The Value of a Starter

[danmdevries]

I'm fairly new, I've done about a dozen batches since starting and I've always come up slightly short of FG.

I initially attributed this to the basic extract brew process of diluting a concentrated wort.

I changed to full boil and no change.

I thought maybe it was my water. Brewed a batch straight from the well and another of the same through the softener. Without a grain mash, I'd assume softener water is fine.

The two batches pictured below are fairly similar.

One is an attempt at a blue moon extract clone 5 lbs Extra Light DME, 2½ lbs Orange Blossom Honey were the fermentables. I used three packs of Wyeast Belgian Abbey Ale yeast. I bought two for 10g of another I was planning to make and never did, picked up a third for this beer and realized I already had some so I smacked all three, they all swelled up and I pitched them.

The other is an IPA with 1 lb Light DME and 7 lbs Light LME. By weight nearly equal amounts of fermentables. Not sure how the honey plays vs DME/LME.

Regardless despite three fully swelled packs of Wyeast in the first (on the right) the yeast cake is marginal and I'm slightly above anticipated FG. The carboy on the left received one pack of dry safale US-05 yeast rehydrated and pitched into 500ml with 1c Extra Light DME at 68 degrees for 24 hours. I pitched the whole thing.

The size difference in the yeast cakes is incredible. Best part is for the first time I've met my FG estimate.

I'll be making a starter from now on.

 

[DynamechGT]

Interesting.

I just used a Wyeast smack pack for my first brew.

Looks like I'll have to try a starter next time.

 

[Lucky_Chicken]

something else to note is the dry yeast has more viable yeast per pack than the liquid to begin with. I would have to look at my notes at home to see how much more, but dry dosent usually require a starter (enough viable yeast in one pack for 5 gallons) and liquids do require a starter. On the dry the manufacturers do generally recomend rehydrating them, but I never do and hit my FG numbers.

On another note I use mostly dry yeasts for ease of storage and flexability on timeline (I dont have to make a starter X days ahead of brewing)

 

[solbes]

+1000 on making starters for liquid yeast, they do make a difference.

Also make sure you are getting enough oxygen into the wort. I just do the shake rattle and roll method for 2-3 minutes until it's really foamy, ~ 8 ppm. Pure oxygen can add more for bigger beers and lagers.

And maybe get some yeast nutrient. I use the recommended amount of Wyeast yeast nutrient in every boil. I've always hit my FG's or gone below.

 

[Buna_Bere]

Cool pic. I heard Chis White from White Labs say a 500ml starter won't really get you too much yeast growth, he recommended 2 liters.

 

[dest149]

I made a 500 mL starter that only had 24 hrs of replication time, and another 24 hrs in the fridge. I pitched it and I had a fast bubbling airlock showing signs of active fermentation in 10-12 hours, I looked on the inside of the carboy and it looks like there is a pump churning all the wort constantly its just moving around quickly by itself. So my experience contradicts that. But, I am sure 2L would be even better.

 

[Lucky_Chicken]

So typicaly in a yeast package... yes different brands have different quantities... dry is 90% viable when it is packaged and has roughly 200 billion cells. Liquid is 97% viable when it is packaged and has roughly 100 billion cells. After 6 months dry is 81% viable and liquid is 23% viable.

So basically how old your dry is dosent make a big difference in your cell count but your liquid does and it has less to begin with, thus the need for a starter. The amount you need to pitch to get optimal fermentation depends on a lot of factors. I think what you are seeing is that the dry yeast had more viabale cells thus the more active fermentation. I doubt the 24 hour starter had much impact on cell count it probably just got your fermentation going quicker after you pitched it.

 

[dest149]

So typicaly in a yeast package... yes different brands have different quantities... dry is 90% viable when it is packaged and has roughly 200 billion cells. Liquid is 97% viable when it is packaged and has roughly 100 billion cells. After 6 months dry is 81% viable and liquid is 23% viable.

