Taste: Commercial vs Home

[liquidavalon]

I just finished my first ever cider batch just a few days ago. I used the ' 5 Day Sweet Country Cider ' recipe. I know that it is young and I was very impatient with the fermentation process ( needless to say I have learned much with this first batch that I will correct and perfect in the next ). Since it is so young I expected more of the apple taste character to come through and it didn't. It tasted like juice with alcohol in it, which is great and all but you couldn't really tell what kind of juice...so this is my question(s) to all who read this and that care to take the time to answer:

With Commercially mass produced ( and small ciderys as well producing larger quantities of cider ) most achieve this crisp, wonderful apple flavor...this perfect sweet or dry mouthfeel and a flawless amber color.

Are the above attributes mentioned natural? Or do they come to this cider profile through coloring, back sweetening and adding flavor.

We all at one point in our lives sat down with our favorite cider and said to ourselves, " I wonder if I could make a cider that tastes like this...a clone perhaps?? " But...can it be achieved w/o ruining the process and purity of making hard cider at home?

Basically, can a person make a hard apple cider that retains the apple taste profile that is in harmonious balance with the sweet/dry, amber color of our commercial favorites? Maybe I am too much of a purist when it comes to olde world traditions of making things...wanting them to be all natural.

( forgive me for rambling on...just thought that if I have thought about this maybe others have as well ) Thank you for your patience.

 

[Insomniac]

Yes, there is no reason not to have your cider look like perfectly clear apple juice with a dry but crisp appley taste. But the thing with alcohol is that when young, it hasn't blended properly so you get an over powering taste of alcohol that hides everything else. As it ages the alcohol blends in and the flavour returns. Leave your cider for 6 months and see how much of a difference it makes. Some of the cheaper sparkling and sweet ciders are sweetend artificially but most arn't (at least not over here).

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

In all honesty, I never really drank commercial ciders over the years. We did drink quite a few "black velvets" (poorman's) at the local, but I never did drink cider's straight up.

So my opinion is really only limited to basically what they had on draught. My ciders don't really have as much carbonation and they are dry but not like a white wine.

I still think my cider tastes like the original juice but without any sugar in it. It's got plenty of apple taste left at 1.004 or so. It's just apple juice, so there really isn't any mouthfeel other than some tart on the tongue and the color is basically light golden or straw.

I'm not real sure how they pull off making it a darker amber. I'd be willing to bet they add some sort of caramel color or a brown sugar after killing off the yeast. I'm sure there's some lower end craft ciders that do it right, I'm just speaking about the big commercial guys.

Hopefully someone has a more detailed explanation of how the big guys do it.

 

[Brew_Force]

Cider apples have a tannin profile that helps fill in the gaps in mouthfeel you're describing. Add some tannin to the next batch or steep some black tea in your secondary for a bit of a tannin profile bite.

 

[Pickled_Pepper]

You are correct. I do boil raisins in a small amount of water and mash them as they steep. I pour through a strainer into my carboy and shake before pitching the yeast.

 

[liquidavalon]

As it ages the alcohol blends in and the flavour returns. Leave your cider for 6 months and see how much of a difference it makes.

Now do you age it in the cold fridge or bottled in a basement or cupboard? Or can it be aged in a fridge and do the same?

 

[Brew_Force]

Now do you age it in the cold fridge or bottled in a basement or cupboard? Or can it be aged in a fridge and do the same?

Warmer is generally better when aging, but after bottle pastuerising, I would think that you wouldn't get significant flavor changes over a long period. Really what you want is for it to mellow a bit; a 70 degree cupboard is more ideal than I fridge for this, in my opinion.

 

[Insomniac]

As far as I can tell warm is better for aging (within reason), but if you still have active yeast and you have already bottled (which you probably have if you only fermented for 5 days) then you won't want to get it above fridge temps or you risk exploding bottles. You can keep them in the fridge if this is the case to keep them safe.

 

[LeBreton]

The answer is both really.

Artisial cider makers basically do what we do at home only on a larger basis. Their ciders are well balanced and delicious because they have worked very hard at perfecting the minute details of their craft while using very high quality juice.

