The [Horribly Unpopular] Soccer Thread

[Birrofilo]

Not takling about F1 or cyclng which few people care about compared to football. Those sports lend themselves to the remote viewer. Football is very much more local.
[...]
I actually pay closer attention to F1 ironically.

In Italy cycling is the second most practised sport (at all levels) and is probably the second most viewed sport in television. It's a national passion second only to football. And yet, since the mist of times, the most important competitions are private tournaments.

I don't understand why you see F1 as a "cleaner" sport (or sport-business) than football. There is all sort of cheating even there, and "referees" can heavily influence a result (even more after the introduction of the "pace car"). Second pilots are often chosen for the sponsor they bring, or the TV public they bring, not for merit. F1 races are organized in the Arabic peninsula (Bahrein, and possibly also Qatar in the future) as well, and nobody complains about labour exploitation. You cannot normally go and see it, it's for rich people. And there is no second league to be relegated to. And it's not local at all. It really is like the Superleague.

But football was different when we were children, so that we don't recognize it any more, while F1 was this way since its inception (and actually before, talking about that kind of competitions) so it is considered "normal".

Local football can be followed regardless of what happens in professional football.

 

[Nubiwan]

In Italy cycling is the second most practised sport (at all levels) and is probably the second most viewed sport in television. It's a national passion second only to football. And yet, since the mist of times, the most important competitions are private tournaments.

I don't understand why you see F1 as a "cleaner" sport (or sport-business) than football. There is all sort of cheating even there, and "referees" can heavily influence a result (even more after the introduction of the "pace car"). Second pilots are often chosen for the sponsor they bring, or the TV public they bring, not for merit. F1 races are organized in the Arabic peninsula (Bahrein, and possibly also Qatar in the future) as well, and nobody complains about labour exploitation. You cannot normally go and see it, it's for rich people. And there is no second league to be relegated to. And it's not local at all. It really is like the Superleague.

But football was different when we were children, so that we don't recognize it any more, while F1 was this way since its inception (and actually before, talking about that kind of competitions) so it is considered "normal".

Local football can be followed regardless of what happens in professional football.

I never ever said F1 was clean. Merely that i am more compelled to watch that product, than the game i loved as a boy. F1 has always been the purview of the rich and famous. Monaco etc. as you said. Hence the irony. There is no deceipt attempted in F1. It is what it is. I think football tries to pretend its still there for the people. Its not. Its a corrupt money racquet, for sale to the highest bidder. Brown bag enterprise.

I think any sport activity, at grass roots can be more compelling than at the professional level. See college football in the us versus the NFL offering. It is still nice to see professionals do it at high pace, and with skill. Ice hockey being a fine example of both grass roots excitment, and the professional game being fast and highly skilled, for anyoen ever skated, or tried to play it. Football loses something at the professional level at times, and the entire scope of the financial direction it has taken has left a fair few people disenchanted, i would suggest. Enough is enough for many.

 

[bkboiler]

I'm an armchair fan, I support the San Marino national team...
Just kidding.
Across all sport types and levels, competitions are segregated by ability and governed to limit arms-races. F1 is a perfect example. Physics does not necessarily limit the car's ability as much as the regulations do.
As long as teams with the financial means such as Manchester United are allowed to compete in the same league as Sheffield (for example), you'll have an unsporting exhibition.
Unfortunately for the love of the game...it's further regulation that brings teams such as this onto an equal playing field and prevents the board rooms from deciding the match rather than the locker rooms.

 

[Nubiwan]

Actually, I think "this sort of reaction" happened exactly because the fans do not understand that football "has already become a financial farce". People reacted as if we were in the 1970'.

I don't think it's a farce, it is sport-businss, not unlike cyclism, or Formula 1, which underwent this kind of evolution many years ago. Teams are not "natonal", and in the case of Formula 1 seats are mostly very expensive (unless you stay 2 hours standing in muddy grass under the rain).

It is not any more the football of when I was a child, either. Times change, but all change is driven by demand, there is no conspiracy. When I was a child, all teams played at the same time. We listened the matches at the radio, and we might have bet with the Totocalcio, the only allowed footbal betting game of the time.

But people wanted to see the matches at the TV, and they wanted to see all important matches. And a lot of people like to make small bets on football matches. One of the consequences is that the horse-racing industry nearly died in Italy. Times change, but it's the result of demand.

@Birrofilo just curious what percentage of Series A team's players are Italian. Id be betting it is a higher proportion of those who are English in the "English" equivalent. Same if i asked a Spaniard, German or Frenchman.

I looked it up....... EPL is 36 % English. Serie A 39% Italian. France, Germany and Spain all hover around 50% home talent. Which countries are the most successful in recent years?

The premier league is all about money, yet somehow pretends its promoting football, for England. Does nothing good for English football.

 

[soccerdad]

Maybe the English just aren't very good at the game ??? Not good enough to play in their own league ....

