Tank to tank refill???

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jbb3

jbb3

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I have (1) 5lb Co2 tank inside my 3 tap keezer. I'm looking for another tank to carb a newly kegged beer or purge the collection ball on my fermenter of O prior to changing, without having to open up and/or remove the tank from my keezer.

I was initially looking for another 5lbs tank for ease of moving it around to where I need it. But on CR, I see some 20lbs tanks for sale ($70 ask). The ad says the tanks are rated for nitrous or Co2.

  1. Are these dual rated tanks acceptable for pushing beer?
  2. Is it possible to rig up an adapter to refill a 5lb tank from a 20lb tank??
 
1 - If they can hold CO2, they will be fine to push beer around
2 - You can get a high pressure rated line to hook the tanks together to fill the 5 lb tank. Those lines are kinda expensive though. I think you can get one at Kegconnection for $45ish
 
LKABrewer said:
You will need a dip tube in the sending tank. You cannot fill co2 with gas, you need the dip tube to push the liquid co2.
Click to expand...

I have never done this, so my logic may be flawed here, but if you had a large full tank of CO2 hooked to a smaller empty tank and both valves opened, the pressure would stabilize between the tanks, thus pushing the gas CO2 into the small tank. You wouldnt need to push the liquid CO2, right?
 
bknifefight said:
I have never done this, so my logic may be flawed here, but if you had a large full tank of CO2 hooked to a smaller empty tank and both valves opened, the pressure would stabilize between the tanks, thus pushing the gas CO2 into the small tank. You wouldnt need to push the liquid CO2, right?
Click to expand...

Yes, it would fill the small tank with gas only at the head pressure, that is very little gas.

The tank you are filling from needs to have a liquid dip tube, a standard tank will NOT fill another tank with liquid co2 that you need. You also need very high pressure lines and fittings.

This is one of those....if you have to ask, perhaps you shouldn't try :)
 
I think you could fill an empty CO2 tank with liquid CO2 from another CO2 tank without a dip tube. The tank to be filled would have to be in a cooler at significantly lower temperature than the source tank. It wouldn't be fast, but would eventually work.

At 32°F, the liquid/vapor equilibrium pressure of CO2 is about 300 psi, and at 70°F it is about 850 psi. If the tanks are connected and the empty tank is at 32°F and the full tank is at 70°F, the pressure in the system will be 850 psi. But that is above the equilibrium VP in the cold tank, so CO2 will condense to liquid in the cold tank. As the CO2 condenses, it will release heat, which will heat the cold tank. If the cold tank wasn't in a refrigerator, then it would heat up as the gas condensed, and when it reached the temp of the other tank, condensation would stop, and so would CO2 flow into the target tank.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
I think you could fill an empty CO2 tank with liquid CO2 from another CO2 tank without a dip tube. The tank to be filled would have to be in a cooler at significantly lower temperature than the source tank. It wouldn't be fast, but would eventually work.

At 32°F, the liquid/vapor equilibrium pressure of CO2 is about 300 psi, and at 70°F it is about 850 psi. If the tanks are connected and the empty tank is at 32°F and the full tank is at 70°F, the pressure in the system will be 850 psi. But that is above the equilibrium VP in the cold tank, so CO2 will condense to liquid in the cold tank. As the CO2 condenses, it will release heat, which will heat the cold tank. If the cold tank wasn't in a refrigerator, then it would heat up as the gas condensed, and when it reached the temp of the other tank, condensation would stop, and so would CO2 flow into the target tank.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

potentially overfilling a co2 tank is hazardous.
http://www.catalinacylinders.com/support/dangers-of-overfilling-co2-cylinders/

so I guess one would need to monitor weight on the receiving tank all the while....
 
I'm not the one here about to get my hand froze off. But there is a technique people use to fill small propane bottles from larger cylinders. This involves inverting the supply cylinder upside down. It works for propane, but not sure on Co2.

If I see this failed attempt on the 5PM news, I guess it didn't work out after all. lol

KT
 
wilserbrewer said:
...This is one of those....if you have to ask, perhaps you shouldn't try :)
Click to expand...

wilserbrewer said:
In the Northeast we call that the "Alabama" method.

Just kidding bigken, really...lol
Click to expand...

OK... So in one thread, you have determined that because someone is asking a question, they are not capable of performing a task for some reason??

