Tell me why i cant get my efficiency up

[sicktght311]

So I consistently see people talking about getting 80%+ efficiencies with their 3vessel herms system, whether thats Spike, or SSBrewtech, or homemade, yet i cant seem to break 74-75%.

Equipment - I have 3x 10 gallon kettles in an e-herms configuration. I have a HLT with a 25foot SS herms coil, mash tun with a flat false bottom raised about 2.5" off the bottom of the kettle, and a boil kettle.

Process - I have my own grain mill and i mill to around .045 with a good crush. I attempted to mill finer, only to either end up with a stuck mash and a trickle in my recirculation, or in the end still see no change in efficiency. I usually run about 1.4-1.5quarts per lb in terms of mash thickness, although to get that i have to add about 2 extra gallons to account for the space under the false bottom. I mash in stirring vigorously to make sure the mash is nicely mixed, and no dough balls (which i never find at the end of the mash when i'm scooping out), and I recirculate on 1/2 to 3/4 speed through the entire 60 minute mash. I raise the mash temp to 168 for 10 minutes at the end of the mash (takes about 15ish minutes to get there), i reconfigure my hoses and i fly sparge. I keep about an inch of water over the top of the grain bed with a hose laying on top like the Kal system and it takes me about 45 minutes to collect my typically preboil volume of 6.75-7gallons. I used to calculate the exact amount of water needed for sparging and shut off my sparge pump when i hit that number and then let the tun drain, but now i also just run it continuously until i hit my preboil volume and i've noticed no changes in my efficiency.

My efficiency is dead on every time. 74-75% if i'm using Briess or similar 2-row as my base malt, 70% if i'm using Viking 2-row. I'm never more than 1-2 gravity points away from my target

Tell me where i'm going wrong and why i cant seem to get my efficiency up

 

[sicktght311]

Is it as simple as shooting for a 90 minute mash next time? Maybe i'm just not mashing long enough? Seems weird though considering Kal/Spike/etc all typically talk about 60 minute mashes, with a mashout

 

[Dave Sarber]

What is your mash pH?

 

[sicktght311]

What is your mash pH?

Always target a 5.2-5.3

 

[TheMadKing]

Recirculate slower and sparge longer

Also which efficiency? Mash or Brewhouse?

 

[Dave Sarber]

Go for a smaller gap setting on your mill (I typically use .031), and a longer mash.

 

[sicktght311]

Recirculate slower and sparge longer

Also which efficiency? Mash or Brewhouse?

Total Brewhouse efficiency, and if i reduce speed of the recirculation, theres not enough flow to adjust temperature through the mash. Especially in the first 5-10 minutes after doughing in when the temp drops and needs to come back up to my desired mash temp through recirculation. If its too slow, it will take entirely too long to come back up. Maybe slow down the recirculation to much slower after i'm back up at temp? But i dont see why the speed of consistent temperature liquid through the grains would affect the efficiency? Its a closed system at that point so theres no rinsing going on. Its the same whether its all static sitting in a cooler, or whether its recirculating through a coil and then back in. Its purely for mash temp consistency.

Mash time however, might try a 90 minute mash on my next beer

 

[TheMadKing]

Total Brewhouse efficiency, and if i reduce speed of the recirculation, theres not enough flow to adjust temperature through the mash. Especially in the first 5-10 minutes after doughing in when the temp drops and needs to come back up to my desired mash temp through recirculation. If its too slow, it will take entirely too long to come back up. Maybe slow down the recirculation to much slower after i'm back up at temp? But i dont see why the speed of consistent temperature liquid through the grains would affect the efficiency? Its a closed system at that point so theres no rinsing going on. Its the same whether its all static sitting in a cooler, or whether its recirculating through a coil and then back in. Its purely for mash temp consistency.

Mash time however, might try a 90 minute mash on my next beer

The speed of recirculation can cause channeling through the grain bed which will tank your efficiency.

You could dough in hotter to prevent that temperature drop so that your mash is instantly at the correct temperature. If you are doing step mashes and need to raise the mash temp rapidly then go to full flow, get up to temp, shut off the mash flow, stir up the grain bed and wait a few minutes and start recirculating at a trickle. The slower you recirculate the better your efficiency will be.

