gotta be slow with it or risk scorching your wort. With the HLT and MLT out of the way, next step is your BK. Third keg gets (2) 1 1/2 half couplings welded in to accomodate your boiler elements. You can control these with the third PID or a set of dimmer switches. You will also want a coupling of your pipe size preference and a dip tube for the boiler. There ya go one complete RIMS system. The wort will go from the mlt, through your pump, through your heater tube and back into your mlt. I use a piece of hoe for this so I can transfer out of the MLT into my BK without having too much trouble. Simply use the hose to circulate back to your mlt and when you are ready to, switch it over to the bk for pump out. You can look at my gallery to kinda get an idea of what I am talking about. Have fun with the build

 

[Mindar76]

Thanks, but adding a 3rd keg is what I'm trying to avoid. It adds demand for space, equipment and complexity. Also, I'm trying to stay with reusing the equipment I already have. I already have a keg bk and mlt with weldless fitting that work fine. My main concern is trying to figure out how to set up a manual control panel that will monitor the temps in both vessels, the element in the bk, and the pump. But since I'm dealing with a 240v line for the element, 120v for the pump, and whatever the pid takes, and not a consistent 120v like the twentE system, nor have the complexity of Kal's system, I don't know how to figure it out. Check out both thier builds and see what I mean.

 

[Tiber_Brew]

Have you browsed through my build? (link in my sig)

I use 3 kegs instead of 2, but there might be some useful information and/or similarities to what you want to build.

TB

 

[Spartan1979]

Have you read this thread?

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f170/simple-eherms-following-pjs-diagram-w-only-1-pid-221403/

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

If you have 240V available, go for it.

But, if that is holding you back, you might want to look at 2000 watt 120V heatsticks. I brew with two of them, and regularly do 10+ gallon batches.

I do use a three vessel setup on a wooden stand.

 

[Walker]

Thanks, but adding a 3rd keg is what I'm trying to avoid. It adds demand for space, equipment and complexity. Also, I'm trying to stay with reusing the equipment I already have. I already have a keg bk and mlt with weldless fitting that work fine. My main concern is trying to figure out how to set up a manual control panel that will monitor the temps in both vessels, the element in the bk, and the pump. But since I'm dealing with a 240v line for the element, 120v for the pump, and whatever the pid takes, and not a consistent 120v like the twentE system, nor have the complexity of Kal's system, I don't know how to figure it out. Check out both thier builds and see what I mean.

You can get away with a brutus "no sparge" type system, but that will require a multi-tiered stand (or a second pump).

All of your water goes into the BK and the MLT at the start of the brew. One element in the BK. MLT gravity feeds into BK and BK is pumped back up and into the MLT.

You can simply monitor the temp of the liquid in the BK and add heat if that temp is too low. You are constantly circulating liquid (MLT->BK->MLT) so if you montor and maintain the temp of that liquid in the BK, then you can do it. One pump. One element. Two vessels.

 

[cwi]

Thanks, but adding a 3rd keg is what I'm trying to avoid. It adds demand for space, equipment and complexity.

Most of the automation that is making your head spin is not necessary. A lot of the guys do it because they are tinkerers, and find it enjoyable.

As Walker touched on, some missing info is your preferred brew method- sparge style (no, batch, fly); are you pro-gravity or anti-gravity; RIMS or HERMS preference. Locking those in will dictate what choices come next.

Regarding 2 vs. 3 vessels- As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Assuming you plan to sparge, going from 2 to 3 vessels adds equipment, but can reduce brew day complexity. Read the other way, going from 3 to 2 vessels will increase brew day complexity. This logic applies to most everything on a brew rig- hoses, pumps, valves, etc. If you are going to sparge, you will need a vessel to hold the sparge water in, even if only temporarily. Unless space is a severly limiting factor, adding a 3rd vessel, and a 2nd pump, will simplify your brew day.

As for keeping automation complexity down, the biggest ROI will be pump(s) and PID controller(s) for your HERMS tank and BK heat elements. For the BK you will need one that has manual % duty cycle control for maintaining/controlling boils- setting the temp to 212F will not work.

Unless you are into looks, you don't really need a fancy control panel. Even if you are into looks, you may want to build a prototype first. A few cheap temp probes for monitoring will do, and some plain old switches for the pump(s).

Touch screen PLCs for sequencing electric valves, pumps, and such is getting into overkill, but fun for those that enjoy building as much or more than brewing.

 

[Mindar76]

Most of the automation that is making your head spin is not necessary. A lot of the guys do it because they are tinkerers, and find it enjoyable.

not just tinkerers, but mad tinkerers. But, tinker away good sirs!

As Walker touched on, some missing info is your preferred brew method- sparge style (no, batch, fly); are you pro-gravity or anti-gravity; RIMS or HERMS preference. Locking those in will dictate what choices come next.

As per Boerderij Kabouter's Simple Brewery/TwentE design, it's a single tier, continuous/no sparge system. (I'll probably get a grant (read; big pot I used when I made smaller batches) and batch sparge from there) Gravity is an issue, as my 1930s home has only about 6.5 ft clearence. I'm going HERMS, again as according to BK's Simple design.

Regarding 2 vs. 3 vessels- As they say, there is no such thing as a free lunch. Assuming you plan to sparge, going from 2 to 3 vessels adds equipment, but can reduce brew day complexity. Read the other way, going from 3 to 2 vessels will increase brew day complexity.... Unless space is a severly limiting factor, adding a 3rd vessel, and a 2nd pump, will simplify your brew day.

Yes, a 3rd vessel simplifies the brew process, but it complicates the electricity end, and thus the safe wiring thereof. The brew process I understand, the electricity, not so much.

I'm not looking for fancy, I'm looking for functional. Single tier, single pump, single element.

