TD5 DC Stainless Pump

[AnOldUR]

Had enough Amazon reward points to cover this pump and was looking for more whirlpooling flow rate, so made the purchase. Did a few test runs and then brewed with it this weekend. It worked flawlessly pumping boiling wort for 15 minutes to sanitize and then for a 60 minute whirlpool. (With 10oz of whole leaf hops in the kettle.) Pleased with the results, although I'm still playing with the set-up. It's rated at 6 GPM compared to Chuggers 7 GPM and has comparible head.

I was hoping to get some discussion going with anyone who's using one or is planning to. How are you using it? What are you powering it with?

 

[augiedoggy]

Had enough Amazon reward points to cover this pump and was looking for more whirlpooling flow rate, so made the purchase. Did a few test runs and then brewed with it this weekend. It worked flawlessly pumping boiling wort for 15 minutes to sanitize and then for a 60 minute whirlpool. (With 10oz of whole leaf hops in the kettle.) Pleased with the results, although I'm still playing with the set-up. It's rated at 6 GPM compared to Chuggers 7 GPM and has comparible head.

I was hoping to get some discussion going with anyone who's using one or is planning to. How are you using it? What are you powering it with?

Do they sell the replacement parts for it yet like the chugger? I think this , the fact that you need to buy a separate dc powersupply capable of at least 17v for full output from what I understand for the solar mppt power controller inside to do its magic at full potential. All that and the higher price than a chugger has been the real deal breaker for this pump taking off IMHO... I mention this in the spirit of constructive criticism as I'm hoping you have some good points to share about advantages it may have? I am a fan of the cheaper DC pumps myself as you know..

Its still unclear to me as to how the impeller/magnet works without the wort coming in contact with the magnet area as others have claimed (since this is a centrifugal pump unlike the chugger)... I would have to assume there is some sort of ball bearings inside the stainless magnet housing? if the magnet is exposed I would be Leary of the poor "foodgrade coating" that topflo used on the Ts5 which appears to flake off into the wort during the first couple months of use from pics shared in another thread.
Hopefully you can shed light on the FACTS of how this pump functions. so we dont continue to base our comments and opinions on educated guesses and assumptions based upon the facts from the other topflo plastic version of this pump.

 

[orangehero]

since this is a centrifugal pump unlike the chugger

March/Chugger is a centrifugal pump.

I think the only advantage a DC pump has is the ability to control flow by slowing the motor down with a PWM instead of restricting it with a ball valve.

March does also sell a DC motor for their pump heads.

 

[augiedoggy]

March/Chugger is a centrifugal pump.

Yes your Coreect I meant that the chugger (and march) pumps have a separate motor and sealed head unlike the TD5 which has an impeller thats attached to a magnet through a keyed? shaft and appears to function like the smaller pumps that use the liquid for lubrication on the shaft and between the magnet and coil... if this really does have a sealed off impeller section than its unique and im kind of curious how it works.

 

[orangehero]

The March/Chugger also uses the pumped liquid as lubrication for the impeller shaft, hence the warnings against running it dry.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "sealed off impeller section". The March/Chugger pump head is sealed off and the impeller magnetically coupled. Commercial sanitary centrifugal pumps are not magnetically coupled like the March/Chugger, rather they just have a shaft seal.

 

[augiedoggy]

The March/Chugger also uses the pumped liquid as lubrication for the impeller shaft, hence the warnings against running it dry.

I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "sealed off impeller section". The March/Chugger pump head is sealed off and the impeller magnetically coupled. Commercial sanitary centrifugal pumps are not magnetically coupled like the March/Chugger, rather they just have a shaft seal.

I meant exactly what you said... the impeller has a separate magnet that magnetically couples to a separate sealed off magnet in the pump motor the replaceable head is essentually sealed off and independant to the pump motor unlike this pump which appears to have the impeller directly connected to the main motor magnet assy. Just like the other pumps like the plastic TS5 although that pump does not have a sealed off motor since there are no bearings. Instead it uses the liquid inside the main motor magnet chamber to lubricate the pumps shaft.

If a chugger or march runs dry the motor is not harmed just the replaceable/ rebuild able head unlike the plastic smaller DC variants

 

[augiedoggy]

Basically I would like to know if this td5 also has a sealed shaft like the larger commercial pumps you mention and if that's the case it would have bearings in the motor... from the pics and diagrams I saw this doesn't look like the case dispite the literature indicating otherwise..

