Therminator or equivalent

[surreal_trip]

Whats the deal... do these work?? are they really helpful??? can i get a plus minus on these suckers... I've done plenty of research but you guys can't seem to get your story straight!

 

[wyzazz]

Yes they work, the plate chillers that we use for brewing are really just smaller versions of what the big boys use.

Some are worried about cleaning them but I've yet to have a problem with mine.

 

[Simphoto02]

Yes they work, the plate chillers that we use for brewing are really just smaller versions of what the big boys use.

Some are worried about cleaning them but I've yet to have a problem with mine.

I agree. I was terrified about keeping my Therminator clean. They are not the easiest thing to clean especially if you have a bunch of post boil crap. Constant flushing through the Hot side back and forth from one fitting to the other gets the crud out eventually.

Maybe a dozen or so batches through mine and no problems. Just follow the directions on cleaning and you should be Okay. besides the cool like a Mutha.

 

[billymeter]

Here's a video of a guy on YouTube who got a plate chiller for $82 shipped. It has more plates than the Shirron but less than the Therminator. Maybe worth checking out.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I just ordered a 30 plate from KC. That "5 minutes to 68*F or so" thing convinced me.

Though, now I need a pump, QD's, hoses, fittings...

 

[surreal_trip]

do you really need a pump and all the rest of the stuff?

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

do you really need a pump and all the rest of the stuff?

No, you don't have to have it. Well, you needs hoses and connectors.

You can use gravity instead of a pump for the wort, and use a garden hose connected to the tap for cooling water.

The pump for the wort, a submersible pump for ice water, and quick disconnects just make it work better, or easier to use.

 

[sudbuster]

Whats the deal... do these work?? are they really helpful??? can i get a plus minus on these suckers... I've done plenty of research but you guys can't seem to get your story straight!

Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions... Using a plate chiller is ok if you like doubling your clean up time and dropping the coins. I speak from experience. I have a Therminator. I backflush like hell, then drop it into a pressure cooker, then bag it to make sure it's ready for the next brew. Often i have to back flush before i can finish the cool down. In a word, it's a PITA.

 

[HickoryMike]

Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions... Using a plate chiller is ok if you like doubling your clean up time and dropping the coins. I speak from experience. I have a Therminator. I backflush like hell, then drop it into a pressure cooker, then bag it to make sure it's ready for the next brew. Often i have to back flush before i can finish the cool down. In a word, it's a PITA.

I would be curious to hear how you are filtering out your hops. Those that use a good hop bag don't seem to have the same problems you're describing.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions... Using a plate chiller is ok if you like doubling your clean up time and dropping the coins. I speak from experience. I have a Therminator. I backflush like hell, then drop it into a pressure cooker, then bag it to make sure it's ready for the next brew. Often i have to back flush before i can finish the cool down. In a word, it's a PITA.

Have you ever had any infections traceable to your plate chiller?

 

[lamarguy]

Have you ever had any infections traceable to your plate chiller?

I see this question pop up a lot. Besides plating samples from your equipment, how would someone trace an infection at the homebrew level? And, who is going to the trouble of [accurately] plating, incubating, and reading samples? :cross:

If you want to know the true infection rate for a plate chiller, ask a professional brewer. They all use some form of plate chiller. Which, after reading this thread, means they MUST produce a lot of infected beer since plate chillers are so difficult to clean.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

I love mine except for the times I forget to use a hop bag! I also use a hopblocker with mine and that and a hop bag = no issues at all. I also really don’t find it that hard to clean. Once I am done with the wort I then clean out my kettle then put some clean water in it and run that through the chiller into a bucked and discard just to get the junk out. Then I cycle some leftover sanitizer while I am doing the rest of my cleaning and the last step after I take everything apart is to just hook up the back flush hose to my sink and back flush the therminator before putting it away, flushing from both the in and outlet. Then when I want to use it again I back flush it on brew day then cycle my boiling wort for about the last 15-20 minutes. Never had any issues doing it this way. But forgetting to use a hop sock is a completely different story! I takes some time to get your cleaning regiment down but once you do it will flow with the rest or you cleaning duties.