A quick run-down of BK's Simple/twentE is:
1) fill bk/hlt with total volume of water needed,
2) raise to strike temp, transfer water to tun,
5) mash in,
6) regulate temp through HERMS coil (the hex will be my old immersion chiller attached to the kettle lid) submerged in the remaining water in the bk/hlt,
7) raise temp to sparge temp, sparge (or not,)
8) boil in kettle, clean grains from tun,
9) fill tun with ice & water, run chilled water through coils to pitching temp, transfer to conical,
10) transfer water back to kettle, raise to cleaning temp, add chemicals, run through everything, and Bob's your uncle.

Again, I can figure out the brewing process side, it's the wiring and not killing myself that's the prob.

Thanks for the advice though. I appreciate it.

 

[cwi]

Without knowing exactly what your mash-up of the two systems looks like, it is hard to give specifics. I would only suggest taking brew day complexity into consideration while you are reducing equipment complexity. Of course, you can always add more later. Just watch out for permanent things, like extra holes in your kettles/lids.

In the interest of full disclosure- Equipment reduction is a game I don't understand the rules to. In building my system, I focus on reducing the stress, gyrations, and potential screw-ups on brew day. That usually means more, of everything.

These are a few of the suggestions I have based on what you have posted-

Have you looked at the electric heat stick design for using the water heater elements? It is possible to move it from vessel to vessel. Since only one pot is being heated at a time for a single batch brew day, you can do 3 (or more) vessels by only adding a vessel. Also, less holes in your vessels, and easier cleaning/replacement.

The third vessel is only needed for sparging, if you are not sparging, you don't need it. Or, if you are going to use a sparge grant, that is your third vessel. You can even manually fly sparge if you want.

I didn't know BK's was a "no sparge" system, I only glanced over it a while ago. You are going to do full volume mashes ala Aussie BIAB, but without the bag? No sparge just uses a bit more grain, and a bigger tun for the same size batch. The quality of the wort should actually be better doing a true no sparge / no bag.

You could use the pot you want to use for a sparge grant as the HEX vessel (using a heat stick). Smallish HEX vessels are easier to add/remove heat from for stepping, as long as it provides enough thermal mass for buffering. If it is big enough for your sparge, it would even save you the step of dumping to a sparge grant.

Temp probes, everywhere. JK. One before and after the HEX is key. In the MLT is not necessary, but if you want it, a probe in a portable temp well stuck in the mash is better than another hole and probe permanently sticking into the tun. One more, or reusing the temp well to double check the PID controllers reading is nice as well- sensors do go bad, you know. The mash temp well thermo could also be reused in the BK.

Single vs. 2 pump- Impossible to sterilize the pump with boiling wort before transferring to fermenter, because you have to use it for recircing chill water. Also, more hose changes, or valves. Impossible to fly sparge with one pump and no gravity, unless you manually top off a pitcher at a time.

Also, the March pumps with the horizontal input/outputs are terrible. They make the same size with a center inlet, or better yet, get a bigger one (which only come in the center inlet style, because the other way is stupid).

Don't mount the pump motor vertically. I saw one system like that. It may have been one of the ones you looked at. It causes premature wear of the thrust washer, and early pump head failure. The march pumps are meant to be mounted horizontally. I saw a different opinion from someone on HBT, but I think the latest from the March pump guy was horizontal only. You can angle the outlet hose anyway you want, but the body itself needs to be horizontal.

MLT as chiller bath- requires cleaning the MLT while the boil is happening. Why not use an old cooler? You could also spring for a ~$20 submersible pond pump to recirc with, so your wort transfer pump remains sterile. Also easier to plumb, since there really isn't any. No priming either.

You probably don't want to use ice for the entire chill process, unless your uncle owns an ice plant. It would use a lot, when tap water is just as effective for the initial chilling down to ~100F or so. Below that is when the ice comes in handy. You can also direct the initial exiting tap chill water to a vessel (a 3rd?). It will be 150+F for the first few minutes.

Cleaning- At the homebrew level, I don't believe in CIP of hard plumbed rigs. Most of the guys who attempt it either find stagnant collection areas, or when they disassemble it for some reason, are shocked at the sight of it. Using a pump to recirc some cleaner through is one thing, but all that hard plumbing is another.

Are you using a new/uncut keg for the MLT? Some guys are building MLTs using an upside down keg and the coupler/fitting as a pre-built center drain. There are a few guys that have done it various ways, and a few others who have different designs posted.

 

[cwi]

After reading through again- the noise level is pretty high in this thread, me being part of it- I see you are mostly needing help with the control panel and wiring. (Although I think I have some good info to consider in my previous post.) You also seem to be making some design decisions based on solely on your current lack of electrical knowledge. That will not get you an optimal design. Starting with what you want, then, when you see the total price, paring it down to what you need, makes more sense. You will be able to get help with the wiring easily enough.

If you state what you want your control panel to do/look like, it would help.

The main player will be the PID controller(s). Have you looked at them? They are their own control panel, in a sense. Just mount it to anything, plywood even, although metal can be safer since it can be grounded. Your beer won't care what it looks like. Buy a few temp monitors with remote probes for as cheap as $5 each (chinese, of course), and stick them on a board in some sensible pattern with labels.

You can turn the pump(s) on and off with light switches mounted wherever makes sense.

You can have 240V and 120V service on the rig. Separate circuits/breakers is best, but you can do it with one 240V (4 wire) outlet, and split out a 120V circuit at the rig. You will need to run/have a 240V outlet near your brewing location, and plug into it with the big dryer type plugs. I guess you could hard wire it also, but I wouldn't.

On control panels, most of the fancy rotary switches, lights, buttons, gizmos, etc. are for show. The central cutoff all have is not for show, and should be considered mandatory.