So basically how old your dry is dosent make a big difference in your cell count but your liquid does and it has less to begin with, thus the need for a starter. The amount you need to pitch to get optimal fermentation depends on a lot of factors. I think what you are seeing is that the dry yeast had more viabale cells thus the more active fermentation. I doubt the 24 hour starter had much impact on cell count it probably just got your fermentation going quicker after you pitched it.

My experience and current position in a medical laboratory leads me to disagree with you, however I will agree to disagree since it's really not a big deal, and I would have done a longer starter if I had the chance anyways. FYI yeast has a replication time line of about ~2 hrs, so yeah. Anyways, happy brewing, no worries.

 

[Buna_Bere]

Here's an interesting article I found online. It shows the effects of different size starters.

 

[dest149]

Here's an interesting article I found online. It shows the effects of different size starters.

Again, all I can say is agree to disagree. Several discrepancies for me is the nutrient amount, if you put 1/2 cup of LME and make it up to 500 mL it will have the same amount of LME as 1/2 cup made up to 1L. Another discrepancy is that I agitate mine pretty often (every 30 -40 minutes) which introduces more oxygen to the yeast, and redistributes all the sediment that progressively forms. Anyways, like I said earlier, I am not trying to start a big discussion over yeast, cause UNIcellular organisms with only 200 genes aren't worth it for me. You need at least a MULTIcellular organism with several thousand genes to get me interested . Happy Brewing. As long as you get good beer who cares how?

 

[Brewnicorn]

..if you put 1/2 cup of LME and make it up to 500 mL it will have the same amount of LME as 1/2 cup made up to 1L.

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what a 1L starter refers to. It is my understanding that a 1L starter should have more DME/LME (compared to a .5L starter) to compensate for the extra volume.

EDIT: In fact, in the article, they state that the gravity of each sample was 1.036, so, clearly, they are compensating for the volume in each starter.

 

[subliminalurge]

...

 

[dest149]

I could be wrong, but I don't think that's what a 1L starter refers to. It is my understanding that a 1L starter should have more DME/LME (compared to a .5L starter) to compensate for the extra volume.

EDIT: In fact, in the article, they state that the gravity of each sample was 1.036, so, clearly, they are compensating for the volume in each starter.

I am not trying to say you can get as many cells out of a 500mL starter as you do out of a 2L because obviously that is not the case, all I was trying to say is that you can make a 500mL starter, even if slightly modified that will suffice for brewing. 500mL starters have some upside if you don't have time to flocculate and are going to pitch the whole starter, so this way you have 1/4 of the "bad beer" going into your wort. I am really trying to be a good sport about this, it's really a non-issue for me. I'll be the big boy and say, hey you win.

 

[Brewnicorn]

I am not trying to say you can get as many cells out of a 500mL starter as you do out of a 2L because obviously that is not the case, all I was trying to say is that you can make a 500mL starter, even if slightly modified that will suffice for brewing. 500mL starters have some upside if you don't have time to flocculate and are going to pitch the whole starter, so this way you have 1/4 of the "bad beer" going into your wort. I am really trying to be a good sport about this, it's really a non-issue for me. I'll be the big boy and say, hey you win.

I wasn't the person you were debating with, so I didn't win anything.

I was just confused by your comment about using the same amount of malt extract in a 1L starter as you would in a .5L starter...

 

[dest149]

lol, oh well

 

[danmdevries]

I guess I didn't understand liquid vs dry yeasts.

I though smack packs were like a starter replacement since you get the process going prior to pitch. but thinking about it you're force starting anaerobic process which doesn't increase cell count prior to pitching.

I'll do a liquid yeast starter next time and see what happens. Got ingredients to brew this week if I find the time.

 

[dest149]

I guess I didn't understand liquid vs dry yeasts.

I though smack packs were like a starter replacement since you get the process going prior to pitch. but thinking about it you're force starting anaerobic process which doesn't increase cell count prior to pitching.