 

[Birrofilo]

@Nubiwan

True. When I was a boy I followed Formula 1 very keenly. It goes without saying, my colours were uniform red. Well, at that time, basically the only Italian top person in the team was the chief engineer Forghieri. Later, not even that. Not one pilot, not the chief engineer. There was a very brief parenthesis with pilot Alboreto, and then again other 20-30 years of foreign drivers and engineers. Since last year there is an Italian chief engineer again, Binotto. I think the last Italian pilot was Alboreto who was in Ferrari in 1984 - 1988.

Yet, I do see Ferrari as an Italian team as I always did. Sport is not something entirely rational, and rooting for is even less rational.

Until recently, Juventus always had around 5/11 of players in the field who were Italians. Other teams, such as Inter and Milan - especially Inter - in certain cases had not one Italian player in the team, barring a youngster in the bleachers. Yet, I always continued to see it as an Italian team. Just like I see Manchester United as a British team.

When I was a child, there were no foreign players allowed. 100% of the teams were made of Italians.

Things change. I see football as the Formula 1 logic applied to the ball. Many things have changed since I was a child. "Rooting for" remains firm.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sounds like some punishment from UEFA coming down. Juve, Real, and Barca haven't abandoned the Super League and will likely get the book thrown at them. The other 9 who backed away getting more modest punishment with accepting major punishment if they try again.

The Italian FA can now boot breakaway clubs. The English FA hasn't announced anything yet but I expect the same.

Rot in hell Super League.

 

[Birrofilo]

I am not aware of any change in the rules of FIGC or UEFA, so there is no infraction so far of any code of conduct. When and if those changes are implemented, they will only be valid for the future.

UEFA behaves more and more like organized crime. There's a judge in Berlin!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Cool. Juventus can leave, lose their champions league revenue, and all the other benefits that come with involvement in the various federations, and fold. What with only belonging to the owners and not their fans as it should be, is their right. Bye.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Goes to show how out of touch some football club owners (and supporters) really are.

 

[Birrofilo]

If one thinks that "sport" belongs to just one federation, it is he who is out of touch. Sport is sport. Football is football regardless of the tournament being organized by UEFA, FIFA, FIGC.

Besides, those organizations will probably violate EU rules about freedom of competition if they take measures (in this case, even blackmailing sanctions for no violations of rules) in order to prevent competition from happening. They want a "monopoly" which is allegedly illegal to try to maintain. This will be soon judged by some judges. In the meanwhile, such organizations have been warned to abstain from any measures which tries to protect the monopoly or to intimidate the independent clubs. There is a sentence by a Spanish judge which binds them all to wait for the matter to be judged in front of a proper court. The only thing we can do, is to wait for this judgement.

All those attempt by UEFA and FIGC (FIFA has already changed attitude) to limit the freedom of the clubs are at the moment illegal (if and when they result in actual "punishments") and will be dealt with by in the relevant court.

I am not worried at all by UEFA and FIGC. I am worried by the shameless betrayal of the project by the perfidious flip-flop British clubs and the possibility of a new attempt in the future, if this is the quality of their management. Certainly something must change in the way foot-ball is organized at UEFA level. Certainly the change can have a different shape than private tournaments, naturally, but private tournaments ARE an option on the table (another option is an "Europa league", we will see).

The equivalent of the Superleague exists in European basket and, for what I read, is working very well. And nobody in the basket world cried "foul" and "betrayal" and "scandal".

EDIT: Juventus will never "fold" because they have a large and faithful, and intelligent supporter base, unlike certain British clubs.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Brother Juve Real and Barca are operating financially unsustainably are drowning in debt. They needed this money. And that's why they're still clinging to it for dear life.

If you can't see this for what it is, there's no point engaging any further with you on it.

 

[Birrofilo]

Brother Juve Real and Barca are operating financially unsustainably are drowning in debt. They needed this money. And that's why they're still clinging to it for dear life.

If you can't see this for what it is, there's no point engaging any further with you on it.

Brother, you should understand we live in difficult times.
Juve, Real, Barça and many other teams had an investment level which was perfectly compatible with their normal revenue turnaround.
Then Covid arrived.
Revenues had a sharp decline for two years, and are quite jeopardized also for the next season, but the cost structure is rigid (it's all contracts and players are not very keen in re-negotiating their pay, after all they play the same and risk their legs in the same way) and this created a serious problem for several teams.

It should be noted that, in the Italian championships, teams like Roma and Lazio have higher debts than Juventus, and they have generally less chances to make revenues from UEFA competitions (although they do make usually a lot of money with merchandising and stadium tickets, they do suffer from the Covid situation. Actually, Roma and Lazio probably suffer more, as they have a larger proportion of their revenues coming from the tickets).

