Tell me why this won't work...

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haeffnkr

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Tell my why this wont work please.

If I put a 16" pot, the inside of the boil coil diameter, and then fill the gap with water for heat transfer only. Then recirculate the wort and could even be pumped back through a stainless coil on the outside of the MT in the heated water, like a HERMS.

I would think this ramp up temps fast and keep very consistent temps.

I already have the 25 gallon pot as pictured that I dont use. I just need to find about a 20 gallon MT pot with a 16" diameter then put a drain on it through the outside of the 25 gallon pot so I can pump the wort back into the MT pot.

I already have a 30 amp controller and stainless coil.

It is either this or I will build a RIMS like augiedoggy with a cartridge heater.
I want to have some sort of full volume recirculated mash setup.
With this setup, no issues with boiling wort, gentle ramps and I have most of it already.

Thoughts?

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day_trippr

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That's just crazy enough to work ;)
It would certainly eliminate nearly all the heat loss for the mash tun, though I think you would indeed need to add the hex coil and recirculate the wort to obtain uniform temperature.
The plumbing to support that might be a pain - center drain through center drain seems awkward...

Cheers!
 
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haeffnkr

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That's just crazy enough to work ;)
It would certainly eliminate nearly all the heat loss for the mash tun, though I think you would indeed need to add the hex coil and recirculate the wort to obtain uniform temperature.
The plumbing to support that might be a pain - center drain through center drain seems awkward...

Cheers!
I would move the 25 pot center drain over and offset and put the MT keg drain in that center hole.

A keg is perfect fit and the perfect room for a HERMS coil.

What am I missing? Seems like a no brainier...

Thanks for the help.
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day_trippr

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"It's a whole new paradigm!"
(Always wanted to use that ;))

Obviously you'll be on an island with this approach - I've never read/seen anything like it.
But the more I think about it the fewer issues I can come up with. Once you add the hex and recirculation, keeping the mash tun from floating is about the worst thing I can imagine but even that's just balancing the "hlt" bath depth to the mash depth/mass - or just do the hard-plumbing (though perhaps that makes cleaning tougher)...

Cheers!
 
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haeffnkr

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I am thinking I will flip the keg and have a bottom drain through the big HLT pot and use some sort of bulkhead attachment if i want to periodically pull it out and clean the boil coil... but for the most part this will be clean in place and the MT would be secured to the big HLT pot by the bulkhead and wort weight.

Any other thoughts?

Is this system any better or worse than an auggiedoggy long cartridge RIMS or other setup as far as efficiency or ramp up time?

thanks
haeffnkr
 
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This is basically a jacketed mash tun. You will get very safe & stable temperatures, but the ramp will not be that fast. The heat transfer relies on convection through the liquids & conduction through the stainless. When summed over time, the transfer surface:liquid is much less than a recirculating system. Obviously you mentioned adding re-circulation, which would resolve the ramp issue.

This will work for mashing... but what about boiling? Conceptually this is legit, but practically I think there are some hurdles to clear. But hey, we need new methods and ideas tested - so do it!
 
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haeffnkr

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This is basically a jacketed mash tun. You will get very safe & stable temperatures, but the ramp will not be that fast. The heat transfer relies on convection through the liquids & conduction through the stainless. When summed over time, the transfer surface:liquid is much less than a recirculating system. Obviously you mentioned adding re-circulation, which would resolve the ramp issue.

This will work for mashing... but what about boiling? Conceptually this is legit, but practically I think there are some hurdles to clear. But hey, we need new methods and ideas tested - so do it!

I plan on recirculating. So assume I have a HERMS type coil in the water jacket as well the MLT surrounded bottom and sides by set temp water will the ramp times be RIMS like and resolve any issues?

What other hurdles do you see?

I will use a separate eBK to boil. I plan to heat strike full volume water in eBK then pump and underlet to the MT - recirculate / step mash full volume then pump wort back to eBK and boil/chill.
LODO is in my plans.

thanks
haeffnkr
 
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Speaking candidly, I don't see an strong advantage of the "jacketed" part of this if you are also recirculating through a HERMs coil. It seems this is extra complexity that add only slight improvement over a discrete insulated mash tun. I would try it without the HERMS and see what you get (this would be an easy test). Even if its a tad slow on the ramp, who cares really? You could also skip recirculation and add an auger to move the mash around - that might increase efficiency quite a bit, especially for a no-sparge rig.