And

Because someone is from a given state, they are... Less than safe?? Stupid?? Or what???

Maybe you should stick to sowing sacks??
 
Thanks folks for your responses! So far I have gathered; Monitor weight of destination tank during transfer, make sure destination tank is cooled below temp of the donor tank. And... I'll continue to research before deciding to attempt this or not. Thanks.
 
jbb3 said:
OK... So in one thread, you have determined that because someone is asking a question, they are not capable of performing a task for some reason??

And

Because someone is from a given state, they are... Less than safe?? Stupid?? Or what???

Maybe you should stick to sowing sacks??
Click to expand...

Take it easy. Biting the hand of someone who's been here for a while, contributing and helping, isn't very nice. If he wasn't concerned for your welfare, he would not have posted what he did. Frankly, I'm concerned, but I don't have the knowledge to say anything.

Also, I'm sure his fun with the fine state of Alabama was not malicious. He's from NJ afterall :)
 
I do this regularly.

I have a 20# tank without a dip tube that I use to fill my 5# tanks. As others have mentioned, I do invert my source tank and monitor the weight of the destination tank while filling.

I got everything I needed for less than $35 from eBay. That includes the scale and the filling station. ROI comes pretty quick since a 20# fill is $21 for me while 5# is $13.

Another benefit, I don't have to get the 5# tanks recertified every five years as I do all the filling.

Let me know if you have any questions.
 
You should be able to get at least a 4 pound fill on the 5 pound tank if you put it in the freezer overnight and invert the 20lb donor tank. However, if you put that 20 pound tank on your kegger it will last for at least a year between fills. Then the 5 lb tank being use for purging and other light duties will last about as long also so is it really worth the equipment and skillset investment to save $10 a year in fills?
 
Have you ever had something that just hit you the wrong way and at the wrong time??

My apologies for my overreaction...



wi_brewer said:
I do this regularly.

I have a 20# tank without a dip tube that I use to fill my 5# tanks. As others have mentioned, I do invert my source tank and monitor the weight of the destination tank while filling.

I got everything I needed for less than $35 from eBay. That includes the scale and the filling station. ROI comes pretty quick since a 20# fill is $21 for me while 5# is $13.

Another benefit, I don't have to get the 5# tanks recertified every five years as I do all the filling.

Let me know if you have any questions.
Click to expand...

Thanks Wi. I figured someone had to be doing this. Back in my younger days, I was a welder so I've worked around gases and knew it was possible. But like everything, procedures need to be followed and precautions need to be taken. I assume you leave the donor tank at room temp and chill the destination tank? How long does it take to do a transfer? And how much fill are you able to achieve?

Bobby_M said:
You should be able to get at least a 4 pound fill on the 5 pound tank if you put it in the freezer overnight and invert the 20lb donor tank. However, if you put that 20 pound tank on your kegger it will last for at least a year between fills. Then the 5 lb tank being use for purging and other light duties will last about as long also so is it really worth the equipment and skillset investment to save $10 a year in fills?
Click to expand...

If I can get 4 lbs of fill at a time that would be fine. I don't have the room for a 20lb tank in or around my keezer or that's what I would do. Whether it's worth it or not?? That's what I'm trying to figure out. If I can justify/take advantage of the 20lb tanks on CL while they are available, verses another 5lb tank. Thanks for the input Bobby!
 
jbb3 said:
....I assume you leave the donor tank at room temp and chill the destination tank? How long does it take to do a transfer? And how much fill are you able to achieve?
Click to expand...

I leave both tanks at room temp. I used to freeze the 5# tank prior to filling, but found that it didn't make that much of a difference....it comes back to room temp fairly quickly. You could also purge the destination tank instead of freezing it, if that's what you want to do.

I've found that the amount I am able to fill depends on how full the donor tank is. If it is full I have no problem getting 4.5 pounds. As it gets depleted it seems I am unable to fill it as full. Setup and break down takes up most of the time, the actual transfer takes maybe a minute or so.

