Belgian Dark Strong Ale The Pious - Westvleteren 12 style quad - multiple

[ruger988]

Recently I took drastic measures when my slurry of Westmalle yeast showed no signs of activity after more than 24 hours. I made a 2 quart starter of WY3711 and pitched into the 4.5 gallons of 1.095 wort. (The only yeast I had available). 5 days later it's at 1.009.

My point being using another yeast may be more effective in getting the gravity down. Whether the flavor profile will be what you are seeking is another question.

My question was more of a "as a general practice" question. Thanks for the input though!

 

[jlamato]

This is a treatable stall in gravity. In most instances it is due to yeast exhaustion.

With a high ABV and oxygen depletion re-pitching using a super-oxygenated yeast will work. You can use Champagne yeast packets. For 5 gallons at 1.022 I would suggest 3 packets or about 280-300 billion cells. Alternatively you can make another Westmalle starter of about 300 billion cells. Prior to pitching or creaming the dry yeast make sure and oxygenate it with pure O2 for about 60 seconds, let it sit for at least 6 hours for the yeast to absorb the oxygen, then pitch the entire amount. In about 6-10 days your gravity will come down.

I really can't thank you enough for all the help you have given me. I'll go out and get another vial of the WLP 530 and make a starter, just to be sure. I don't have an aeration kit though, and from the looks of it the stirplate + vigorous shake before pitching to the fermentor won't be enough to do the trick. Sounds like I'm gonna need to buy me an aeration system. This is turning out to be a very expensive brew. Hopefully it'll be worth it!

 

[Kee]

I really can't thank you enough for all the help you have given me. I'll go out and get another vial of the WLP 530 and make a starter, just to be sure. I don't have an aeration kit though, and from the looks of it the stirplate + vigorous shake before pitching to the fermentor won't be enough to do the trick. Sounds like I'm gonna need to buy me an aeration system. This is turning out to be a very expensive brew. Hopefully it'll be worth it!

Are you fermenting in the upper ranges of temperature for that yeast? I don't see where you mentioned the fermentation temperature but it really helps attenuation if it is in the upper 70's low 80's.

I've gotten by without an aeration kit although I plan to get one.

And yes, chances are your beer will be worth it.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

At this point, would there be much difference between him pitching champagne yeast or more westmalle? Or has the yeast already given just about all of its flavor contribution? Would you still pitch yeast at bottling time as normal with this method?

Probably very little. I might select Westmalle for a re-pitch but at this stage with a multi-week primary the esters are pretty well established. A champagne yeast will be very neutral.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Adding to this post, raising DO to a high level before initial pitch may be important. I use an oxygen tank from Home Depot or Lowes and and a diffusing wand for a couple of minutes before pitching. I think it makes a difference.


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Yep, agree. trying to get at least 10ppm is the norm for DO in a Belgian Dark Strong. We slow diffuse for 90-120 seconds through .05 micron diffuser. We built our own sight glass and apparatus but you can buy them already configured from More-Beer still I think.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

At this point, would there be much difference between him pitching champagne yeast or more westmalle? Or has the yeast already given just about all of its flavor contribution? Would you still pitch yeast at bottling time as normal with this method?

Yes, you would still have to pitch a small amount for priming.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Recently I took drastic measures when my slurry of Westmalle yeast showed no signs of activity after more than 24 hours. I made a 2 quart starter of WY3711 and pitched into the 4.5 gallons of 1.095 wort. (The only yeast I had available). 5 days later it's at 1.009.

My point being using another yeast may be more effective in getting the gravity down. Whether the flavor profile will be what you are seeking is another question.

3711 is a monster It will definitely chew through gravity without much help.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I really can't thank you enough for all the help you have given me. I'll go out and get another vial of the WLP 530 and make a starter, just to be sure. I don't have an aeration kit though, and from the looks of it the stirplate + vigorous shake before pitching to the fermentor won't be enough to do the trick. Sounds like I'm gonna need to buy me an aeration system. This is turning out to be a very expensive brew. Hopefully it'll be worth it!

Yes, it can get expensive. A stir-plate is indispensable for most Belgian ales.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

This thread has been collated and distilled to the following link:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f73/westvleteren-12-clone-multiple-award-winner-500037/

 

[FredTheNuke]

At the board advice of SmokingHole a while back we began a series of tests for an oak barrel-aged variation of the Westy clone. We're using 5 gallon barrels for small batch testing. Since it's barrel-aged this may be off topic on this board so I'll only mention it once. So far the intermediate tests have been spectacular with the oak creating a silky ale while adding only a hint of oak tannin. We'll know more in about 3-4 months.

I just caught this. Right on! I am glad to see you changed your mind since March of this year - I am looking forward to the results. My next batch I intend to oak in both new medium toast and used bourbon barrels. Should be an excellent product.

 

[meadowstream]

I just caught this. Right on! I am glad to see you changed your mind since March of this year - I am looking forward to the results. My next batch I intend to oak in both new medium toast and used bourbon barrels. Should be an excellent product.