That said, Juventus, Barça, Real Madrid and some other teams in Europe, not just British and Spanish and Italian, are asking a new formula since at least 20 years or more. I was young when the project of a private tournament was floated around by many European clubs, Juventus included. It's something that was "immanent" since basically ever. What happened this year was simply that the Covid crisis somehow was a catalyser of this inevitable process. Some people got tired of waiting forever. Then, some of those people made a shameless about-face, they threw the stone and then hid their arm, as the Italian saying goes.

The process is not over. I deem it likely that, in some form or other, this project will resurface, either as a private tournament, or as a total restructuring of the UEFA competitions, which are bloated and ineffective from a business point of view.

UEFA, as it is now, it's a total failure from a business/entertainment point of view, which is important for all major clubs and for the entire industry. It's no chance that Cycling, Formula 1, Basket do use private tournaments (those are the sports at, at world level, constitute the most diffused form of entertainment). European Football, as I repeat, is more of an exception than the rule.

 

[Kharnynb]

The issue with the superleague isn't so much that it's competing with uefa(few of us care about that) it's the whole "we started it, so we can't ever be out of it" part.
All other leagues, you can get demoted if you **** up. but it would be beyond daft that arsenal or ******* spurs would forever be in the top league just cause they can't be demoted/lose their spot for a year.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The issue with the superleague isn't so much that it's competing with uefa(few of us care about that) it's the whole "we started it, so we can't ever be out of it" part.
All other leagues, you can get demoted if you **** up. but it would be beyond daft that arsenal or ****ing spurs would forever be in the top league just cause they can't be demoted/lose their spot for a year.

And that's precisely why we know this is solely a cash grab by the clubs involved.

But yes. This. Some undeserving clubs (Spurs, Arsenal) get theirs while all the other clubs and other countries get f***ed.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Cynical coup and bad for the sport. Full stop.

Spurs backpedalling still leaves much to be desired. But at least it's back in the right direction.

ENIC out.

 

[Birrofilo]

The issue with the superleague isn't so much that it's competing with uefa(few of us care about that) it's the whole "we started it, so we can't ever be out of it" part.
All other leagues, you can get demoted if you **** up. but it would be beyond daft that arsenal or ****ing spurs would forever be in the top league just cause they can't be demoted/lose their spot for a year.

I certainly understand this reasoning. In fact, that's the weak point. But then, those who organize the tournament, normally want to be in. This can be overcome in two ways:

a) UEFA organizes a "Europa league", which comprises around 20 top teams (to be qualified according to certain UEFA rules) and which lasts from September to May. The teams which participate in the Europa league do not participate in the national leagues. That would make sense for the needs of the major EU teams, but UEFA will not do that because that would damage the national federations;

b) A private subject, independently of the teams, organizes a tournament. The private subject will either operate on an invitation basis (as it happens in cycling) or on a different basis and will make some preselections.

What matters, for the teams, is that the income from the participation to the tournament is known in advance. You cannot plan investments if your income depends on a couple of games.

One of the serious problems with the Champions League is that one cannot really make a serious investment plan.

 

[soccerdad]

CL Final - what a match!

 

[soccerdad]

Excuse me fellow Americans but if you want to argue with Chelsea manager Tuchel about how and when he plays Pulisic, you are too full of horse$hit to even join the conversation. Tuchel has been one of the hottest managers in football since he took over at Chelsea. Pulisic has been a true super sub off the bench. Enough said. If you want to argue with somebody, ask Guardiola why he left Aguero off the field as long as he did when things weren't going their way.
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/tuchel-explains-pulisic-omission-champions-183918066.html

 

[soccerdad]

Man! Portugal was a goal scoring machine today.

 

[Kharnynb]

this euro championship is full of surprises, portugal, spain and france are all firing on less than all cylinders so far.
My hometeam(netherlands) is doing okay, but we're lacking a good forward with depay not in topform and missing van dijk in defense will hurt us against bigger teams.

 

[soccerdad]

Only 3 teams out of 24 with 6 points after 2 games .. And the Dutch are one of the 3. Not France, not England, not Portugal, not Spain ..

 

[Qhrumphf]

Seems like Germany might have found themselves.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Meanwhile it's England and the Macedonia fairytale for me.

 

[Birrofilo]

Superstitions prevent me from making any comment

 

[soccerdad]

And don't change your lucky socks

 

[Kharnynb]

sadly, my adopted homeland(finland) seems to be done for, barring a miracle tomorrow.

 

[Kharnynb]

Only 3 teams out of 24 with 6 points after 2 games .. And the Dutch are one of the 3. Not France, not England, not Portugal, not Spain ..

we had an easy group, but the team is pretty decent, short of some solidity in defence and a fit and sharp forward. our midfield on the other hand is as good as it gets.

 

[soccerdad]

Make that 9 points in 3 games

 

[soccerdad]

If I were to pick an #all eleven# from Euro 2020, I think I would pick Raheem Stirling first. I'm raising a glass of stout to him as his side enjoys a 1-0 halftime lead over UKR.