Historical Beer: Lichtenhainer That "L" Word

[radwizard]

Recipe Type

All Grain

Yeast

Voss Kveik

Yeast Starter

no

Batch Size (Gallons)

5.5

Original Gravity

1.033

Final Gravity

1.005

Boiling Time (Minutes)

0

IBU

5

Color

3

Primary Fermentation (# of Days & Temp)

10 days @ 75f

Tasting Notes

Light, smoky aroma. Slight tart bite up front, followed by bready-smoky. Really tasty beer.

60% Oat Smoked Wheat Malt
20% Mecca Grade Lamonta Malt
20% Mecca Grade Pelton Malt

Heated up 6 gallons of brewing water.
Mashed in (Full Volume) and rested at 148 F for 60 Min
Mashed out and heated Wort to 185 for 15 Min
Chilled Rapidly to 70F
Removed 2 liters of chilled wort into starter Flask. Refrigerated.
Racked remaining wort to FV
Pitched 1 pack of Omega Voss Kveik Yeast, added o2, set temp to 75F
Once fermentation started, Added 2 GoodBelly Manjo Probiotic shots.
At 36 hrs of fermentation: Boiled 2 liters of saved wort for 15 minutes. Added Loral Hops (.5 oz) to achieve 5 IBUs. Chilled wort and added to FV.

Fermented quickly. After 10 days racked to Keg and Primed with sugar. After three weeks I chilled it and served.


Really cool beer. Super easy and fun to brew. Props to the HBTers that helped me out in my Lichtenhainer Thread a few months ago.

I left the ingredients in percent format because beers like this are often brewed on smaller scales initially, and I thought it would be easier to get started with. If anyone want any more details - let me know.

 

[Beeru]

Adding this to my up next. Looks very interesting. Thanks.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds really good! I have some questions if you don't mind.

1. Weyermann for the smoked malt?

2. Do these substitutions sound reasonable?
Lanonta -> Maris Otter
Pelton -> Pilsner
Loral -> Strisselspalt (spicy, citrusy, floral, fruity and herbal)

3. Do you get much flavor from Voss at 75°F with the Lacto?

I'll probably brew it this spring.
Cheers

 

[radwizard]

Yes, Weyermann Oat Smoked Malt is the smoked malt.
Lamonta is pale malt, and Pelton is Pils. I'm sure any would be fine - and Strisselspalt would be a great choice also.

I went with the Kveik yeast, based on an article that was link though MTF ( http://wilder-wald.com/2017/02/24/lichtenhainer/ ) I didn't get a lot of noticable flavor from it at this temp. The Smokeyness, mild lacto, and hints of lemon were dominate.

It was really fun to brew, and ended up being a really nice drinking beer for me. I just put it up in a decent size comp. under historical beer - I am hoping it does well. It will be interesting to get feedback from it - I will update this thread when I get the results.

You should give it a go. There is very limited info out there about the style, and many different routes to go. I felt like I learned a lot while researching the style.

 

[HomemadeSauce]

I've been meaning to brew a Lichtenhainer for a couple years. Your iteration looks excellent.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Digging into this style more and now hoping to do one soon. Probably do a 2gal batch or something, so as not to commit to a large quantity if i end up not liking it.

I'm seeing different iterations by you, @radwizard , depending on the time/thread with slight recipe/process differences. I've pretty much resolved them except for the idea of pitching. In your thread here, you mentioned co-pitching the sacc and lacto, but in this recipe you state to pitch lacto once fermentation started. I know it realistically is only a matter of 24hr or so, but have you any experience or something anecdotal to point towards saying one way is preferred over the another? I'm just curious as to how that sacc head start would differ in this environment, compared to a simultaneous co-pitch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

My 2 cents:
Lacto mutes yeast expression, so delayed Lacto pitching promotes yeast character.
At this temperature, Voss probably doesn't add much flavor anyway. That'd be a different story if fermented >90°F.
I was kind of wondering why he didn't choose to ferment higher.

I'm fermenting a beer with Omega Voss at 95-98°F and it's really good, tastes like fresh oranges.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Good points. After a good deal of research, i am leaning toward using a more traditional yeast (for the style) instead of the kveik, like WY1007 (German Ale), but it sounds like with this style the yeast is tertiary regarding flavor anyway (behind the smoke and sour). Thinking (like a berlinerweisse) a neutral yeast flavor would be fitting.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Is a german ale yeast more traditional than a "landrace yeast"?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Is a german ale yeast more traditional than a "landrace yeast"?

No idea what that is ([emoji6] ) but i figured a german yeast for a historic german beer. Not to mention thats what a few references pointed to.

 

[radwizard]

Digging into this style more and now hoping to do one soon. Probably do a 2gal batch or something, so as not to commit to a large quantity if i end up not liking it.

I'm seeing different iterations by you, @radwizard , depending on the time/thread with slight recipe/process differences. I've pretty much resolved them except for the idea of pitching. In your thread here, you mentioned co-pitching the sacc and lacto, but in this recipe you state to pitch lacto once fermentation started. I know it realistically is only a matter of 24hr or so, but have you any experience or something anecdotal to point towards saying one way is preferred over the another? I'm just curious as to how that sacc head start would differ in this environment, compared to a simultaneous co-pitch.