Brewhouse efficiency also accounts for water losses. If you're at 75% brewhouse then your mash efficiency is probably in the mid 80's. If you're worried about that water loss then maybe you can recover some of it by changes to your process.

I'm completely content with a 75% brewhouse efficiency and my mash efficiency at 85%

 

[sicktght311]

Go for a smaller gap setting on your mill (I typically use .031), and a longer mash.

Its my understanding that with flysparging, going too small in your gap can actually be counterproductive to your lautering and efficiency. Finer crush causes a much more compact grain bed, making channeling more probable. A coarser crush promotes more even lautering and filtering through the grain bed during sparging

 

[Dave Sarber]

I'll take your word for it, I batch sparge (if I sparge at all). The finer crush, along with a thinner mash and stirring enhance the starch conversion.

 

[Bobby_M]

First step is to measure you mash gravity to check your conversion efficiency. If that is low, its not a sparge issue.

 

[doug293cz]

First step is to measure you mash gravity to check your conversion efficiency. If that is low, its not a sparge issue.

Measure your conversion efficiency using the method here. You want to get your conversion efficiency above 95%. If you are already at the finest crush that will work in your system, then extending mash time is the way to go to increase conversion efficiency.

Brew on

 

[TheMadKing]

Measure your conversion efficiency using the method here. You want to get your conversion efficiency above 95%. If you are already at the finest crush that will work in your system, then extending mash time is the way to go to increase conversion efficiency.

Brew on

Doug,

one thing I've discovered since switching from BIAB to 3 vessel Eherms is that the finer you crush, the slower the recirculation rate needs to be to prevent channeling.

I 100% agree that a finer crush is better, on the assumption that the water is contacting all of the grain equally, but if the fine crush restricts flow, the wort will find a path of least resistance and reduce overall contact with the grain by channeling.

So there seems to be a sweet spot between a fine crush and a reasonable recirculation speed for maintaining mash temperature. I have found that to be 0.040 on my system with the absolute slowest flow rate that I can coax out of my riptide pump.

Increasing the crush size dropped my mash efficiency into the 60% range, and increasing the flow rate with the crush at 0.040 also dropped my mash efficiency to a similar level.

 

[Blazinlow86]

So I consistently see people talking about getting 80%+ efficiencies with their 3vessel herms system, whether thats Spike, or SSBrewtech, or homemade, yet i cant seem to break 74-75%.

Equipment - I have 3x 10 gallon kettles in an e-herms configuration. I have a HLT with a 25foot SS herms coil, mash tun with a flat false bottom raised about 2.5" off the bottom of the kettle, and a boil kettle.

Process - I have my own grain mill and i mill to around .045 with a good crush. I attempted to mill finer, only to either end up with a stuck mash and a trickle in my recirculation, or in the end still see no change in efficiency. I usually run about 1.4-1.5quarts per lb in terms of mash thickness, although to get that i have to add about 2 extra gallons to account for the space under the false bottom. I mash in stirring vigorously to make sure the mash is nicely mixed, and no dough balls (which i never find at the end of the mash when i'm scooping out), and I recirculate on 1/2 to 3/4 speed through the entire 60 minute mash. I raise the mash temp to 168 for 10 minutes at the end of the mash (takes about 15ish minutes to get there), i reconfigure my hoses and i fly sparge. I keep about an inch of water over the top of the grain bed with a hose laying on top like the Kal system and it takes me about 45 minutes to collect my typically preboil volume of 6.75-7gallons. I used to calculate the exact amount of water needed for sparging and shut off my sparge pump when i hit that number and then let the tun drain, but now i also just run it continuously until i hit my preboil volume and i've noticed no changes in my efficiency.

My efficiency is dead on every time. 74-75% if i'm using Briess or similar 2-row as my base malt, 70% if i'm using Viking 2-row. I'm never more than 1-2 gravity points away from my target

Tell me where i'm going wrong and why i cant seem to get my efficiency up

I think your looking for a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Your systems working well and is repeatable. Brew on and forget about getting higher efficiency. Cheers

 

[daveerickson]

Does Table 1 mean all I need to know is my grist ratio to determine the theoretical max gravity of the mash? It makes sense, but would rather not assume.