 

[Stuntman]

Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions... Using a plate chiller is ok if you like doubling your clean up time and dropping the coins. I speak from experience. I have a Therminator. I backflush like hell, then drop it into a pressure cooker, then bag it to make sure it's ready for the next brew. Often i have to back flush before i can finish the cool down. In a word, it's a PITA.

Thanks Suds, I am building a brew tree. You convinced me on the Counterflow. It doesn't look as nice as a Plate Chiller, and takes up more room, but I want painless brewing.

Not to hijack the thread, but I feel that this needs to be asked....does the Counterflow do as well bringing down the temps as a Plate Chiller?

 

[wyzazz]

....does the Counterflow do as well bringing down the temps as a Plate Chiller?

Nope, Plate Frame Heat Exchangers are the most efficient chillers on the market, that's why pro-brewers use them. The CounterFlow chillers are the next best thing though.

 

[Captain_Bigelow]

I had a 40 plate chiller from eBay. I couldn't get below 80 even with a slow trickle and 30+ minutes. I then went to a 25ft CFC and finally a 50ft 1/2" IC with whirlpool.

Out of all the methods I tried, the 50ft IC with whirlpooling through a pump (aka Jamil's wort chiller) works the best. I get the whole batch below 140 within about 3 minutes and get to pitching temperatures in less than 15 minutes. The own drawback is the size and storage.

The key to a CFC or plate chiller is to get the coolant water as cold as possible. So you will probably need to use ice water and a pre-chiller in the summer.

 

[lamarguy]

I had a 40 plate chiller from eBay. I couldn't get below 80 even with a slow trickle and 30+ minutes.

A couple of things to note:

• Plate chillers use turbulence (via the stamped ripple plates) to increase efficiency. Flowing less than 0.5 gal/min is counterproductive.
• You water must have been in the mid 70s, assuming a 5F differential.
• Using a pre-chiller is effective but a post-chiller is more efficient with the same amount of ice water.

 

[kcinpdx]

My concern with a plate chiller is the same thing I have been experiencing with my CFC. Hop flavor and aroma seem to be taking a hit. Even though it cools relatively quickly, most of the wort remains at high temperatures into it passes through the chiller. This leaves the late hop additions exposed to the wort for a much longer time. I am considering going back to an immersion chiller for this reason.

 

[Simphoto02]

The thing about plate chillers is that most people make the mistake of both the wort and cooling water flows being to high of a rate. For the plate chiller to effective it needs to take full advantage of the surface area and contact time to achieve the heat transfer. Slow the cooling water speed down and give it a chance to actually pull the heat out of te wort. Running either or both too fast does not give it the time and opportunity to do what the physics wants to do.

 

[Stuntman]

I had a 40 plate chiller from eBay. I couldn't get below 80 even with a slow trickle and 30+ minutes. I then went to a 25ft CFC and finally a 50ft 1/2" IC with whirlpool.

Out of all the methods I tried, the 50ft IC with whirlpooling through a pump (aka Jamil's wort chiller) works the best. I get the whole batch below 140 within about 3 minutes and get to pitching temperatures in less than 15 minutes. The own drawback is the size and storage.

The key to a CFC or plate chiller is to get the coolant water as cold as possible. So you will probably need to use ice water and a pre-chiller in the summer.

