The OFFICIAL 11-11-11 Old Ale Thread - The HBT Anniversary Series

[jmo88]

This sounds like a ton of fun and a great recipe. I have never brewed an Old ale and I have never caramalized anything. Can someone make sure that I have the caramlization thing correct? I am going to mash 60 min at 158F, collect 2 gal of the first runnings and boil down to 1-2 qts. Complete the first runnings, sparge and add the boiled down runnings to the first and final runnings and bring all wort to a boil as normal. Does that sound about right?

Right, but you'll need to runoff more than usual to make up for the caramelization or add top off if your final running's gravity get to low.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Right, but you'll need to runoff more than usual to make up for the caramelization or add top off if your final running's gravity get to low.

You mean to make up for what I boil off? So if I would normally collect 4 gal, I would need to collect an additional 1.5 gal?

 

[skeeordye11]

One of the things I've liked about talking about this recipe is that the recipe posted seems to be more a guide than anything. Some people are usuing 2-row or pils malt. Some people are only boiling 1 gal of first runnings down to 1-2 qts. People are kinda doing their own thing to the recipe based on what equipment, ingredients, etc. they have on hand. Don't get hung up on the minor details, just brew the damn beer and have fun! (I've been drucking again by the way)

 

[KingBrianI]

(I've been drucking again by the way)

I thought you learned your lesson!

 

[KingBrianI]

I know you can't tell much from a starter, but the smells that 9097 is making are amazing. I'm really looking forward to the beer it will produce. There is already the hint of some pie cherries in there.

 

[mojotele]

It seems my local stores are out of Target hops. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions on substitutes?

 

[KingBrianI]

It seems my local stores are out of Target hops. Anyone else having this problem? Any suggestions on substitutes?

Any neutral high alpha hop will work. Heck, even low-alpha british hops would be fine. Fuggles, Willamette, EKG if you don't mind wasting their aroma. I'm going to actually be using Magnum since it's clean and high alpha. The hops shouldn't come through at all in this recipe.

 

[Edcculus]

Hmmm...I wasn't planning on doing the 11-11-11, but its been a good while since Ive brewed, and this looks right up my alley. I love the amount of creativity on this one. I've already got some ideas churning.

 

[AnOldUR]

Any neutral high alpha hop will work. Heck, even low-alpha british hops would be fine. Fuggles, Willamette, EKG if you don't mind wasting their aroma . . .

That was my thought also. With the extended aging all that will be left of the hop character will be the bittering. I have some 9.5% AA First Gold that I'll be using.

 

[mojotele]

I was going to go with something like Magnum, glad to see others are doing that as well. I have a bunch of EKG, but I don't want to dump that many hops just to bitter. Thanks, KingBrianI!

 

[strat_thru_marshall]

I want to get in on this one. I just placed my order for yeast (LHBS only does White Labs).

Sounds like something that will be killer with some age.

 

[KingBrianI]

Whew, just got through whirlpooling this beer. That was a longish brewday. The kettle caramelization step takes a while so plan for that when scheduling your brew day. I think I boiled it down for 2 or so hours. Started with 2 gallons and got it down to just under 0.5 gallons before it started to scorch a bit so I pulled the plug. It had thickened and darkened significantly and the flavor had become very nice. I don't think it boiled down enough to get the toffee I was looking for but I didn't want any burnt flavors getting in. Should still turn out well. Anyone who was worried about it not being dark enough need not worry anymore. I'll post a pic of the gravity sample later on after everything is wrapped up and the yeast is pitched. The boil down really added a lot of color. Stay tuned for pictures of the brew day.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Stay tuned for pictures of the brew day.

I'm looking forward to these. Sadly, it will be a few weeks before I'll be able to brew mine.

 

[KingBrianI]

I'm looking forward to these. Sadly, it will be a few weeks before I'll be able to brew mine.

Here they are! I got distracted by the UNC game. Man, the color on this beer is perfect. Just what I had hoped for. "Gun Stock Ale" really fits.

First runnings coming to a boil

Getting some foam on top

Boiling down

Starting to get syrupy and foaming quite a bit

Reducing more and getting more syrupy

Getting pretty dark and thick now, this is where I noticed some scorching on the bottom

Ooops! Haven't tried scrubbing that out yet...

 

[KingBrianI]

Syrup added to other runnings and heading for a boil

Hops added

Trub cone. I got greedy and pulled up some break material

The color: dark polished walnut

Gravity came in spot on

 

[Edcculus]

Wow, what a freaking beautiful beer. And thats only the wort!!!

 

[KingBrianI]

Wow, what a freaking beautiful beer. And thats only the wort!!!

Yeah, I couldn't be happier with the color. When I was coming up with ideas for this beer, this is exactly what I had in mind. There is a picture of Samuel Smith's Yorkshire Stingo I'll try to find and post below that had a very similar color and it always makes me want a beer just like it when I see that picture. (Although SS's Yorkshire Stingo is slightly underwhelming, it looks amazing)

Be sure to use the thickest-bottomed pot you can when you do the boil down everyone. I thought my pot was adequate but I guess it wasn't. You'll need a lot of room above the wort level too, since once it gets syrupy it bubbles up to 2-3x its volume.


The inspiration

 

[mojotele]

Man, those pictures make me even more excited to brew this beer. I'll hopefully have all the ingredients to brew this one at the end of the upcoming week. I've scheduled the brew day for 11/13!