I suppose if you wanted to sparge you could just pump the HLT water into the MT, but you will need to mind the inclination for the MT to become a boat and "float". Anyway, some niggles to work out, but I love the creativity - run some tests before committing and teach us some things!
 

day_trippr

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Assuming a 50' 1/2" ss hex is tucked between the two vessels and recirculation is used, ramp time could actually be shorter than on a conventional 3V herms rig of the same batch capacity due to less total thermal mass in the equation.
Ie: I need 12 gallons in my 20g hlt to fully immerse the 50' hex therein; I'm going to guess there would be substantially less water needed to fill that gap between the two vessels...

Cheers!
 

augiedoggy

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If you already have the costly equipment like the large kettle this would certainly work and is a good idea... as mentioned though the for things like ramping and step mashes it will be pretty slow though. its kind of like mashing in a giant electric roasting pan. If I had the choice between rims and this I would still go rims myself but different setups work and have advantages for different folks.
 
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haeffnkr

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Hi All,
Thanks for the replies. My biggest hurdle now is that I will likely struggle to find a pot big enough to fit inside the coil. I need a 20 gallon pot to hold full volume water and enough grain to end up with 13 ish gallons in the kettle and not spill over. I my eBK is an inverted keg with the drainage holes welded shut and hit holds about 17 to the rim. The pot can not be any wider than 16.5 outside diameter to fit inside the boil coil.

hmmmmm ......

So overall the consensus is that a RIMS can ramp faster than a HERMS?

thanks again
haeffnkr
 

madscientist451

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On the one hand, I like new ideas and experimenting, but on the other hand I'm thinking that you're re-inventing the wheel.
I also like the KISS philosophy: Keep it simple....stupid....
How about adding a mesh basket to mash in and improving your existing controller to keep your temps stable.
Basically copy a proven design like those used by Colorado Brewing Systems and others.
 
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haeffnkr

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On the one hand, I like new ideas and experimenting, but on the other hand I'm thinking that you're re-inventing the wheel.
I also like the KISS philosophy: Keep it simple....stupid....
How about adding a mesh basket to mash in and improving your existing controller to keep your temps stable.
Basically copy a proven design like those used by Colorado Brewing Systems and others.

I did BIAB in my eBK for years. I built that 25 eBK kettle to do the same... then I read about lodo.....whooops

I had a mash basket for that big kettle... sold it... I want clear wort and will start doing lodo brewing/mashing as well. So I want to come up with a sealed one vessel mash system.

thanks for checking in.
 
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Hi All,
Thanks for the replies. My biggest hurdle now is that I will likely struggle to find a pot big enough to fit inside the coil. I need a 20 gallon pot to hold full volume water and enough grain to end up with 13 ish gallons in the kettle and not spill over. I my eBK is an inverted keg with the drainage holes welded shut and hit holds about 17 to the rim. The pot can not be any wider than 16.5 outside diameter to fit inside the boil coil.

hmmmmm ......

So overall the consensus is that a RIMS can ramp faster than a HERMS?

thanks again
haeffnkr

I don't think you can claim one ramps faster than another. It depends on flow rate, temperature differences, power input, etc. I've said it multiple times, so what's one more... to me (personally, as in my opinion - with no goal of knocking anyone's preferences or systems) HERMs makes no sense anymore - you heat liquid to heat more liquid. Why not just heat liquid (aka RIMs). Yes, with loose controls you can't get in trouble with HERMs as the heat:liquid:liquid interface serves as a buffer, where RIMs is less forgiving for poor design.

HERMs makes sense since if you need an HLT and only want to use 2 elements aka 30A system. But even if I were building a system with an HLT, I would go three element, run the HLT on 4500W and RIMs on 1125W (both 4500W @ 240VAC elements).

If ramping speed is your goal, then you need a lot of flow and a lot of power, and RIMs @ 4500 or 5500W is probably your best way to get there, but you need to be really careful to make sure the flow doesn't fall below a threshold.
 

day_trippr

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[...]to me (personally, as in my opinion - with no goal of knocking anyone's preferences or systems) HERMs makes no sense anymore - you heat liquid to heat more liquid. Why not just heat liquid (aka RIMs). [...]