There wasn't any brewing related reason for that pitching schedule. My wife drank the probiotics I intended to pitch, and I had to run down to Whole Foods to get some more after brewing. I didnt record the time before I pitched but it was less then 24 hours - close to 12. I'm pretty sure that with that short amount of time there was no real difference.

As mentioned, you can get some more yeast flavors in the finished beer by pitching Sacc. first. I would imagine you would have to go sacc. only for 3 or 4 days at least to get this effect - just guessing.

You really should give it a shot. I wanted to post this one to give a good starting point. I went with the Kveik based on the article I linked above. That article was the best resource I found on the style.

I brewed this beer to enter into a fairly large local comp. I'm not a big comp. guy, but I wanted to give it a shot. It scored 35/50, and didn't really receive any negative comments imo. One judge said it was a little to sour, which surprised me as one of my least sour sour beers.

I'll post my score sheets though, in case anyone is interested.

 

[radwizard]

--

 

[radwizard]

 

[cactusgarrett]

Thanks for sharing! I got some supplies to try a 2gal test batch, just awaiting the delivery of my Swanson capsules. Do you think it was too sour for the style? Would it be worth pursuing a separate kettle souring step then a quick boil to kill lacto before fermenting (as opposed to co-pitching)?

 

[radwizard]

Thanks for sharing! I got some supplies to try a 2gal test batch, just awaiting the delivery of my Swanson capsules. Do you think it was too sour for the style? Would it be worth pursuing a separate kettle souring step then a quick boil to kill lacto before fermenting (as opposed to co-pitching)?

I don't at all think it was too sour for the style. In my planning I just went for "a little less acidity then a berliner", and I nailed what I was going for. It's kind of hard for me to relate how close I nailed the actual style, as everything I did was based on written research, no actual taste comparison. I can say that I will brew this beer the same, it was tasty, and for me it is a Lichtenhainer. The judges both agreed that the beer was enjoyable, and that is all that really matters to me.

Another comment I received, was that it could use a little more body. IMO that comment is more valid then the acidity level.

As far as the kettle sour step goes, I think either way would be just fine. I don't really do the reboiling step anymore, opting for acidity control via hops into the fermentation. Plantarum is great because it is so easy to put the brakes on it. If I was you, I would follow the same procedures you use in Berliners - if you are having success with them.

Hope something in there is helpful. Enjoy the brew day!

 

[cactusgarrett]

Hope something in there is helpful. Enjoy the brew day!

Great. I'll pay attention to mash temp, then, for more body. It's nice having just a test batch planned. Thanks so much.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Test batch fermenting away. I added the reserved, hopped portion to the main portion yesterday morning. Sampled last night... wasn't as I expected. I was hoping for a little more balance: the smoke was outshining the sourness, so i'm hoping it balances out upon completion of fermentation. Flavor was decent, which was the goal of this test batch - see if i dug it enough to make a full batch in the future. However, the thing that stood out was how thin it tasted/felt. I'm hoping once i carb it (big; ~3.0 vols) it'll round out. I mashed at 148°F, so i think if i do this one again i'll bump it up around 154°F. Also, i used 2 lacto plantarum capsules for the 2 gal of wort, and if the sourness doesn't come thru more in the final product, I'd probably either pitch lacto ahead of the sacc and/or give it more than 36hrs to sour up before adding the hopped portion.

This was a stovetop all-grain test batch of only 2 gal, but i undershot my target OG (1.032 vs 1.040), and at the time of sampling yesterday (2 days of fermentation, 12hrs after adding the reserved hopped portion) it was already down to 1.009 (WY1007 used, held at 61-63°F).

 

[radwizard]

I thought the mouthfeel was good on mine, but I did get a comment about it being thin. I wasnt to sure about it until it carbed up, it really came around for me. Anyways, this style is probably something I am going to have to brew a few times to get the feel for it. It is a fun to to play with, though.

Good luck finishing up on it.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Got one week in the bottle so i'll chill one and try today; hoping the 3 volumes of CO2 will compliment what i experienced during bottling. I was going to mash warmer than the original recipe stated, but then brain farted and forgot to do that on brew day. Regardless, it should still accomplish the original intent: see if it's a flavor i could get on board with and brew a full batch. Thanks for all the help!

 

[Nate R]

There wasn't any brewing related reason for that pitching schedule. My wife drank the probiotics I intended to pitch, and I had to run down to Whole Foods to get some more after brewing. I didnt record the time before I pitched but it was less then 24 hours - close to 12. I'm pretty sure that with that short amount of time there was no real difference.

As mentioned, you can get some more yeast flavors in the finished beer by pitching Sacc. first. I would imagine you would have to go sacc. only for 3 or 4 days at least to get this effect - just guessing.

You really should give it a shot. I wanted to post this one to give a good starting point. I went with the Kveik based on the article I linked above. That article was the best resource I found on the style.