 

[TheMadKing]

Does Table 1 mean all I need to know is my grist ratio to determine the theoretical max gravity of the mash? It makes sense, but would rather not assume.

Almost correct, thats the gravity of your first wort after running off from your mash but before sparging.

 

[daveerickson]

Gotcha, makes sense. So measuring gravity of wort making it to BK before beginning sparge vs from MT. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[doug293cz]

Does Table 1 mean all I need to know is my grist ratio to determine the theoretical max gravity of the mash? It makes sense, but would rather not assume.

Correct.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

Gotcha, makes sense. So measuring gravity of wort making it to BK before beginning sparge vs from MT. Thanks for the clarification.

These two should be the same. Mash should be stirred or well vorlaufed before sampling in order to make sure the wort is well homogenized.

Brew on

 

[Soulshine2]

So I consistently see people talking about getting 80%+ efficiencies with their 3vessel herms system, whether thats Spike, or SSBrewtech, or homemade, yet i cant seem to break 74-75%.

Equipment - I have 3x 10 gallon kettles in an e-herms configuration. I have a HLT with a 25foot SS herms coil, mash tun with a flat false bottom raised about 2.5" off the bottom of the kettle, and a boil kettle.

Process - I have my own grain mill and i mill to around .045 with a good crush. I attempted to mill finer, only to either end up with a stuck mash and a trickle in my recirculation, or in the end still see no change in efficiency. I usually run about 1.4-1.5quarts per lb in terms of mash thickness, although to get that i have to add about 2 extra gallons to account for the space under the false bottom. I mash in stirring vigorously to make sure the mash is nicely mixed, and no dough balls (which i never find at the end of the mash when i'm scooping out), and I recirculate on 1/2 to 3/4 speed through the entire 60 minute mash. I raise the mash temp to 168 for 10 minutes at the end of the mash (takes about 15ish minutes to get there), i reconfigure my hoses and i fly sparge. I keep about an inch of water over the top of the grain bed with a hose laying on top like the Kal system and it takes me about 45 minutes to collect my typically preboil volume of 6.75-7gallons. I used to calculate the exact amount of water needed for sparging and shut off my sparge pump when i hit that number and then let the tun drain, but now i also just run it continuously until i hit my preboil volume and i've noticed no changes in my efficiency.

My efficiency is dead on every time. 74-75% if i'm using Briess or similar 2-row as my base malt, 70% if i'm using Viking 2-row. I'm never more than 1-2 gravity points away from my target

Tell me where i'm going wrong and why i cant seem to get my efficiency up

I see those 80-90% efficiencies too. I really dont believe them since I doubt most commercial breweries are even that high. whatever. Im sure i'll get arguments after that.
truth be told...I do 5-6 gallon batches . I crush my own at 0.035 ,twice . Usually my grain bills are up around 10-12 lbs ...so basically 2lbs per gallon of finished product. I DONT CARE about my efficiency numbers because I hit my gravities every time and my beer turns out exactly as expected.

 

[leesmith]

So I consistently see people talking about getting 80%+ efficiencies with their 3vessel herms system, whether thats Spike, or SSBrewtech, or homemade, yet i cant seem to break 74-75%.

Equipment - I have 3x 10 gallon kettles in an e-herms configuration. I have a HLT with a 25foot SS herms coil, mash tun with a flat false bottom raised about 2.5" off the bottom of the kettle, and a boil kettle.