 

[AnOldUR]

Pulled my US Solar TD5 apart, but it's hard to tell everything. Unlike the cheaper US Solar pumps the magnets spin in a stainless steel housing as does the impeller. There's a retaining ring on the end of the ceramic shaft. I was able to take that off. I thought this would allow me to pull the magnet out of the stainless housing, but wasn't able to. I can't find an assembly drawing anywhere to see how it goes together, but US Solar claims that no liquid come in contact with the magnet. The best I could do is pour water between the impeller and the face plate to see if it filled the chamber between the magnet and the outer stainless housing. It did not. There appears to be some kind of seal that isolates the magnet from fluid contact and keep the components from coming apart.

One other point of discussion has been the flow rate and there seems to be some lack of understanding on how this pump works and the graphs available on the website. The circuitry of this pump is a lot more advanced than a Chugger. The flow rate can be controlled by a rotary dial on the pump. The way I understand it, you can only get the maximum rate of 25 LPM if you supply it with 24 volts and the amperage is available to get it to 25 watts. The circuitry lets it run on far less when being driven by solar panels and low light conditions, but for our purposes its output depend on the power supply used. I have been using an old power supply from a dead iRobot that's 22V/1.25amps. Today I ordered a cheap 24V/6amp power supply. Probably won’t make much difference, but might as well be getting the most from the pump.

 

[augiedoggy]

double post

 

[augiedoggy]

Pulled my US Solar TD5 apart, but it's hard to tell everything. Unlike the cheaper US Solar pumps the magnets spin in a stainless steel housing as does the impeller. There's a retaining ring on the end of the ceramic shaft. I was able to take that off. I thought this would allow me to pull the magnet out of the stainless housing, but wasn't able to. I can't find an assembly drawing anywhere to see how it goes together, but US Solar claims that no liquid come in contact with the magnet. The best I could do is pour water between the impeller and the face plate to see if it filled the chamber between the magnet and the outer stainless housing. It did not. There appears to be some kind of seal that isolates the magnet from fluid contact and keep the components from coming apart.

One other point of discussion has been the flow rate and there seems to be some lack of understanding on how this pump works and the graphs available on the website. The circuitry of this pump is a lot more advanced than a Chugger. The flow rate can be controlled by a rotary dial on the pump. The way I understand it, you can only get the maximum rate of 25 LPM if you supply it with 24 volts and the amperage is available to get it to 25 watts. The circuitry lets it run on far less when being driven by solar panels and low light conditions, but for our purposes its output depend on the power supply used. I have been using an old power supply from a dead iRobot that's 22V/1.25amps. Today I ordered a cheap 24V/6amp power supply. Probably won’t make much difference, but might as well be getting the most from the pump.

Thanks for the pics and review
From what I read of the motor its the same type of circuitry as used in the cheaper motor. It uses mppt buck /boost technology to take anything over 17 volts and use it towards boosting the amperage... The same technology as I use in my solar panel controller for my popup trailer .... it works.
I still think the price point is too high And I believe the manufacturer (Topsflo) has different flow ratings than us solar... this same td4 head may be sold with different size motors like the TS5..

 

[AnOldUR]

And I believe the manufacturer (Topsflo) has different flow ratings than us solar... this same td4 head may be sold with different size motors like the TS5..

I've also noticed that the US Solar uses a different plastic than the Topsflo. In the "cheap pump" thread there's a picture (copied below) that shows a different color plastic used for the impeller. I don't know what it is, or if it something more compliant to food safe claims, but it does indicates that US Solar is having their pumps built to different standards.

Topsflo . . . .

US Solar . . . .

 

[augiedoggy]

the TD5 is a topflo pump as is many of the pumps us solar sells... They are just a distributor. doesnt your pump have topsflo molded into the motor casing at the bottom? or is it covered by a sticker? it is very possible that us solar has them speced differently for them just as "great brew eh" claimed they did.

from what I have read from the manufacturer the impeller is the tan pps that the cheaper pumps and food grade tan pumps topsflo also makes is made of (chugger uses pps as well). I thought I saw one site reference the impeller was viton but that is a synthetic rubber so they may have been mistaken with thew seals...
the us solar version appear to have an abs? plastic impeller curious why they would go with a cheaper non food grade plastic when the original was already the food grade stuff the industry uses ? maybe its a US solar "upgrade" or maybe topflo just switched suppliers and the color of the pps plastic changed (if they are still pps)

http://topsflo.en.made-in-china.com...ilar-Sid-Pump-Pressure-10-Bar-Solar-Pump.html

http://www.aliexpress.com/store/pro...umps-Brand-Name-Pumps/1332185_1922200347.html

and here are the manufacturers specs..(notice the motor actually runs on 17v ideally) and its 5.3 gpm max flow.... also notice they say viton impeller and listed below further down on the page they picture the tan pps impeller (supposedly the pump has been redesigned since the early version of this stainless model came out and greatbrew started selling them a few years back)