 

[Kirbster]

I am getting very excited to brew this beer and cant keep from talking about it. Questions about the reducing of syrup. Did you stir it while you were boiling, and what did you do with your mash in the meantime.

 

[KingBrianI]

I am getting very excited to brew this beer and cant keep from talking about it. Questions about the reducing of syrup. Did you stir it while you were boiling, and what did you do with your mash in the meantime.

If you have a sufficiently thick-bottomed pot, stirring shouldn't be necessary since the heating a cooling of the syrup causes it to constantly circulate around. If you are worried though, you can do what I did and run something over the bottom to check for any rough spots which will indicate scorching.

As for what I did with my mash, I ran the rest of the first runnings and all the second runnings into my main boil kettle while I started reducing the 2 gallons of first runnings. Then once all my other runnings were collected, I pulled the pot with the reduction off and put the main boil kettle on the burner to bring it up to about 180 to stop conversion. then I pulled it off and let it sit while I reduced the syrup. Then the syrup was added to the main boil kettle and carried on as usual.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Excellent pictures, Kingbrian. That wort looks beautiful. How'd it taste?

 

[KingBrianI]

The wort was very sweet with malt flavors tending toward toasted bread crust with a slight graininess. Had a smooth bitterness. It's always hard to tell from the wort sample how a beer would be but it tasted good to me! I was worried that my boildown wasn't enough to get some toffee because I tasted a bit of caramel in the sample but no toffee. Well, a great subtle toffee smell is making it's way out of the fermenter (that is bubling like crazy by the way) so there is toffee in there somewhere. I'm really looking forward to pulling another sample once fermentation slows down.

 

[smokinghole]

I think I'll try and brew this up next month. So much to brew and so little time!

 

[jmo88]

As for what I did with my mash, I ran the rest of the first runnings and all the second runnings into my main boil kettle while I started reducing the 2 gallons of first runnings. Then once all my other runnings were collected, I pulled the pot with the reduction off and put the main boil kettle on the burner to bring it up to about 180 to stop conversion. then I pulled it off and let it sit while I reduced the syrup. Then the syrup was added to the main boil kettle and carried on as usual.

Nice pics Brian! What temp did you hit for your mash?

 

[KingBrianI]

Nice pics Brian! What temp did you hit for your mash?

It held at 157 for the whole 60 minutes.

 

[GuldTuborg]

It's always hard to tell from the wort sample how a beer would be but it tasted good to me!

Very true, but you can often get a general idea of what some major flavors are, even if you don't know what the overall balance will be, or what the yeast will do to it. Thanks for the updates! I'm excited about my brew, now. This is going to take some major patience. I hope I'm up to the challenge.

 

[AnOldUR]

It held at 157 for the whole 60 minutes.

I didn't read through the whole recipe development thread, but when I saw the 158 degree temperature for both infusion and rest I thought it was a misprint; that the infusion was at 158 (or whatever your system needed) and that the rest would be lower. I thought that getting to 1.016 (80% attenuation) would take a much lower mash temperature. No experience with the 9097-PC is probably my problem. You’re expecting great things from this yeast?

And thanks for the pictures. I think you have all of us more excited about brewing this.




Edit:
Ordered ingredients today

 

[smokinghole]

I actually got ingredients for this today also. Well I ordered the yeast and for ease I got brown/amber malt at BMW. I have 40lbs of MO on hand to use for the base.

 

[jmo88]

I didn't read through the whole recipe development thread, but when I saw the 158 degree temperature for both infusion and rest I thought it was a misprint; that the infusion was at 158 (or whatever your system needed) and that the rest would be lower. I thought that getting to 1.016 (80% attenuation) would take a much lower mash temperature. No experience with the 9097-PC is probably my problem. You’re expecting great things from this yeast?

158F was chosen because of the extended aging with the brett that is in the 9097. Over the course of several months, the brett will continue to eat those long chain sugars. Brewers looking to brew this without brett should probably lower the mash temp.

 

[AnOldUR]

My plan for this beer was to brew a lower gravity batch this weekend using the same ratio of grains. The reason being two fold. One, to get an idea of the flavors produced and also to have a nice slurry to pitch the Old Ale onto.

Then this morning my aging brain recalled something from a batch of Flanders Brown that's been aging in my basement for about a year and a half. It used Wyeast 3763-PC Roeselare Ale Blend. Since it's similar to the Wyeast 9097-PC Old Ale Blend that we plan to use in this beer, I'm thinking that the email below from Wyeast about 3763-PC should be taken into consideration.

QUESTION FROM:
Herman Richards

I have a pack of Wyeast 3763-PC Roeselare Ale Blend on the way and have
a couple of questions on its use. Is it a bad idea to make a starter?
My thougt is that the growth rate of the mixed cultures may be
compromised. The other question is related. Rather than make a starter
I sometimes will brew a smaller expermental batch and use that yeast
cake for the intended beer. Would transfering the expermental batch to a
secondary after a week or so and reusing the yeast be a problem with
your blended cultures?

Herman,

It is not recommended to make a starter with this blend. You will
definitely throw off the balance of cultures in the blend. Basically,
you will increase the Saccharomyces population w/o increasing any of the
other cultures.

The second technique you listed would be better than a starter, but once
again, you will not be propagating all of the cultures. This time, you
would be increasing the Saccharomyces culture and maybe some of the
lactic acid bacteria.

Let me know if you have other questions.


Jess Caudill
Brewer/Microbiologist
Wyeast Laboratories
(541) 354-1335