Temperature probe length

[baer19d]

I did a search for this but didn't find exactly what I was looking for. What's the optimal length for the temperature probe in the HLT and mash tun to get the most accurate readings? Also, the mash will be steam heated.

 

[TipsySaint]

You want the probe near the bottom as it will be the coldest part of the tank, assuming good stirring in the mash tun. So whatever you need to get to the bottom of your vessel in whatever manner you wish to get there is best. Stick probe, RTD or some such will all work.

 

[kal]

I'd put them in plumbing and recirculate. It's the best way to get accurate temperature readings.

That's what I did on my setup: I put The temperature probes for the Hot Liquor Tank and Mash/Lauter Tun in the plumbing at the kettle output like this:

(The Boil Kettle probe is installed directly in the kettle wall since it's not recirculated).

Historically in process control systems such as ours that involve fluid recirculating, temperature monitoring is usually done in the plumbing instead of in the kettle. This helps avoid temperature misreads due to stratification (layering). This is not an issue in the Boil Kettle as the violent boiling action continuously stirs the wort to ensure an even temperature throughout the kettle.

Stratification is most likely to occur in the Mash/Lauter Tun. A temperature probe placed in the grain through the side of the kettle would only be measuring one location. You would not know when the entire grain bed is at the desired target temperature as it heats slowly from top to bottom (assuming a HERMS or RIMS recirculating system). By placing the probe at the kettle output you ensure that the entire mash temperature is being monitored. For example, when I increase the Hot Liquor Tank temperature to 168F to perform a mash-out, the water in the Hot Liquor Tank will reach 168F before the grain in the Mash/Lauter Tun. It is only when the Mash/Lauter Tun also reads 168F that I know that the whole grain bed is at 168F. Placing the probe elsewhere would not provide me with this accuracy.

Kal

 

[baer19d]

I was initially going to go with a HERMS and put the probes in the plumbing as you suggested but now I'm thinking about controlling the mash temp with steam. I already have an electric boiler made from a 1/2 barrel keg,and it seams like a more effective method. I'm planning on recirculating the mash while the steam is on, but I suppose recirculating it the entire time is an option, that way I can put the probe in the out port. Plus, this way I won't be drilling any holes so if I don't like the steam method I can always convert it to a HERMS. Will I need a probe in the boil kettle? couldn't I control the boil without one?

I'd put them in plumbing and recirculate. It's the best way to get accurate temperature readings.

That's what I did on my setup: I put The temperature probes for the Hot Liquor Tank and Mash/Lauter Tun in the plumbing at the kettle output like this:

(The Boil Kettle probe is installed directly in the kettle wall since it's not recirculated).

Historically in process control systems such as ours that involve fluid recirculating, temperature monitoring is usually done in the plumbing instead of in the kettle. This helps avoid temperature misreads due to stratification (layering). This is not an issue in the Boil Kettle as the violent boiling action continuously stirs the wort to ensure an even temperature throughout the kettle.

Stratification is most likely to occur in the Mash/Lauter Tun. A temperature probe placed in the grain through the side of the kettle would only be measuring one location. You would not know when the entire grain bed is at the desired target temperature as it heats slowly from top to bottom (assuming a HERMS or RIMS recirculating system). By placing the probe at the kettle output you ensure that the entire mash temperature is being monitored. For example, when I increase the Hot Liquor Tank temperature to 168F to perform a mash-out, the water in the Hot Liquor Tank will reach 168F before the grain in the Mash/Lauter Tun. It is only when the Mash/Lauter Tun also reads 168F that I know that the whole grain bed is at 168F. Placing the probe elsewhere would not provide me with this accuracy.

Kal

 

[kal]

I'm planning on recirculating the mash while the steam is on, but I suppose recirculating it the entire time is an option, that way I can put the probe in the out port.

Yup. And it'll give you clearer wort too because you're vorlaufing the whole time.

Will I need a probe in the boil kettle? couldn't I control the boil without one?

You don't need one since water boils at 212F (give or take), but it depends also how you're heating the boil kettle.

If using a PID you can use a resistor instead, or sometimes simply short out the connectors with a wire. I use a SYL-2352 PID for my boil and it requires that a temperature probe be connected in order for them to work, even if you want to test and run them in manual mode (such as it done in the boil kettle). You can however set the PID SN setting to 0 to set the probe type to a 2-wire thermocouple probe and use a copper wire to short the PID terminals 4 & 5 together. The PID will then display ambient temperature and you'll be able to run the PID in manual mode. Other PIDs will be different.