Now I have changed my mind, because this article makes perfect since to me. I read this link and I can build that so easy. Whole batch needs to be cooled IMO now that I understand it. I have been kicking around what to do, I have a IC. I am going to do this "Whirlpool Immersion Chiller" method.

http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

 

[Captain_Bigelow]

Now I have changed my mind, because this article makes perfect since to me. I read this link and I can build that so easy. Whole batch needs to be cooled IMO now that I understand it. I have been kicking around what to do, I have a IC. I am going to do this "Whirlpool Immersion Chiller" method.

http://www.mrmalty.com/chiller.php

I did some tests on this whirlpooling method a few weeks back.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/ic-v-ic-whirl-pooling-192012/

 

[BrewMoreBeers]

My Plate chiller is the best. I can cool a five gallon batch from boil to sixty degrees in about five minutes. Way faster than anything else i have tried. I push ice water thru the chiller with a small pond pump.

Cleaning is easy. I always brew with a five gallon bucket of PBW and sanstar standing by. While i boil I pre-clean my chiller by using a pond pump to push pbw thru is for 15 minutes and then starsan for five. then back flush with the same method after I am done chilling the batch. the pump does all the work while i clean everything else. Easy, fast, efficient and it uses less than three gallons of water and fifteen pounds of ice to chill five gallons.

I made a manifold with QD connections to facilitate use and cleaning and i use a ball valve on the ice water side to restrict flow if needed... I do not always want to chill all the way to sixty degrees.

I bought the plate chiller because it is fast and efficient. I did not want to spend thirty minutes with an IC or deal with storing a bulky CFC.

 

[StoutForBreakfast]

The thing about plate chillers is that most people make the mistake of both the wort and cooling water flows being to high of a rate. For the plate chiller to effective it needs to take full advantage of the surface area and contact time to achieve the heat transfer. Slow the cooling water speed down and give it a chance to actually pull the heat out of te wort. Running either or both too fast does not give it the time and opportunity to do what the physics wants to do.

There is no performance-related reason to run the cooling water slower (for IC, CFC, or Plate). The only reason to slow the cooling water is if you are "water conscious" and don't want to use/waste as much. The hot wort should be throttled so that it exits at the correct temperature.

 

[kcinpdx]

There is no performance-related reason to run the cooling water slower (for IC, CFC, or Plate). The only reason to slow the cooling water is if you are "water conscious" and don't want to use/waste as much. The hot wort should be throttled so that it exits at the correct temperature.

I've always been curious about this. My thought was the same - the speed of water flow should not really matter, but I know very little about thermodynamics, if thermodynamics even applies here!

 

[StoutForBreakfast]

Well, thermodynamics doesn't really apply, but heat transfer certainly does. In a plate chiller (or CFC) you have 3 stages of heat transfer going on.

The first is convection from the hot wort to the copper in the HEX. The second is conduction through the copper. The third is convection to the cold water.

I don't remember the exact equations, but....

The conduction rate is directly related to the temperature difference between the opposite sides of the copper (hot wort and cold water). The material (copper) and dimensions of HEX are also variables, but not ones that we can change.

The convection is directly related to the difference in the temp of the copper and the temp of the fluid, as well as the speed of the fluid. Again, HEX dimensions are variables that don't change.

Laminar (slow) flow has a much smaller heat transfer coefficient than does Turbulent (fast) flow. This means that the faster you run your fluids, the faster the heat gets transferred.

Since the only thing we/you can control is the flow rate, that is our only means of controlling the cooling of the wort. Setting your cooling water on high flow will give you the best heat transfer, but you probably want to strike a balance between fast cooling and wasting water. Your wort flow should be set at a speed that lets it exit at the right temp (below 80F). In theory, it shouldn't matter whether you have turbulent flow in the wort since it is a closed system, unexposed to air.

BTW, plate CF HEX's are great. I got the $75 one from DudaDiesel and had 10 gals cooled to 70F in about 15 min. I am water conscious. Could have gone faster, but 15 min is plenty fast and why waste the water? I can't imagine the $200 blichman would be any better. The only concern is whether I will get cancer from the DudaDiessel one. It says Stainless steel and 99.9% copper brazing material. Fingers crossed.

 

[BrewMoreBeers]

My bilchman does five gallons of boil to sixty degrees in five min... I use ice water rather than tap water, so i only " waste" three gallons of water and 15 pounds of ice. The time is well worth the cost to me.