They also state it has a "half closed impeller" which I was curious as to what they mean. and why use the "fine ceramic shaft" is the pump has bearings and does not use liquid for lubrication??

http://topsflo-en.buy.opencroquet.o...ion-solar-pump-solar-water-heater-system.html

 

[AnOldUR]

It's hard to figure out what goes on in China, but from your link above it looks like Sid Pump is the manufacture and Topsflo and US Solar are different levels of distributors. Possibly one is a China distributor and one is a US distributor? But it looks like the pumps are built to slightly different specs.

Sid Pump, DC Pump, Brushless DC Pump manufacturers / suppliers in China, offering Topsflo Td5 Solar DC Pump

The picture below is a Chugger. Looks like they uses the same impeller plastic as the pump distributed by US Solar.

 

[augiedoggy]

It's hard to figure out what goes on in China, but from your link above it looks like Sid Pump is the manufacture and Topsflo and US Solar are different levels of distributors. Possibly one is a China distributor and one is a US distributor? But it looks like the pumps are built to slightly different specs.


The picture below is a Chugger. Looks like they uses the same impeller plastic as the pump distributed by US Solar.

yeah I was in the process of editing my post when you posted this... Its likely still pps it comes in black as well the chugger impeller is... china is strange they are further ahead in the shell game but its getting to be the same way here with X making Ys product and one never knowing who really made or designed what...

 

[AnOldUR]

...its getting to be the same way here with X making Ys product and one never knowing who really made or designed what...

I can attest to that. I make a living with a small machine shop at my house. I do mostly military and pharmaceutical work for big name companies. Thing is, I’m way down on the distribution chain. The parts get passed through many hands before seeing the one that gets an official production name tied to it. The end user would be shocked that some poor smuck made their "high-end” part in his one car garage.

 

[AnOldUR]

I requested some information about the output of the US Solar TD5 and its settings to get the claim of, "Billowy flow rate 25LPM at 24V DC is available".

Hello,

This pump allows you to select the power level or set it to automatic
for using MPPT with a PV panel directly. For maximum flow you should set
it to 25W (position 4-4). If connected to a 24V source the current draw
would be slightly over 1 A so your supply should be capable of at least
1.1 A.

Thank You,

HELIATOS Support
661 7SOLAR7 (661-776-5277)

edit:
My 24V power supply was delivered.
With the recommended 4-4 setting I got a good 20% increase in the output of the pump.

 

[augiedoggy]

I requested some information about the output of the US Solar TD5 and its settings to get the claim of, "Billowy flow rate 25LPM at 24V DC is available".



edit:
My 24V power supply was delivered.
With the recommended 4-4 setting I got a good 20% increase in the output of the pump.

good to hear

the mppt controller is kind of a deal breaker for me since I like to use pwm controllers to control flow with a knob vs the ballvalves and the mppt technology would be fighting the pwm effect...

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . the mppt technology would be fighting the pwm effect...

Hadn't thought about that, but even with my smaller 12V US Solar pump, I've used a valve on the output side to control flowrate. I may continue to use the 12V pump to recirculate the mash. The 3 GPM flow is more than enough for that, but for whirlpool in the kettle, this pump works much better. Even before the new power supply, I noticed faster chilling on my last batch. (Disclaimer: ground water temperature has been dropping also.)

I set up and ran a test this morning before work to make sure there wouldn't be any problem with over heating or high voltage with the 12V power supply. The TD5 circuitry will shut down to prevent damage in either of those cases or with dry running. I brought 8 gallons of water to a boil and let it continue to boil for a full hour with the pump whirlpooling the whole time. No problems, so it'll be seeing wort next.

 

[augiedoggy]

you use the black topsflo and or topflo 12v clones right? if so they will actually run better on the 24v supply as well since they also have 17v motors and mppt buck/boost circuitry... something to keep in mind since it would make things easier to use the same supply for all of them.

 

[AnOldUR]

black topsflo and or topflo 12v clones . . . they will actually run better on the 24v supply as well since they also have 17v motors and mppt buck/boost circuitry... something to keep in mind since it would make things easier to use the same supply for all of them.