Large scale cider makers (woodchuck, angry orchard, etc) use a very different method of production. Most of these larger places will chock their juice full of corn sugar and ferment to very high alcohol percentages using champagne yeasts and maxing them out. This alcohol concentrate is then heavily filtered and mixed with a very sweet apple syrup and ends up with a normal level of alcohol while having a strong apple body. Basically backsweetening it to the max and then force carbing. In reality this is not so much cider as an apple version of smirnoff ice in my view.

 

[liquidavalon]

Basically backsweetening it to the max and then force carbing. In reality this is not so much cider as an apple version of smirnoff ice in my view.

My thoughts exactly..." an apple version of smirnoff ice ". That is the point exactly what I was trying to make...why put all this time and effort into making cider at home if all you do is make alcohol and have to backsweeten it for flavor and/or add apple taste to it.

So...now to the next part...how can one achieve that taste of craft cider gold at home?? I hear many people saying...just set it and forget it. Others I hear say to micro-manage it treating it like a nuclear experiment, taking this measurement with this high priced tool, then checking it again with this other spendy gadget. Is there one tried and true definative way to make kick-arse cider w/o compromising the integrity of the cider itself? Do they have a Cider Making Bible locked away in some dusty vault that spells out the secret to making this nectar of the gods? ( again...maybe I am grossly overthinking this subject )

 

[GinKings]

So...now to the next part...how can one achieve that taste of craft cider gold at home?? I hear many people saying...just set it and forget it. Others I hear say to micro-manage it treating it like a nuclear experiment, taking this measurement with this high priced tool, then checking it again with this other spendy gadget. Is there one tried and true definative way to make kick-arse cider w/o compromising the integrity of the cider itself? Do they have a Cider Making Bible locked away in some dusty vault that spells out the secret to making this nectar of the gods? ( again...maybe I am grossly overthinking this subject )

If you ask ten chefs the correct way to make a dish, how many different answers do you think you'll get?

If you are interested in making a high quality cider, I'd suggest making more than a 5-day cider. Most artisanal cidermakers invest months, rather than days, in their cider. I would suggest starting with a book on cider. Annie Proulx and Ben Watson are two authors that come to mind.

 

[sashurlow]

I'm surprised no one pointed out that the really good (and expensive) ciders use better apples. Most orchards do not grow cider apples. They grow eating apples.
Unlike beer, where all/most the ingredients the big boys use are available in your home brew store, cider is all about the right apples, which is are very hard to find.
Whats the difference between home brew, mass produced ciders and good craft ciders... The apples.

 

[liquidavalon]

If you ask ten chefs the correct way to make a dish, how many different answers do you think you'll get?

If you are interested in making a high quality cider, I'd suggest making more than a 5-day cider. Most artisanal cidermakers invest months, rather than days, in their cider. I would suggest starting with a book on cider. Annie Proulx and Ben Watson are two authors that come to mind.

I actually have 'Craft Cider Making' by Andrew Lea coming in the mail.

I know that trying to make a master cider work takes time, trial and error ( error: as in being impatient and going the 5 day route ) and I cannot expect it on my first gallon batch, which I did and got frustrated...we all learn at different speeds. Hopefully the book and everyone's advice on this forum will speed up my curve.

 

[GinKings]

Craft Cider Making is a good book, but the English apple varieties are quite different than ours. Andrew Lea has a website that you may want to check out The Wittenham Hill Cider Portal

Cider is pretty inexpensive to make. You may want to make some quick ciders to drink now and some longer term ciders to see which you prefer.

 

[phaem]

For me it was reading every post on Cville Keven's sticky thread 'Yeast experiments', and then reading them again. It takes hours (and hours). I then fussed over the first batch, put it where it is cool and racked it a couple times to slow it down. Crashed it at 1.02, filtered it, and it came out a real crowd-pleaser. Very clean, refreshing, with ample apple flavor to bely its origin. Next two batches I fussed over much less, a honey-enriched cyser crashed at 1.03 and an peach-enriched cider crashed at 1.01 where the peaches brought it back to 1.02. Filtered and force-carbonated in kegs, both clearly bely their origin, and let you know of the honey / fresh peaches. At the moment I prefer the very clean flavor of the plain cider, but with some age.... My fresh cider is home squeezed from pretty good varieties, so it is possible (perhaps likely) the cider makes up for some level of incompetence as a brewer.