Process - I have my own grain mill and i mill to around .045 with a good crush. I attempted to mill finer, only to either end up with a stuck mash and a trickle in my recirculation, or in the end still see no change in efficiency. I usually run about 1.4-1.5quarts per lb in terms of mash thickness, although to get that i have to add about 2 extra gallons to account for the space under the false bottom. I mash in stirring vigorously to make sure the mash is nicely mixed, and no dough balls (which i never find at the end of the mash when i'm scooping out), and I recirculate on 1/2 to 3/4 speed through the entire 60 minute mash. I raise the mash temp to 168 for 10 minutes at the end of the mash (takes about 15ish minutes to get there), i reconfigure my hoses and i fly sparge. I keep about an inch of water over the top of the grain bed with a hose laying on top like the Kal system and it takes me about 45 minutes to collect my typically preboil volume of 6.75-7gallons. I used to calculate the exact amount of water needed for sparging and shut off my sparge pump when i hit that number and then let the tun drain, but now i also just run it continuously until i hit my preboil volume and i've noticed no changes in my efficiency.

My efficiency is dead on every time. 74-75% if i'm using Briess or similar 2-row as my base malt, 70% if i'm using Viking 2-row. I'm never more than 1-2 gravity points away from my target

Tell me where i'm going wrong and why i cant seem to get my efficiency up

Have you used Rahr 2-Row?

 

[Bobby_M]

I see those 80-90% efficiencies too. I really dont believe them since I doubt most commercial breweries are even that high. whatever. Im sure i'll get arguments after that.
truth be told...I do 5-6 gallon batches . I crush my own at 0.035 ,twice . Usually my grain bills are up around 10-12 lbs ...so basically 2lbs per gallon of finished product. I DONT CARE about my efficiency numbers because I hit my gravities every time and my beer turns out exactly as expected.

When I used a cooler and double batch sparged, it was rare to get under mid 80s brewhouse efficiency. Low ABV beers were over 90. Was I lying or mismeasuring? I agree with the notion of not really caring.

 

[mashpaddled]

When you test the gravity of runnings are you cooling the wort first or are you accurately measuring the temperature of the sample before temperature correcting the gravity reading?

I know that might seem like a dumb question but I haven't seen it mentioned and could easily result in an incorrect reading up or down. A 150F sample reading could calculate ten points low on efficiency if you don't make the temperature correction before calculating efficiency. Vice versa I've seen people claim 90+ efficiency only to see them explain that they put the sample on the counter for half an hour and apply a temperature correction to mash temperatures which will overshoot efficiency.

Higher efficiency is a badge of honor but if you like the beer you produce now why worry about it? There is always the risk that you chase higher efficiency and end up liking your beer less.

 

[TheMadKing]

When you test the gravity of runnings are you cooling the wort first or are you accurately measuring the temperature of the sample before temperature correcting the gravity reading?

I know that might seem like a dumb question but I haven't seen it mentioned and could easily result in an incorrect reading up or down. A 150F sample reading could calculate ten points low on efficiency if you don't make the temperature correction before calculating efficiency. Vice versa I've seen people claim 90+ efficiency only to see them explain that they put the sample on the counter for half an hour and apply a temperature correction to mash temperatures which will overshoot efficiency.

Higher efficiency is a badge of honor but if you like the beer you produce now why worry about it? There is always the risk that you chase higher efficiency and end up liking your beer less.

I use a refractometer so it takes about 2 minutes to cool the 3 drops of wort on the glass. I get 85%-90% MASH efficiency (meaning sugar in my kettle / total extract potential of my grain), but my brewhouse efficiency is always closer to 75%. I suspect that most people claiming 85-90% efficiency are either talking about their mash efficiency, or are using BIAB and minimizing boil off then dumping all of the trub into the fermenter so there's minimal water loss throughout the process.

 

[bracconiere]

I suspect that most people claiming 85-90% efficiency are either talking about their mash efficiency, or are using BIAB and minimizing boil off then dumping all of the trub into the fermenter so there's minimal water loss throughout the process.

i got 10 gallons of 1.070 wort from 20.5lb's malt on one of my last batches....but i do dump the whole boil kettle into the fermenter.....

typical, brew day for me...no recirculation, and just a 2 vessel, colander fly sparge...and grain milled practically to flour, with a bazooka tube in round cooler...(the reason it's more then 10 gallons into fermenter, my immersion chiller was leaking into the pot)

 

[eric19312]

IMO 75% repeatable brewhouse efficiency is a good place to be. You get there by having 95-100% conversion efficiency...convert all your starch to sugar...then 85% total mash efficiency...some of those sugars were left in the grain bed...and finally 75% brewhouse efficiency cause you left some more sugars in the kettle with hops and trub.