I'll do a liquid yeast starter next time and see what happens. Got ingredients to brew this week if I find the time.

I am not sure if that is absolutely correct. I could be wrong here, but to my knowledge the nutrient pouch is nutrient and oxygen rich which makes it an aerobic jump start, but yes, its just to awaken the yeast, and ensure their viability, and not so much to increase cell count due to lack of nutrients, and less than ideal conditions

 

[Buna_Bere]

you can make a 500mL starter, even if slightly modified that will suffice for brewing. 500mL starters have some upside if you don't have time to flocculate and are going to pitch the whole starter, so this way you have 1/4 of the "bad beer" going into your wort.

Sure you can make a 500ml starter that will "suffice",

Suf-fice (verb) 1. Be enough or adequate

, but if you want to make the best beer you can, which is the reason I'm sure many of us joined this forum, and probably the reason the OP shared his interesting pic with us, 2L is a much better choice.

If you grow your starter at the same controlled fermentation temps that you'll be using for your beer, then there's no reason to worry about flocculating it out, or "bad beer" being dumped in your wort. Dump it all in at high krausen, make the best beer you can.

 

[dest149]

Sure you can make a 500ml starter that will "suffice",

Suf-fice (verb) 1. Be enough or adequate

, but if you want to make the best beer you can, which is the reason I'm sure many of us joined this forum, and probably the reason the OP shared his interesting pic with us, 2L is a much better choice.

If you grow your starter at the same controlled fermentation temps that you'll be using for your beer, then there's no reason to worry about flocculating it out, or "bad beer" being dumped in your wort. Dump it all in at high krausen, make the best beer you can.

1. 2L is a lot of starter to dump into your wort, its "bad beer" because it doesn't have any of the aroma/bitterness, or flavor characteristics of the beer you are trying to make which is why its called "bad beer". All a starter is water and malt extract. So the best beer you can make is when you flocculate and decant.
2. You can't dump your starter in at high krausen like you say because krausen doesn't form until you pour the yeast in to begin with, so uhh yeah?
3. For the last time, just let it go, I am sure the OP has found enough info to make an informed decision. ITS ONLY YEAST. Seriously everyone has to relax.

P.S. - I do not need a vocabulary lesson from you. The fact that I used the word properly in a sentence illustrates that I know what it means.

 

[Brewnicorn]

2. You can't dump your starter in at high krausen like you say because krausen doesn't form until you pour the yeast in to begin with, so uhh yeah?

I believe he's referring to high krausen in the starter?

ITS ONLY YEAST

I find it incredibly odd that you keep saying this. This is a homebrewing forum. There are many threads about yeast (including this thread), and an entire forum dedicated to it. It's actually a pretty big deal around here.

It's also a bizarre thing to say because you chose to enter a conversation about yeast. If yeast are so lowly and you only care about "MULTIcellular organism with several thousand genes", why did you enter this discussion in the first place?

 

[Buna_Bere]

1. 2L is a lot of starter to dump into your wort, its "bad beer" because it doesn't have any of the aroma/bitterness, or flavor characteristics of the beer you are trying to make which is why its called "bad beer". All a starter is water and malt extract. So the best beer you can make is when you flocculate and decant.
2. You can't dump your starter in at high krausen like you say because krausen doesn't form until you pour the yeast in to begin with, so uhh yeah?
3. For the last time, just let it go, I am sure the OP has found enough info to make an informed decision. ITS ONLY YEAST. Seriously everyone has to relax.

P.S. - I do not need a vocabulary lesson from you. The fact that I used the word properly in a sentence illustrates that I know what it means.

1. You can make a starter with any wort you like, don't use DME if you don't want to.

2. Here's a quote from Palmers How to Brew
Chapter 6 - Yeast
6.6 When is My Starter Ready to Pitch
"A yeast starter is ready to pitch anytime after it has attained high krausen (full activity)"

3. Go pound some sand.

P.S. The point was the difference between adequate and the best, not a vocab lesson.

