The Plinian Progeny Triple IPA

[FatCat11cz]

I am seriously considering buying this kit. Anyone else. 99 dollars @ NB. Same one brewed with Will Wheaton in their newest video. Supposedly 200+ IBUs !

 

[dpatrickv]

Im pretty sure that's supposed to be a pliny the younger clone.

Tempting but not for 100 bucks. Ill put it together myself if I really want it.

 

[BrewerBrad82]

I am also intrigued by this kit, but $100 did seem a little steep. I went to NBs website and looked up the recipe and built it a la carte. By piecing it out like that, the price came to $136 with one Wyeast smack pack.... $100 does not sound so bad now to me.

 

[dpatrickv]

I am also intrigued by this kit, but $100 did seem a little steep. I went to NBs website and looked up the recipe and built it a la carte. By piecing it out like that, the price came to $136 with one Wyeast smack pack.... $100 does not sound so bad now to me.

Its not terribly priced.



Unless you have most of it at home. Thank you bulk pricing.

 

[m00ps]

You know that 200IBUs doesnt really do anything for you, right? Supposedly the bitterness perception threshold maxes out at around 100 for most people. Youd be better off cramming in more flameout, hopstand, and dry hop additions to really get hop flavor

 

[signpost]

Hey, the all-grain kit is $3 cheaper. That might be enough to convince me.

 

[BlueHouseBrewhaus]

I agree with m00ps. You're just throwing money away on hops. Anything over 100 IBU is a waste. Just get up to 100 and then go with a big hop stand and big dry hops.

 

[olotti]

What hops and hop schedule do they use for this. Must be atleast a pound if not more for 200ibus which frankly seems excessive considering the points made above about Ibu perception and taste on the human palate. Not to mention $100 for a kit.

*edit* I had to look it up. 3 hop shots wow and 19ozs of hops seems like it's supposed to be a Pliny the younger but maybe their making their own version I don't know. Still 92$ seems extreme even for the grains. But hey if ha have the money why not try it just don't buy 05 as the yeast. Use a San Diego super like 090 and make a stepped starter and use a hop sack I don't agree with what they say about utilization not being adequate your prob getting most of the battering from the 3 hop shots anyway.

 

[AK7007]

You know that 200IBUs doesnt really do anything for you, right? Supposedly the bitterness perception threshold maxes out at around 100 for most people. Youd be better off cramming in more flameout, hopstand, and dry hop additions to really get hop flavor

What's more, solubility of iso-AAs tops out in labs in the ~100ppm (IBU=ppm) range. You are unlikely to ever actually get all off the theoretical 200ppm AAs dissolved in the wort. Having that huge amount of hops will contribute flavor though! Combine that with the triple dry hop that younger gets (IDK what this NB kit tells you to do, but that's what RR does) - and all those hops do make a difference, even if they are "wasted" in a bitterness sense.

I'm actually curious as to what effect maxing out the dissolved iso-AAs in the wort at the start of the boil with hop shots does to the late hop additions in terms of what compounds are extracted. I feel a double IPA experiment coming on.

 

[brewfun]

I'm actually curious as to what effect maxing out the dissolved iso-AAs in the wort at the start of the boil with hop shots does to the late hop additions in terms of what compounds are extracted. I feel a double IPA experiment coming on.

Once the 100 IBU saturation point is reached, just as many isomers are being destroyed as are being created. The "broken" isomers begin to bond with wort sugars and melanoidins, rather than just precipitate (though a lot of them do bond to proteins and polyphenols, then precipitate in trub).

The magic happens in fermentation as yeast can break these bonds through glycolysis and the result is amplified hop flavors that may or may not resemble the original hop type. Not all yeast are equal, though. Some perform glycolysis favorably for IPA, while others may not have the ability.

So, the trick is to reach 100 IBU as quickly as possible. Isomerization is fastest in the first 20 to 30 minutes of an addition. This may as well be with an extract, like the Hop Shot, saving room for more hop material later in the boil and whirlpool. No sense in losing wort to hops just for bittering.

 

[AK7007]

Once the 100 IBU saturation point is reached, just as many isomers are being destroyed as are being created. The "broken" isomers begin to bond with wort sugars and melanoidins, rather than just precipitate (though a lot of them do bond to proteins and polyphenols, then precipitate in trub).