 

[TheMadKing]

i got 10 gallons of 1.070 wort from 20.5lb's malt on one of my last batches....but i do dump the whole boil kettle into the fermenter.....

typical, brew day for me...no recirculation, and just a 2 vessel, colander fly sparge...and grain milled practically to flour, with a bazooka tube in round cooler...(the reason it's more then 10 gallons into fermenter, my immersion chiller was leaking into the pot)

View attachment 652097

There's something wrong with how you have that set up

Your BH efficiency and mash efficiency shouldn't be the same unless you have 0 volume losses anywhere in your system, which can't be realistic based on grain absorption alone, so something is a little screwy in your BeerSmith settings I think

 

[eric19312]

Efficiency doesn’t care about water...it’s always about the sugars or potential sugars. So sure mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency can technically be the same if every bit of sugar that came out of the mash ended up in the fermentor.

 

[TheMadKing]

Efficiency doesn’t care about water...it’s always about the sugars or potential sugars. So sure mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency can technically be the same if every bit of sugar that came out of the mash ended up in the fermentor.

Yep I realized that right after I said it and edited the above post

BH efficiency does account for final wort volume since some of the wort absorbed by the grain does remove sugars that could have ended up in the kettle

So if brewhouse efficiency = mash efficiency * lauter efficiency, the only way that BH = ME is if the lauter is 100% efficient meaning the total volume of water used = the total volume of wort collected with 100% of the mash sugars ending up in the kettle

 

[eric19312]

You can see from this recent batch data...

Mash efficiency is determined by how much of the potential sugar makes it into the kettle and brewhouse efficiency is determined by how much of the potential sugar makes it into your fermenter. I chose on this batch to leave a quite a bit of hops and trub in the kettle plus lost a couple cups of wort in the transfer lines. At end of boil I had about 18.25 gallons in kettle, but only got 16.25 gallons into the fermenter.

 

[eric19312]

Yep I realized that right after I said it and edited the above post

BH efficiency does account for final wort volume since some of the wort absorbed by the grain does remove sugars that could have ended up in the kettle

So if brewhouse efficiency = mash efficiency * lauter efficiency, the only way that BH = ME is if the lauter is 100% efficient meaning the total volume of water used = the total volume of wort collected with 100% of the mash sugars ending up in the kettle

No this isn’t right...at least not in BeerSmith usage. BH will equal ME if the entire kettle goes Int the fermenter. No line losses, no trub or hops left in kettle.

 

[TheMadKing]

View attachment 652104

You can see from this recent batch data...

Mash efficiency is determined by how much of the potential sugar makes it into the kettle and brewhouse efficiency is determined by how much of the potential sugar makes it into your fermenter. I chose on this batch to leave a quite a bit of hops and trub in the kettle plus lost a couple cups of wort in the transfer lines. At end of boil I had about 18.25 gallons in kettle, but only got 16.25 gallons into the fermenter.

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency

 

[eric19312]

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Understanding_Efficiency

Fair enough. Maybe I’m using it wrong. But I don’t see conversion efficiency or lauter efficiency in BeerSmith. There is mash efficiency and overall efficiency. I’ve been mistakenly confusing overall efficiency with brewhouse efficiency. Now I’ve got to go look at desktop version and see what else I’ve got goofed up.

 

[TheMadKing]

Fair enough. Maybe I’m using it wrong. But I don’t see conversion efficiency or lauter efficiency in BeerSmith. There is mash efficiency and overall efficiency. I’ve been mistakenly confusing overall efficiency with brewhouse efficiency. Now I’ve got to go look at desktop version and see what else I’ve got goofed up.

I'm fairly certain that what beersmith calls mash efficiency is the same as conversion efficiency, so then it multiplies that number by the lauter efficiency (based on volume and SG of wort in the kettle) to give you a BH efficiency.