So, I was thinking this would be great, but before giving it a try I thought I'd go back to the source.

Got a reply this morning:

One more question. I also have your TS5 15PV-SS-NPT pump and use a 12V power supply for that. For this pumps application, the flow rate is fine, but someone told me that because of the mppt circuitry, I could also run it on 24V without damaging it. Is this true? It would be easier to use one power supply if this were the case.

Hello,

The TS5 has undergone several design changes over the past several
years. The answer to your question depends on how long ago you purchased
the TS5. The more recent pumps (1 year or less) can withstand 24V
adequately, but it is right at the limit of what they can take. Older
ones will burn out after a few hours. However even with the newer ones
there is some risk that they burn out as there seems to be no safety factor.
My recommendation is that if the TS5 is working on 12V and you already
have a 12V supply to leave it running on 12V. Running it on 24V will
most likely be ok, but in rare instances won't work for very long.

Thank You,

HELIATOS Support
661 7SOLAR7 (661-776-5277)

 

[augiedoggy]

So, I was thinking this would be great, but before giving it a try I thought I'd go back to the source.

Got a reply this morning:

I have a clone that I bought just over a year ago and remember the specs saying 12-24v I guess I shouldnt have assumes the ts5s were all the same way but yeah I have read that 24v is the absolute max that the 12V-24V pumps with the mppt controllers can run on. If I remember correctly its because many solar panels are about 17v natively when used with a 12v (14v) system and if run directly off the panels can see 17-18v in direct sun.

 

[BeezyB]

Been following these pump threads for a while as I decide which one is best for me. I will be using a pump for ebiab recirc during mash and recirc/whirlpool with IC chiller.
A few questions:
- is it now agreed that the td5 appears to be food safe at boiling temps
- wouldn't one benefit of the td5 (albeit small) be noise level, those td5's seem very quiet from the videos I've seen. I brew inside near a tv area so it's a consideration for the wife/kid more than me.
- another advantage in a single vessel system is ability to mount the pump inline ( on the kettle outlet)for a compact footprint...true?

Thanks for any feedback you can provide.

 

[augiedoggy]

Been following these pump threads for a while as I decide which one is best for me. I will be using a pump for ebiab recirc during mash and recirc/whirlpool with IC chiller.
A few questions:
- is it now agreed that the td5 appears to be food safe at boiling temps
- wouldn't one benefit of the td5 (albeit small) be noise level, those td5's seem very quiet from the videos I've seen. I brew inside near a tv area so it's a consideration for the wife/kid more than me.
- another advantage in a single vessel system is ability to mount the pump inline ( on the kettle outlet)for a compact footprint...true?

Thanks for any feedback you can provide.

All 3 of your points are correct although im not sure how much quieter it is...
one possible disadvantage which has been reported by people using these pumps is the pump shuts down if it reaches a certain temp (safety feature) even the clone I use does this and its caused me to have to switch pumps (the $20 24v tan food grade pumps do not do this).

Also dont forget you want to source a 12-18v powersupply (17v will ideally give best performance although higher ampherage 12v voltage "should" give equal performance if the pump uses a real mppt controller and not just a 555 chip as many falsely advertised mppt products do.) The idea behind all this is the mppt takes the varying voltage from the solar panel and steps it up to 17v when it drops at the panel.

 

[BeezyB]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was under the impression that these things were whisper quiet. Since noise level is a top concern due to my set up, I wonder if anyone who has used a chugger and td5 can weigh in?

Also, the 24v tan pump is still a consideration for me, my question on that unit is- if I installed it in the valve of my kettle and then used a stainless tee ( where my temp probe is located) directly installed on the outlet of the pump (vertical orientation) would it be able to support the weight without breaking?

Thanks

 

[augiedoggy]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was under the impression that these things were whisper quiet. Since noise level is a top concern due to my set up, I wonder if anyone who has used a chugger and td5 can weigh in?

Also, the 24v tan pump is still a consideration for me, my question on that unit is- if I installed it in the valve of my kettle and then used a stainless tee ( where my temp probe is located) directly installed on the outlet of the pump (vertical orientation) would it be able to support the weight without breaking?

Thanks

I mount my pumps directly to the tee you mentioned with camlocks... and no neither are whisper quiet...