 

[GinKings]

Since you're in Salem, OR, you might want to visit Wandering Aengus. They make some excellent cider. Wandering Aengus Ciderworks You might want to ask if they'll sell juice or suggest a source for good juice.

 

[liquidavalon]

Since you're in Salem, OR, you might want to visit Wandering Aengus. They make some excellent cider. Wandering Aengus Ciderworks You might want to ask if they'll sell juice or suggest a source for good juice.

Yes! They are great. They actually opened a cider tasting room at their cidery location. Never have asked them about their juice yet. I know they own their own orchard though.

 

[LeBreton]

United States Orchards Directory - our listing of United States orchards has a great number of orchards listed. I used it well recently to contact my regions orchards and see who was still pressing into winter.

 

[CvilleKevin]

Whats the difference between home brew, mass produced ciders and good craft ciders... The apples.

This is the key. You can make cider that is better than 95% of what you can find in the store, with hardly any equipment. You dont need great apples, but you need decent apples, which can take a little work to find. You also need to develop a taste for different apples.

Annie Proulx and Ben Watson are two authors that come to mind.

Those are useful books, but cant tell you what you need to know right now - which is where to get decent juice before the season is over. The directory that LeBreton posted is a great reference, start there. Also check your local brew club and see if anyone is doing a juice buy. Check around your local produce stores and see if any one is still selling local juice. If so, buy a half gallon, and if its any good, you ought to be able to track down the press from the label and see if they do pressings for hard cider. You might be able to buy juice from a cidery, but if they are like the ones around here, they are looking to buy more juice from other orchards - not sell it. And if they do sell it, they want top dollar. Probably wouldnt hurt to ask tho.

You can make decent blends with commonly available apples. Call around to the orchards and see what you can get. If you talk to the right person, chances are you can get in on the next hard cider pressing. Otherwise, make a list of whatever apples you can get. If you dont recognize some of the names, go to your local produce store and buy one of each, so you know what they taste like.

Typically you want a base apple, a flavor/aroma apple and a tart apple, with the goal being to create a juice mix that tastes like an exaggerated apple - sweet and appley up front, lots of flavor in the mouth, a nice finish and ideally just a little too intense for drinking a lot at once, but OK for sipping

Once you have a good source of apples you are most of the way there. Slowing your fermentation will also help a lot. Shoot for 60 - 65 fermentation temp, which should take 2-3 weeks to ferment out instead of 5 days.

Sweet ciders are a lot more forgiving than dry ciders, and can be consumed without a lot of aging. If you cold crash or pasteurize around 1.010 or 1.020, it will taste good within a few days. If it ferments out dry, then it can take several months for the acids to mellow out. Also, you typically need better apples to make a good dry cider, because most of the apple taste is in the last bit of sugars. If you like dry cider and are using commercial apples, you can stop at 1.002 - 1.004, which will finish dry but still have enough residual sugar to impart good apple flavor.

 

[liquidavalon]

but can tell you what you need to know right now - which is where to get decent juice before the season is over. The directory that LeBreton posted is a great reference, start there. Also check your local brew club and see if anyone is doing a juice buy. Check around your local produce stores and see if any one is still selling local juice. If so, buy a half gallon, and if its any good, you ought to be able to track down the press from the label and see if they do pressings for hard cider. You might be able to buy juice from a cidery, but if they are like the ones around here, they are looking to buy more juice from other orchards - not sell it. And if they do sell it, they want top dollar.

You had mentioned previously to use unpasteurized juice...does this include UV pasteurization as well? Or does it apply to heat pasteurization only?

 

[Joe_in_CT]

I actually have 'Craft Cider Making' by Andrew Lea coming in the mail.

I know that trying to make a master cider work takes time, trial and error ( error as in being impatient and going the 5 day route ) and I cannot expect it on my first gallon batch, which I did and got frustrated...we all learn at different speeds. Hopefully the book and everyone's advice on this forum will speed up my curve.