RIMS makes good sense with a full volume mash, not much sense if you're going to sparge. Why not use the vessel heating the sparge liquor to hold the mash temperature constant?

Cheers!
 
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haeffnkr

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RIMS makes good sense with a full volume mash, not much sense if you're going to sparge. Why not use the vessel heating the sparge liquor to hold the mash temperature constant?

Cheers!

I dont plan on sparging... not sure if missed your point?

thanks for the questions and I appreciate the help.

thanks haeffnkr
 

day_trippr

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Yours is a special case - I wasn't referring to your proposal, which if you go with the recirculation is clearly a HERMS rig.

My point contra-RIMS if one is going to sparge there's the need for a HLT, so why not use it as a mash heat source rather than adding yet another chunk of hardware to heat wort (ie: a RIMS tube)? Otoh, if one isn't going to sparge (hence no need for a HLT) a RIMS tube is a great solution wrt maintaining mash temperatures and providing step capability...

Cheers!
 
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Yours is a special case - I wasn't referring to your proposal, which if you go with the recirculation is clearly a HERMS rig.

My point contra-RIMS if one is going to sparge there's the need for a HLT, so why not use it as a mash heat source rather than adding yet another chunk of hardware to heat wort (ie: a RIMS tube)? Otoh, if one isn't going to sparge (hence no need for a HLT) a RIMS tube is a great solution wrt maintaining mash temperatures and providing step capability...

Cheers!

I didn't go there, but that is why (insert personal opinon language from above here) I do not use an HLT and direct heat sparge water.
 

augiedoggy

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Idk I use a rims and hlt and both at the same time off the same 30a circuit so I dont see what the inefficiency is I can start heating my sparge water independently from my mash and decide whether I do or dont perform a mash out
.. I can quickly correct or step my mash and with a herms this isn't possible to do as quickly. I constantly tinkered with my herms trying to get it to work better and now that I have a rims I would never go back.
 

day_trippr

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fwiw, my conventional 3v2p herms rig ramps a typical 10 gallon batch at 1°F per minute. I have no idea how that compares to anything but it seems fairly quick to me...

Cheers!
 

SanPancho

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Would it not be easier to use a rims -like device? Maybe a small 5gal kettle “grant” that is filled from the MT, has your heat source in it, and then gets pumped back to MT for recirc. If you insulate the mlt well, it would only need to add enough heat to compensate for losses from the recirc. Same principle as rims tube, but bigger wort mass to work with and by dialing your flow rates in, no or minimal o2 issues- just keep the recirc outlet under the surface of mash level, and a lid on the grant, no splashing.
 

augiedoggy

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fwiw, my conventional 3v2p herms rig ramps a typical 10 gallon batch at 1°F per minute. I have no idea how that compares to anything but it seems fairly quick to me...

Cheers!
For comparison My low power 1800w rims ramps at just over 2 degrees a minute.. I have to think a 5500w rims is faster.
 
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augiedoggy

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A 4500w hlt and 1800w 240v rims draw about 25a together. You could go with a 2000-2200w rims and still be safe since the pumps draw little.
 
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haeffnkr

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Would it not be easier to use a rims -like device? Maybe a small 5gal kettle “grant” that is filled from the MT, has your heat source in it, and then gets pumped back to MT for recirc. If you insulate the mlt well, it would only need to add enough heat to compensate for losses from the recirc. Same principle as rims tube, but bigger wort mass to work with and by dialing your flow rates in, no or minimal o2 issues- just keep the recirc outlet under the surface of mash level, and a lid on the grant, no splashing.
This is essentially what I am doing now.
I havea a 2 vessel Kettle - RIMS that I have used 2 times now as I progress away from BIAB.
I have a MT cooler that gravity feeds back to the eBK and is pumped back into the cooler. I have the flow set so the drain is a slower than the pump. I have a float switch in the eBK to ensure the eBK does not pump itself dry and expose the element.

I am now thinking that I should convert the cooler to a keggle bottom drain MT to allow for a taller grain bed and see how this works out for me.
I can put mash caps on both the eBK and the MT keggle to keep o2 out and I currently have the hoses below the liquid line of both vessels.

One pump for recirculating in the eBK and one to pump up to MT.

thanks for checking in
haeffnkr


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