It's still measuring how much sugar you got out of the grain as you said, but it accounts for some of that sugar already being dissolved in solution and getting stuck in your system or absorbed into the grain

So if I see a 92% in both BH and mash efficiency in BeerSmith I take that to mean that the sparge was 100% effective and none of the wort was left in the grain or the lines. BIAB with squeezing gets close but even then it's only 95% efficient at lautering, until someone invents a BIAB spin cycle machine

 

[eric19312]

I'm fairly certain that what beersmith calls mash efficiency is the same as conversion efficiency, so then it multiplies that number by the lauter efficiency (based on volume and SG of wort in the kettle) to give you a BH efficiency.

It's still measuring how much sugar you got out of the grain as you said, but it accounts for some of that sugar already being dissolved in solution and getting stuck in your system or absorbed into the grain

So if I see a 92% in both BH and mash efficiency in BeerSmith I take that to mean that the sparge was 100% effective and none of the wort was left in the grain or the lines. BIAB with squeezing gets close but even then it's only 95% efficient at lautering, until someone invents a BIAB spin cycle machine

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/11/0...vs-mash-efficiency-in-all-grain-beer-brewing/

Brad uses the concepts a little different than Braukaiser. In Beersmith mash efficiency really is Kaiser's brewhouse efficiency (conversion x lauter). Brad goes one step further in his brewhouse efficiency to talk about downstream losses in the system.

 

[bracconiere]

unless you have 0 volume losses anywhere in your system,

the only thing left is the yeast at the bottom of the fermenter.....i don't have a spigot in my boil kettle, so i just pan it into my fermenter then dump it once it's light enough, i siphon off the yeast from the fermenter....so out of a 10 gal batch i get two full 5 gal cornies, with 8-9% beer........and i can pretty much guarantee that's my OG...within couple points, because i don't take into consideration the little water raise around the hydrometer.......lol

i have no idea how my mash is...i just sparge until i have a full boil kettle to boil down.....but anyway, like my calorie counting, it's an art, based on science....last year i burned 2820 calories sitting on my ass drinking all day, then 2920 with working, i think i'm measuring something wrong now, because it dropped to 2620....but the scale and me measuring doesn't tell a lie...

but using that calculation i can control my weight none-the-less, just like how i can tell i use less malt for the same ABV.....

 

[doug293cz]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/11/0...vs-mash-efficiency-in-all-grain-beer-brewing/

Brad uses the concepts a little different than Braukaiser. In Beersmith mash efficiency really is Kaiser's brewhouse efficiency (conversion x lauter). Brad goes one step further in his brewhouse efficiency to talk about downstream losses in the system.

Correct. And BrewersFriend follows BS on definition of Brewhouse Efficiency. BrewersFriend does use the term "Pre-Boil Efficiency" for what BS calls "Mash Efficiency". Both are equal to Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency.

Since most HBT users are more familiar with BeerSmith and BrewersFriend than they are with the writings of Braukaiser, I suggest that we use the BS/BF terminology. If you insist on using a different terminology, then you should also give the definitions you are using in order to prevent confusion.

Brew on

 

[TheMadKing]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2014/11/0...vs-mash-efficiency-in-all-grain-beer-brewing/

Brad uses the concepts a little different than Braukaiser. In Beersmith mash efficiency really is Kaiser's brewhouse efficiency (conversion x lauter). Brad goes one step further in his brewhouse efficiency to talk about downstream losses in the system.

Well now I need to look at my equipment setup, thanks!

 

[TheMadKing]

Correct. And BrewersFriend follows BS on definition of Brewhouse Efficiency. BrewersFriend does use the term "Pre-Boil Efficiency" for what BS calls "Mash Efficiency". Both are equal to Conversion Efficiency times Lauter Efficiency.

Since most HBT users are more familiar with BeerSmith and BrewersFriend than they are with the writings of Braukaiser, I suggest that we use the BS/BF terminology. If you insist on using a different terminology, then you should also give the definitions you are using in order to prevent confusion.

Brew on

Thanks for clarifying Doug, and agreed on the apples to apples comparisons, my apologies for the confusion

 

[eric19312]

I do still wish BS would add in conversion efficiency. Would be nice to have automatic estimate of gravity in mash before sparge/lauter that indicated 100% conversion.