I have Lea's book...

If you want sweet, sparkling cider, you might want to try keeving non pasteurized juice next year. My first attempt is a success so far.


I started the batch at the end of November and it's slowly bubbling away in the cold attic. They aim for a 2 point SG drop per week. ....it's a slow fermentation.

 

[liquidavalon]

I have Lea's book...

Is the book any good?

I don't know a thing about keeving...so I will have to learn about that subject.

 

[CvilleKevin]

You had mentioned previously to use unpasteurized juice...does this include UV pasteurization as well? Or does it apply to heat pasteurization only?

I've had best consistent results with unpasteurized, but overall I believe that is less important than getting a good apple mix. Choose the juice by taste first.

In my experience, UV or flash pasteurisation will leave more of a pectin haze, but it is juice and yeast specific - I have done batches with flash pasteurized juice that got nice and clear. If it doesnt clear, it doesnt affect the taste.

I do like the addition from the wild yeast and I believe that UV leaves more of the wild yeast viable than flash, but that is more relevant for the sweeter wheat yeast style. For a semi sweet / semi dry pub style cider, a yeast like Notty, S04 or US05 will takeover pretty quickly and so it would be hard to tell the difference on this count.

Depending on the juice, some yeasts will tend to work better than others so its good find whatever juice is best and experiment with gallon recipes until you have one that is scale worthy

 

[Joe_in_CT]

Is the book any good?

I don't know a thing about keeving...so I will have to learn about that subject.

I don't think you'll be disappointed with Andrew Lea's "Craft Cider Making" ... unless you're looking for "recipes".


The book is about traditional cider making and keeving.

 

[liquidavalon]

I don't think you'll be disappointed with Andrew Lea's "Craft Cider Making" ... unless you're looking for "recipes".

The book is about traditional cider making and keeving.

Exactly what I was looking for...recipes I can find on here. Looking forward to reading it.

 

[Womblesd]

Above, I read about sourcing cider juice. I started an orchard 4 years ago, consisting of colonial cider varieties, and a few old English cider varieties. I currently have 20 different varieties, and plan on planting 15 more varieties this spring. Once my trees are producing in abundance beyond my needs, I plan to press blends for making quality artisanal cyder and selling to local public. I will get some apples this year; shooting for having enough in fall of 2013 for selling. Currently, I am in the process of building a large barn on the farm, and lining up a press and mill.

 

[liquidavalon]

Warmer is generally better when aging, but after bottle pastuerising, I would think that you wouldn't get significant flavor changes over a long period. Really what you want is for it to mellow a bit; a 70 degree cupboard is more ideal than I fridge for this, in my opinion.

Cold crashed the gallon batch and then racked it several times until there wasn't yeast on the bottom anymore after a couple of days in the fridge.

I did sanitize an old hard cider bottle that I had and found a cork with a plastic top on it from an old whiskey bottle that fit perfectly. I put the "young" cider that I made in the bottle and dishwasher pasteurized the bottle on the hot rinse cycle for about 15-20 min and placed it in my cupboard for aging. Not sure how long to age it as it was very young ( 4-5 ) days fermenting but will leave it in there for at least a couple of weeks.

 

[liquidavalon]

For me it was reading every post on CvilleKevin's sticky thread 'Yeast experiments', and then reading them again. It takes hours (and hours).

This, I am finding has some of the best advice and information ( more than most books ) on the subject. Nothing, NOTHING can compete with the knowledge gained from experience...and yes, this is taking hours to read, but oh so interesting.

 

[BoomerCreek]

The secret to making nectar of the gods is lots of trial and error....least that is what the the Cider Making Bible said.

 

[liquidavalon]

The secret to making nectar of the gods is lots of trial and error....least that is what the the Cider Making Bible said.

I just knew there had to be a Cider Making Bible!!! =)

 

[dinnerstick]

“Give me yesterday's Bread, this Day's Flesh, and last Year's Cyder.”

boomin benny franklin knew to give your cider time
so should you!