I throttle the cold water to control the final temp and get good success. I can cool to whatever final temp I want b/w 60 & 80 degrees in 5 min.

Ten gallon batches will need more ice than I use... I melt it all on my runs.

 

[SankePankey]

From my understanding speaking to the Dudadiesel people, the faster the chill water the better. It takes the heat up and on outa dere. The wort should be slow enough to get the desired exit temp, so slow enough to transmit as much heat as needed before exiting.

One thing I don't see many people recommending (hardly):
If the showdown is plate chiller vs. jamil-o-pool IC, then why not a Jamil-o-plate. Why not recirculate the output of the plate chiller back into the kettle. I hear a 'flaw' of the plate chiller is that the majority of the wort stays at boiling temp too long. Problem solved.

I guess it has something to do with hop blockage, but if you are confident in your screening, then why not. Seems like even better than going straight into the fermenter since you'll leave all the trub/break behind... which seems to be the other argument against plate chillers.

EDIT: And you can just use a hose clamp on your line to slow things down. I would hate to have to take apart a ball valve every time I brew just for that purpose. It's the reason I bought a butterfly valve for my boil kettle.

 

[zymurgy101]

I went from IC to the Blichmann Plate Chiller and love it. As mentioned above and in the instructions, you do need to control both wort and cooling water flow rates to achieve maximum cooling. I put a garden hose nozzle on the end of the hose connected to the Water Out of the chiller and make my adjustments in flow rate there...makes it easy. Since I am on a well, I do not have a need to use an ice bath even in the hottest of summer days (100F). Whew...those were hot brew days!! I have not timed how long it takes to cool ten gallons; but at a decent flow rate, I'm pulling down to 72F on hot days.

My cleaning procedure closely follows the same as BrewMoreBeer (above). For me, it is not nearly the PITA that some describe...just my opinion.

 

[Catt22]

One thing I don't see many people recommending (hardly):
If the showdown is plate chiller vs. jamil-o-pool IC, then why not a Jamil-o-plate. Why not recirculate the output of the plate chiller back into the kettle. I hear a 'flaw' of the plate chiller is that the majority of the wort stays at boiling temp too long. Problem solved.

I guess it has something to do with hop blockage, but if you are confident in your screening, then why not. Seems like even better than going straight into the fermenter since you'll leave all the trub/break behind... which seems to be the other argument against plate chillers.

I use a CFC and pump the wort back to the kettle as you described. This works very well for me. One thing I've learned about this procedure is that to be effective you definitely need to screen out the hops while at the same time maintaining a high flow rate. This is often much easier said than done.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Yeah, you can ask two brewer a question, and get five different opinions... Using a plate chiller is ok if you like doubling your clean up time and dropping the coins. I speak from experience. I have a Therminator. I backflush like hell, then drop it into a pressure cooker, then bag it to make sure it's ready for the next brew. Often i have to back flush before i can finish the cool down. In a word, it's a PITA.

Acid brother. Work smarter. Not harder.

 

[SankePankey]

need to screen out the hops while at the same time maintaining a high flow rate.

If you necessitate a strong whirlpool. I do not, I just want to recirculate. My drain is at the bottom center, so a strong whirlpool is not so beneficial.

The slower the wort flows through the chiller the closer to chill water temp it will get. I'm sure there is a point at which the slower flow doesn't chill enough wort in recirculation that it would work in the opposite direction re: chilling efficiency.

Any mathematicians out there?

Here are stats for the 30 plate dudadiesel that I'm considering (for 15 gal).

178* Wort - 1 GPM
68* Chill water - 1 GPM
Wort out = 99* Chillwater out = 145*

Same variables but both at 10 GPM
Wort out = 108* Chillwater out = 136*


I'm guessing if I put them both at 5 GPM, I'll get enough volume of chilled recirculation to get there the fastest.