So would you primary in the barrels or rack after primary and do a long secondary in the barrels or...?



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[FredTheNuke]

First off I oak in glass with cubes. You can add the oak near the end of the secondary just before bottling/kegging or add less oak for the entire duration of the secondary.

 

[meadowstream]

First off I oak in glass with cubes. You can add the oak near the end of the secondary just before bottling/kegging or add less oak for the entire duration of the secondary.

So you cut the old barrels up and pitch into your fermenters?


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[rockdemon]

Is there something off with this one? Its been in secondary for 2 months now. Its like a really thin layer on top and these bubbles. I took a sample before the pic and it tastes ok, strooong but ok.

 

[PJoyce85]

I don't want to alarm and the picture is somewhat hard to see detail, but that milkiness and large bubbles look like infection to me. I could be 100% wrong and don't want to worry so hopefully someone else may be able to see it better.

 

[GregKelley]

That picture looks fine to me. I've seen my beers do that months later, a sign of still active yeast, which is good. Taste it and if it doesn't taste sour, you are good.

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

Is there something off with this one? Its been in secondary for 2 months now. Its like a really thin layer on top and these bubbles. I took a sample before the pic and it tastes ok, strooong but ok.

It's hard to tell from the pic but it does look like the early stages of pellicle formation that we see in some sours.

 

[thatjonguy]

It's hard to tell from the pic but it does look like the early stages of pellicle formation that we see in some sours.

Agreed.

 

[rockdemon]

Hmm, Ive moved it to a warmer room now(About 21C). Maybe ill see some change within the next week or so. Im thinking that the bacteria would like a warmer climate. So if it is an unwanted bacteria ill soon now. It didnt taste sour now, only very strong alcohol...

Another question: Wouldnt it be hard for bacteria to live in the >10% abv environment? I would think that the beer would sanitize itself. Or maybe it takes a whole lot more alcohol to do that...

 

[sikkingj]

If it is a bacteria, I believe I have read you can siphon from underneath the bacteria and salvage the beer....


Sent from the window of an airplane...

 

[rockdemon]

If it is a bacteria, I believe I have read you can siphon from underneath the bacteria and salvage the beer....


Sent from the window of an airplane...

Thanks! Ill try that. But since im scared of exploding bottles ill siphon the beer to a new bucket and keep it there to ser if the bacteria comes back...

 

[PJoyce85]

Thanks! Ill try that. But since im scared of exploding bottles ill siphon the beer to a new bucket and keep it there to ser if the bacteria comes back...

Even if you siphon from under the pellicle, there will still be bacteria if that is what it is. I would leave it in the same bucket and see what happens. If it is an infection and you transfer to a new bucket, then you have infected 2 buckets.

 

[thatjonguy]

Even if you siphon from under the pellicle, there will still be bacteria if that is what it is. I would leave it in the same bucket and see what happens. If it is an infection and you transfer to a new bucket, then you have infected 2 buckets.

+1

You are in a race against time for that beer. At some point it will become noticeable.

 

[Bottoms_Up]

+1

You are in a race against time for that beer. At some point it will become noticeable.

What kind of wild yeast can withstand that level of alcohol, and be able to use such a low residual sugar content?

 

[SavoryChef]

I would add some Brett and wait 6+ months and see what happens

 

[thatjonguy]

What kind of wild yeast can withstand that level of alcohol, and be able to use such a low residual sugar content?

Brett L and Brett B from Wyeast both are tolerant up to 12%.

If there is any sugar left, Brett will find it.

Not sure what level we are talking about in his particular case but there is a lot of sugar left fot brett at a TG of 1.010.

 

[FredTheNuke]

I added a smack pack of Roeselare to a Cuvee Van de Keizer clone (recipe courtesy of CSI). That is a 12% beer. It is doing just fine - the pics are recently in the Pellicle Pictures thread. Let your Infected Westy sit for a year or 2 - it may come out amazing!

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

What kind of wild yeast can withstand that level of alcohol, and be able to use such a low residual sugar content?

If it is an infection, (and on close-up it does look like one), my guess would be Brett or ABV tolerant Saccharomyces that slipped in. Both bacteria's can mutate quickly. If it doesn't taste medicinal then it may not be a wild yeast infection.

Rockdemon, does the ale taste ok but a tiny bit sour on finish?

 

[CSI - CandiSyrup]

I added a smack pack of Roeselare to a Cuvee Van de Keizer clone (recipe courtesy of CSI). That is a 12% beer. It is doing just fine - the pics are recently in the Pellicle Pictures thread. Let your Infected Westy sit for a year or 2 - it may come out amazing!

It could end up being a great beer!

 

[rockdemon]

If it is an infection, (and on close-up it does look like one), my guess would be Brett or ABV tolerant Saccharomyces that slipped in. Both bacteria's can mutate quickly. If it doesn't taste medicinal then it may not be a wild yeast infection.

Rockdemon, does the ale taste ok but a tiny bit sour on finish?

not really, it mostly tasted alcohol.