Now that said, I really like having a temp probe in the boil for the following reasons:

AVOID BOIL-OVERS: I set the Boil Kettle PID alarm to sound once a temperature just below boiling is reached (such as 208F) to warn me that the wort is about to boil and that the possibility of boilover may occur by setting the kettle to 208F. When the wort temperature reaches 208F the alarm sounds, warning me. Once the alarm sounds, I switch over to manual mode at 100% duty cycle and watch carefully, stirring as needed.

HOP STANDS: Extended hop stands (a process used by new popular beers like The Alchemist's Heady Topper where hops are steeped after the boil at specific temps) are not possible if you can't hold temp. To hold temp, you need a temp probe and PID.

Kal

 

[kevreh]

I'd put them in plumbing and recirculate. It's the best way to get accurate temperature readings.

That's what I did on my setup: I put The temperature probes for the Hot Liquor Tank and Mash/Lauter Tun in the plumbing at the kettle output like this:


(The Boil Kettle probe is installed directly in the kettle wall since it's not recirculated).

..................

Kal

Kal-

I have a single vessel electric system, my kettle with element is a mash tun, hlt, and boil kettle. I BIAB. With your system, using non-insulated kettles (?) do you recirculate a few times during mashing to maintain temps or recirc the whole time? I can't remember if you have a herms, rims, or something else.

Kevin

 

[kal]

Kal-

I have a single vessel electric system, my kettle with element is a mash tun, hlt, and boil kettle. I BIAB. With your system, using non-insulated kettles (?) do you recirculate a few times during mashing to maintain temps or recirc the whole time? I can't remember if you have a herms, rims, or something else.

I recirc the mash (and the HLT water) the whole time. If you don't, you won't get accurate temp readings in the plumbing.

Kal

 

[baer19d]

It's worth an extra $15 for another RTD probe for the controlability of the boil temp.
Thanks, Mike

Yup. And it'll give you clearer wort too because y PASL1130-Pou're vorlaufing the whole time.


You don't need one since water boils at 212F (give or take), but it depends also how you're heating the boil kettle.

If using a PID you can use a resistor instead, or sometimes simply short out the connectors with a wire. I use a SYL-2352 PID for my boil and it requires that a temperature probe be connected in order for them to work, even if you want to test and run them in manual mode (such as it done in the boil kettle). You can however set the PID SN setting to 0 to set the probe type to a 2-wire thermocouple probe and use a copper wire to short the PID terminals 4 & 5 together. The PID will then display ambient temperature and you'll be able to run the PID in manual mode. Other PIDs will be different.

Now that said, I really like having a temp probe in the boil for the following reasons:

AVOID BOIL-OVERS: I set the Boil Kettle PID alarm to sound once a temperature just below boiling is reached (such as 208F) to warn me that the wort is about to boil and that the possibility of boilover may occur by setting the kettle to 208F. When the wort temperature reaches 208F the alarm sounds, warning me. Once the alarm sounds, I switch over to manual mode at 100% duty cycle and watch carefully, stirring as needed.

HOP STANDS: Extended hop stands (a process used by new popular beers like The Alchemist's Heady Topper where hops are steeped after the boil at specific temps) are not possible if you can't hold temp. To hold temp, you need a temp probe and PID.

Kal

 

[kal]

It's worth an extra $15 for another RTD probe for the controlability of the boil temp.

My thoughts exactly!

Kal

 

[NathPowe]

Sorry in advance for the threadjack.

You can however set the PID SN setting to 0 to set the probe type to a 2-wire thermocouple probe and use a copper wire to short the PID terminals 4 & 5 together. The PID will then display ambient temperature and you'll be able to run the PID in manual mode. Other PIDs will be different.

Kal

Not sure if you'll see this or not Kal, but do you know if the above solution to using an Auber 2352 without a temp sensor has any adverse effects on the unit?

I ask because I'm currently planning an E-Kettle build (with a 2352 as a controller for the elements in manual mode) and am hoping to spread out costs a bit over time. This would be a way for me to hold off on a $50+ RTD setup until I find that want/need it. I realize $50 isn't much in the grand scheme of an e-build, but $50 here, $25 there starts to add up. Plan is to start simple - main priority is ditching the propane at this point - and purchase components that will allow me to easily upgrade over time.

Anyway, thanks for reading - any info you've got on this would be helpful.

Cheers.

 

[kal]

Not sure if you'll see this or not Kal, but do you know if the above solution to using an Auber 2352 without a temp sensor has any adverse effects on the unit?

Nope. No issues at all.

I ask because I'm currently planning an E-Kettle build (with a 2352 as a controller for the elements in manual mode) and am hoping to spread out costs a bit over time. This would be a way for me to hold off on a $50+ RTD setup until I find that want/need it.