 

[beernutz]

Had enough Amazon reward points to cover this pump and was looking for more whirlpooling flow rate, so made the purchase. Did a few test runs and then brewed with it this weekend. It worked flawlessly pumping boiling wort for 15 minutes to sanitize and then for a 60 minute whirlpool. (With 10oz of whole leaf hops in the kettle.) Pleased with the results, although I'm still playing with the set-up. It's rated at 6 GPM compared to Chuggers 7 GPM and has comparible head.

I was hoping to get some discussion going with anyone who's using one or is planning to. How are you using it? What are you powering it with?

The Topsflow TD5 SS-NPT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Water...C-/221629371626?ssPageName=ADME:B:BOC:US:1123) appears to be the same pump sold by greatbreweh (http://greatbreweh.com/Beer_Pump.html).

I bought 2 greatbreweh pumps a couple of years ago and they both worked great at least until I dropped one of them on concrete and its input broke off.

I was going to just replace it with one from greatbreweh but I did some research and figured out that greatbreweh is using the Topsflow TD5 SS-NPT and you can buy those on ebay for $69.99 buy-it-now (or you can make them an offer) with free shipping which is the same price greatbreweh charges except they want $18 shipping.

Again, the pumps are great but don't drop them on a hard surface.

 

[AnOldUR]

The Topsflow TD5 SS-NPT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Water...C-/221629371626?ssPageName=ADME:B:BOC:US:1123) appears to be the same pump sold by greatbreweh (http://greatbreweh.com/Beer_Pump.html).

This link is to a TS5, not a TD5. Not the same pump.

I was going to just replace it with one from greatbreweh but I did some research and figured out that greatbreweh is using the Topsflow TD5 SS-NPT and you can buy those on ebay for $69.99 buy-it-now (or you can make them an offer) with free shipping which is the same price greatbreweh charges except they want $18 shipping.

Do you have a link? That would be a great price if it is a TD5.

 

[augiedoggy]

The Topsflow TD5 SS-NPT (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Solar-Water...C-/221629371626?ssPageName=ADME:B:BOC:US:1123) appears to be the same pump sold by greatbreweh (http://greatbreweh.com/Beer_Pump.html).

I bought 2 greatbreweh pumps a couple of years ago and they both worked great at least until I dropped one of them on concrete and its input broke off.

I was going to just replace it with one from greatbreweh but I did some research and figured out that greatbreweh is using the Topsflow TD5 SS-NPT and you can buy those on ebay for $69.99 buy-it-now (or you can make them an offer) with free shipping which is the same price greatbreweh charges except they want $18 shipping.

Again, the pumps are great but don't drop them on a hard surface.

yeah theres a few other threads already reviewing the Ts5... you can get them for as little as $30 with plastic instead of stainless threads (which makes no practical difference on a plastic pump.)

Great brew advertizes that their pumps are food grade because they take the solar pump and have the magnet clear coated with some sort of coating which actually starts to flake off within the first dozen uses or so sending the coating into your beer and leaving an exposed magnet which is not foodgrade... on of the other threads show pictures of the coatingas it was breaking down and fallingoff the magnet.. It seems that its basically a sales gimmick... greatbrew claimed it had an improved version coming out but I dont know if it ever happened...

this thread is about the stainless headed TD5 with a different sealed off magnet system which looks to be actually designed with food grade use in mind unlike this pump with has the same bare magnet mounted in a plastic channel just with a stainless head. (again no practical advantage other then if you arent going to mount it the pump will survive being dropped better)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/High-Temper...525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27eb8960d5

 

[rudylyon57]

Joining this old post to see what happens. I just hooked up a TD5 running on 24vdc with a pwm speed controller. I notice that only 1/3 turn on pwm takes pump to full speed. I have not checked motor voltage at the 1/3 turn point. Ideally I would like a full turn to get to 100% speed. Do you think a lower voltage power supply, such as 12 vdc, would give the control wanted.

 

[augiedoggy]

Did you order one of the new style TD5 pumps from brewpi which is designed to be used with pwm speed controllers or are you trying to use the old original Style designed to be powered from solar panels that uses mppt technology to counteract what you'd be trying to do with a Pwm speed controller? I just bought two of the actual TD5 designed to be used for beer brewing and so far the only person I know of who sells them is brewpi but I see the other American vendors like more beer and Brew Hardware are clearancing them probably to Purge their stock so they can carry the improved version designed to be controlled this way.
The problem is the mppt controllers are designed to take varying voltage is coming in from the solar panel and converting them to amperage to power the pump consistently regardless this directly messes with the pwm signal this has been brought up many times before but it always seems to get down played.