The magic happens in fermentation as yeast can break these bonds through glycolysis and the result is amplified hop flavors that may or may not resemble the original hop type. Not all yeast are equal, though. Some perform glycolysis favorably for IPA, while others may not have the ability.

So, the trick is to reach 100 IBU as quickly as possible. Isomerization is fastest in the first 20 to 30 minutes of an addition. This may as well be with an extract, like the Hop Shot, saving room for more hop material later in the boil and whirlpool. No sense in losing wort to hops just for bittering.

I was thinking something along those lines, that there was some sort of trub precipitation/crazy sugar caramelization, but was too lazy to do the reading - thanks! I already have some experience with strains that I like for biomodification of hop glycosides (WLP644, Conan, WY1318) - but haven't played around with maxing out hop charges early and then another large whirlpool addition. I'm generally curious as to the taste difference between that approach and my current tiny initial charge to help with foaming, and getting ~100 IBU from the whirlpool. (~7oz of ~12.5%AA hops per 5 gal, but depends on what I'm trying to do)

 

[m00ps]

wait, 7oz of high alpha hops in the whirlpool can net you 100IBUs alone? That doesnt seem right....the last few IPAs I've made have had more than 7oz in a hopstand and they drink like cool-aid. Very little perceptible bitterness

 

[AK7007]

wait, 7oz of high alpha hops in the whirlpool can net you 100IBUs alone? That doesnt seem right....the last few IPAs I've made have had more than 7oz in a hopstand and they drink like cool-aid. Very little perceptible bitterness

That's because IBU is a bull**** unit of measure. It's expressed as ppm of iso-alpha acids in suspension, not any kind of bitterness. So, I'm fairly confident that I get there, (we have a spec and the right kind of octane for the crude extraction in my lab) but it's not actually bitter.

The question I have is what the flavor effect will be from maxing out the IBUs at FWH and then still doing my big hop stand - will the hop stand alpha acids just kinda do nothing? Will the FWH iso-alpha acids drop out of suspension? I know they won't be additive, but will have some sort of interaction.

 

[TheMerkle]

I'm of the camp that the recipe could and should be rewritten for ~110 IBU and pieced out a la carte.

 

[brewfun]

That's because IBU is a bull**** unit of measure. It's expressed as ppm of iso-alpha acids in suspension, not any kind of bitterness. So, I'm fairly confident that I get there, (we have a spec and the right kind of octane for the crude extraction in my lab) but it's not actually bitter.

True! The IBU level has only a handshake association with bitterness perception. It appears that the percentage of CoHumulone and AdHumulone Change the way we perceive coarseness and persistence in the bitterness. So, 100 IBU of Horizon or Warrior will be a little bitter, but seem to fall off quickly. Yet, 50 IBU of Chinook or Nugget will be with you for ages.

The question I have is what the flavor effect will be from maxing out the IBUs at FWH and then still doing my big hop stand - will the hop stand alpha acids just kinda do nothing? Will the FWH iso-alpha acids drop out of suspension? I know they won't be additive, but will have some sort of interaction.

They will be additive at first. With a late hop charge, you can measure over 100 IBU for a short while, then it falls.

Most isomerization happens in the first 15 to 20 minutes, then the curve flattens out. So, if your hop stand is 30 minutes, you can saturate the same IBU as a smaller 60 minute kettle charge.

However, it's been my experience that the 60 minute charge tastes better and lasts longer in the finished beer. There's no supporting science I know of for that, but it seems to bear out in a lot of commercial examples, too.

One of the reasons for this may lie with the fact that the CoHumulone and AdHumulone portions tend to isomerize faster than the rest. They also tend to reduce first both in the boil and post fermentation.

Just a WAG, but you might like the hopstand version better at first, but the boil charge version will have more stable bitterness and hop flavor overall. Especially a month or so out. Hop aroma will probably reduce about the same for both.

 

[AK7007]

Just a WAG, but you might like the hopstand version better at first, but the boil charge version will have more stable bitterness and hop flavor overall. Especially a month or so out. Hop aroma will probably reduce about the same for both.

It's an interesting thing though, because the beers that end up coveted, like Younger and Topper use both, and still need to be fresh for that massive hop stand.