I brewed this beer to enter into a fairly large local comp. I'm not a big comp. guy, but I wanted to give it a shot. It scored 35/50, and didn't really receive any negative comments imo. One judge said it was a little to sour, which surprised me as one of my least sour sour beers.

I'll post my score sheets though, in case anyone is interested.

Was just browsing looking for receipies (spelling!) And found this thread.
Laughed out loud whe i read the wife drank the probiotics.... how many great twists in history occur because of something so similar? Thought it was a kick.
Nice job on the comp scores. Have you done more? Any changes?

@cactusgarrett any update? How did it come out?

Just curious... no hurry no pressure y'all.

Prost!

 

[cactusgarrett]

@Nate R Final version finished just how the first tastings went: a bit thin in body and not enough sourness to my liking, so it was a bit imbalanced (heavy on the smoke side). I couldn't source oat-smoked wheat, so just went with a mix of smoked malt and white wheat, but I doubt that had much to do with my final results.

I've never had a commercial example, so I can't compare. But it's definitely a polarizing style. I think I would do this one up again, albeit a small batch, if my "want-to-do" list dries up. Even if I improved on my attempt, I don't think having 5 gallons lying around for only me to drink would be palatable.

 

[Nate R]

@Nate R Final version finished just how the first tastings went: a bit thin in body and not enough sourness to my liking, so it was a bit imbalanced (heavy on the smoke side). I couldn't source oat-smoked wheat, so just went with a mix of smoked malt and white wheat, but I doubt that had much to do with my final results.

I've never had a commercial example, so I can't compare. But it's definitely a polarizing style. I think I would do this one up again, albeit a small batch, if my "want-to-do" list dries up. Even if I improved on my attempt, I don't think having 5 gallons lying around for only me to drink would be palatable.

Thanks for the report!
I would assume your "want to do list" only increases, right? lol...
just like me- reading these old threads for no reason at all- yet there's another one to try!
lol!

 

[motherofgallons]

I'm really curious about this style as I love smoke and sour. Do you have suggestions for making this an extract recipe? I haven't done beer before and would like to start as easy as possible (though I guess I would steep the smoked malt?). Would it be possible to add fruit, I was thinking raspberries or rhubarb? What would happen if you dried it out with glucoamylase?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Aside from swapping out the base malts for extract, you'd probably need a lot of the smoked malt, or a little bit of something strong (like peat smoked malt). Might get close, but likely not a good representation of the style.

If you've never done beer before, you might be better served doing a more simple approach for your first one, as opposed to tackling more advanced techniques, such as kettle souring, fruit, and enzymes. Just my two cents.

 

[motherofgallons]

Aside from swapping out the base malts for extract, you'd probably need a lot of the smoked malt, or a little bit of something strong (like peat smoked malt). Might get close, but likely not a good representation of the style.

If you've never done beer before, you might be better served doing a more simple approach for your first one, as opposed to tackling more advanced techniques, such as kettle souring, fruit, and enzymes. Just my two cents.

Ok, forget the fruit. From my LHBS I can get Muntons spray malt extra light, light, medium, and dark. Also wheat spray malt. Also liquid Muntons light, medium, dark. I can get Weyermann oak or beech smoked malt or Swedish brand Sigdes birch smoked malt (I am in Sweden) whole as well as Crisp peated malt whole (but I dont have anything at home to mill the grain besides a mortar and pestle). I can also get Weyermann bamberg rauch lme plus a variety of their other liquid extracts. I can get a wide variety of yeast and hops. I would like to start with a 5L batch. What would you suggest if I want to make this style? I have made wine, cider, mead, and kombucha so i do have some experience brewing, just not beer. I dont have a wort chiller or any kind of specialty equipment for beer though.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Go 60/40 wheat/rauch LME. You've got a lot more extract options than MY local place does!
A clean profile, neutral yeast and german noble hops (minimally hopped if at all, since hops aren't on showcase here and you'll need no hopping to let the lacto thrive).

 

[motherofgallons]

Ok, so I am looking at Muntons Wheat lme, Weyerman Rauch lme. Maybe Nottingham or Safale05? I see some Tettnanger whole hops from 2017 on sale, or I could skip the hops altogether. For the lacto I have some probiotic pills I could crush and add, or harvest whey from yogurt, or buy a White Labs packet. How does that sound? I have never had this style so I wont know if I get it ”right”, but I love anything smoky and sour so I am looking forward to trying it.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I personally like working with dry extract more, myself, so i would do that. I actually meant wheat DME/rauch LME.
Safale 05 would be ideal over Nottingham.
You would be fine skipping hops, but if you use them, shoot for no more than 3 IBU.

Regarding the souring, this is essentially a quick kettle sour, and there's a TON of info on HBT here to help with that. I personally just generate wort, add probiotic capsules (open and dump powder; don't include gelatin capsule part), let sit for 3 days, then boil and ferment.

 

[motherofgallons]

Much appreciated, you have been very helpful, will update with how it goes