 

[dest149]

1. You can make a starter with any wort you like, don't use DME if you don't want to.

2. Here's a quote from Palmers How to Brew
Chapter 6 - Yeast
6.6 When is My Starter Ready to Pitch
"A yeast starter is ready to pitch anytime after it has attained high krausen (full activity)"

3. Go pound some sand.

P.S. The point was the difference between adequate and the best, not a vocab lesson.

I believe he's referring to high krausen in the starter?



I find it incredibly odd that you keep saying this. This is a homebrewing forum. There are many threads about yeast (including this thread), and an entire forum dedicated to it. It's actually a pretty big deal around here.

It's also a bizarre thing to say because you chose to enter a conversation about yeast. If yeast are so lowly and you only care about "MULTIcellular organism with several thousand genes", why did you enter this discussion in the first place?

The whole multicellular thing is sarcasm but okay. And an entire forum may be dedicated to it, but only to answer questions and find out new information about it. Not to bicker like little children about it. Yeast although an integral part of beer, is not worth bickering over because its ONLY BEER, which is my point. Go use this same energy to keep trying to argue with me and learn about whats happening in the world and do something productive. Thats why I have been trying to drop it for a while now, and just say hey, we both have different opinions/views and thats fine. As long as you make good beer who cares. So get over it.

Buna, I misunderstood what you meant about high krausen, I thought you meant high krausen in the wort and for that I apologize.
However I am not sure what you mean by pounding some sand. And as for the starter wort, again, it's the common thing to just use water and malt extract only, so it is the not advisable to pitch a common 2L wort.

As for the vocab, if you really want to play the technicality game with me, making a "suffice" starter does not in any way indicate that it is average. It indicates that it is meeting the requirements/demands at hand. So if the demands/requirements are to make the best beer possible, then XXX starter should suffice as a means to attain that goal.

Home Brewing is a great hobby and I love it as much as the next person, but if what you think is really important in life is yeast (I am looking at you Brewnicorn), or bickering with someone else who is trying to say hey lets just agree to disagree like mature people that enjoy a mutual hobby and ultimately want to achieve the same result (I am looking at you buna) then you really need to re-asses what it is you are doing with you life. Do everyone a favor and be a positive and helpful influence to others in this brewing community, and to the people in the real world around you. I realize we have different views and ways to go about things, and putting out the different options for others to make their own decision is great, but submit your opinions with respect, and try to bring something positive out of the equation, don't try and make this a put down contest and make yourself feel superior on an online forum, to counteract your feeling of inferiority in the real world. Maybe if you just were a little nicer, and less defensive about things you wouldn't be having these issues. I hope we can end this, and I would love to be friends, and I look forward to reading what you have to say in future threads and having a healthy discussion because I recognize and respect your opinion/thought process, but lets just leave this thread alone and call it quits. Happy brewing.

 

[DynamechGT]

Wow, really...?

I thought being anal and was what this whole forum thing was all about.

Instead, I'm finding myself sifting through whiny, pedantic, useless text.

Moral of the story: you'll get faster and likely, more complete, fermentation by making a starter

And besides, my mom makes a better starter than your mom.

 

[subliminalurge]

And besides, my mom makes a better starter than your mom.

Maybe...

But my juvenile delinquent can kick your honor student's ass!!! Twice!!!

The thing is that you're missing the whole point when you say "I thought being anal and was what this whole forum thing was all about."

That's only part of it. The other, equally important part, is letting people know when they can relax the butthole a little bit and just enjoy the hobby for what it is...

 

[Rooster5150]

I alway make a starter. It's just smart brewing. I rarely buy yeast anymore. Yeasts that I know I gonna use alot like an ale yeast. I take it off the yeast cake and actually wash it. Google "washing brewers yeast". I let it set in the fridge for a year and it was still good to go! But you don't have to wash it. Just put it in a sanatized mason jar and use it next time for your starter. Buying yeast is for suckers!