No problems at all. Simply change the setting/wiring once you have the RTD later down the road.

Good luck!

Kal

 

[NathPowe]

Nope. No issues at all.


No problems at all. Simply change the setting/wiring once you have the RTD later down the road.

Good luck!

Kal

Thanks Kal. You're the man.

Cheers.

 

[Akira]

So i currently have my temp probe in mt rims tube. Would it be beneficial to move it to the outlet on my mash tun ?

 

[kal]

So i currently have my temp probe in mt rims tube. Would it be beneficial to move it to the outlet on my mash tun ?

Depends on what purpose the temp probe serves. What is it used for?

I have a HERMS setup so I have one probe in my HLT that is used to maintain my HLT water temperature.

Then I have another on the outlet of my mash tun so that I know when my mash has reached temp. Having it on the outlet makes sense for this... If I had it on the inlet I'd have no idea when my entire mash reaches whatever temp I've set in my HLT.

Kal

 

[Akira]

Currently I use the rims to heat and maintain my mash only. So using it in the tube would mean my mash temp is correct but using it on my outlet may cause scorching while it is trying to reach the desired temp ? My HLT will be heated by a different controller and have a different heater used solely for sparge water . I have this rims set up .. www.brewhardware.com/product_p/rims.htm .

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

Yup. And it'll give you clearer wort too because you're vorlaufing the whole time.


You don't need one since water boils at 212F (give or take), but it depends also how you're heating the boil kettle.

If using a PID you can use a resistor instead, or sometimes simply short out the connectors with a wire. I use a SYL-2352 PID for my boil and it requires that a temperature probe be connected in order for them to work, even if you want to test and run them in manual mode (such as it done in the boil kettle). You can however set the PID SN setting to 0 to set the probe type to a 2-wire thermocouple probe and use a copper wire to short the PID terminals 4 & 5 together. The PID will then display ambient temperature and you'll be able to run the PID in manual mode. Other PIDs will be different.

Now that said, I really like having a temp probe in the boil for the following reasons:

AVOID BOIL-OVERS: I set the Boil Kettle PID alarm to sound once a temperature just below boiling is reached (such as 208F) to warn me that the wort is about to boil and that the possibility of boilover may occur by setting the kettle to 208F. When the wort temperature reaches 208F the alarm sounds, warning me. Once the alarm sounds, I switch over to manual mode at 100% duty cycle and watch carefully, stirring as needed.

HOP STANDS: Extended hop stands (a process used by new popular beers like The Alchemist's Heady Topper where hops are steeped after the boil at specific temps) are not possible if you can't hold temp. To hold temp, you need a temp probe and PID.

Kal

I realize this is an old thread Kal, but figured i'd ask anyways as it seems somewhat relevant.

Does the length of the BK thermowell matter? Im going to be using DS18B20 probes in a SB Elsinore build, if im screwing a 2" thermowell into a half coupler welded to the outside it seems like i'd only have an inch and a half or so of it through the pot? Is that enough do you think or should i go for a 4"?

 

[iijakii]

My personal experiences (with PT100 RTDs, not sure what the DS ones you mention are like) is that length of the probe does not matter at all. As long as it's submerged and you're mixing/recirc your water/wort it'll be accurate. If you are not mixing then you'll have ****-all for readings, regardless of length.

 

[kal]

My personal experiences (with PT100 RTDs, not sure what the DS ones you mention are like) is that length of the probe does not matter at all.

Agreed.

Kal

 

[trnitz]

I realize this is an old thread Kal, but figured i'd ask anyways as it seems somewhat relevant.

Does the length of the BK thermowell matter? Im going to be using DS18B20 probes in a SB Elsinore build, if im screwing a 2" thermowell into a half coupler welded to the outside it seems like i'd only have an inch and a half or so of it through the pot? Is that enough do you think or should i go for a 4"?

For my SB Elsinore setup, instead of using a thermowell, I went with this for my BK:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=322

A bit more expensive, but considering the cost of the rest of the system I'm putting together, a drop in the proverbial bucket...

 

[FuzzeWuzze]

For my SB Elsinore setup, instead of using a thermowell, I went with this for my BK:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=322

A bit more expensive, but considering the cost of the rest of the system I'm putting together, a drop in the proverbial bucket...

Interesting, well i already got a 2 1/2" Thermowell, i should be able to just shove my DS18B20 probe down the thermowell and call it a day. May not be as accurate as the premade one with the probe presumably attached to the thermowell, but its for the BK so who really cares its either boiling or its not