I use my 20# tank to carbonate my kegs in my fermentation chamber. Two days at 25 PSI, then I move them to the kegerator and use the 5# tanks to serve. Using this method I can serve 30-40 kegs on a 5# tank.
 
jbb3 said:
I don't have the room for a 20lb tank in or around my keezer or that's what I would do.
Click to expand...
I have a 20lb tank in the basement with a primary and secondary regulator on it. That's where I purge, transfer and carb kegs and then store them in an old upright fridge. I have 1/4" pvc air compressor line running upstairs to my kegerator off the second regulator on the 20lb tank set at 30psi feeding two secondary regulators in the kegerator.
 
wi_brewer said:
I leave both tanks at room temp. I used to freeze the 5# tank prior to filling, but found that it didn't make that much of a difference....it comes back to room temp fairly quickly. You could also purge the destination tank instead of freezing it, if that's what you want to do.

I've found that the amount I am able to fill depends on how full the donor tank is. If it is full I have no problem getting 4.5 pounds. As it gets depleted it seems I am unable to fill it as full. Setup and break down takes up most of the time, the actual transfer takes maybe a minute or so.

I use my 20# tank to carbonate my kegs in my fermentation chamber. Two days at 25 PSI, then I move them to the kegerator and use the 5# tanks to serve. Using this method I can serve 30-40 kegs on a 5# tank.
Click to expand...

Perfect! That's what I'm looking to do.


AnOldUR said:
I have a 20lb tank in the basement with a primary and secondary regulator on it. That's where I purge, transfer and carb kegs and then store them in an old upright fridge. I have 1/4" pvc air compressor line running upstairs to my kegerator off the second regulator on the 20lb tank set at 30psi feeding two secondary regulators in the kegerator.
Click to expand...

Now that is creative. Having a feed line come up through the floor to supply your kegerator. No footprint. No wasted space upstairs or in your kegerator. Crap. Now you've got me thinking... ;)
 
You really do need a dip tube tank, and a scale to fill a CO2 tank and do it safely. The trick is to have the receiving tank cooler than the tank you are filling from. CO2 can easily reach dangerously high pressures if not enough head space is provided. The no brainer alternative to a dip tube is to turn the bottle you are filling from upside down.

CO2 pressure is not related to the amount of CO2 in the bottle, so connecting two bottles together will accomplish virtually nothing without a dip tube in the one bottle, or inverting it. I don't even bother with a tank side gauge on my regulators...... the gauge tells you absolutely nothing about the fill level, as is the case with propane also.

It's best NOT to try to fill your own bottles unless you really understand what you are doing and carefully monitor bottle weight. Unlike something like propane, CO2 has a supercritical state in which the pressure will skyrocket if there isn't enough head space. It's a very dangerous thing to mess with unless you know what you are doing.


H.W.
 
Owly055 said:
You really do need a dip tube tank, and a scale to fill a CO2 tank and do it safely. The trick is to have the receiving tank cooler than the tank you are filling from. CO2 can easily reach dangerously high pressures if not enough head space is provided. The no brainer alternative to a dip tube is to turn the bottle you are filling from upside down.

CO2 pressure is not related to the amount of CO2 in the bottle, so connecting two bottles together will accomplish virtually nothing without a dip tube in the one bottle, or inverting it. I don't even bother with a tank side gauge on my regulators...... the gauge tells you absolutely nothing about the fill level, as is the case with propane also.

It's best NOT to try to fill your own bottles unless you really understand what you are doing and carefully monitor bottle weight. Unlike something like propane, CO2 has a supercritical state in which the pressure will skyrocket if there isn't enough head space. It's a very dangerous thing to mess with unless you know what you are doing.
H.W.
Click to expand...

I appreciate the words of caution. I think with a little education/knowledge on how Co2 behaves, some reasonable precautions and careful monitoring, it's a reasonably safe thing to undertake.

Of course many folks interpret "reasonably safe" differently depending on their own life experiences. Take yourself for example; If that's your ultralight in the photo in your profile, your reasonably safe is very different to many others reasonably safe... ;)
 
jbb3 said:
I appreciate the words of caution. I think with a little education/knowledge on how Co2 behaves, some reasonable precautions and careful monitoring, it's a reasonably safe thing to undertake.

Of course many folks interpret "reasonably safe" differently depending on their own life experiences. Take yourself for example; If that's your ultralight in the photo in your profile, your reasonably safe is very different to many others reasonably safe... ;)
Click to expand...

That is my ultralight as you call it........... And saying that my "reasonably safe" is different from others is a gross understatement. For example I consider GFI completely unnecessary in a well grounded well designed brewing system, having worked with high voltage all my life. I "play with" guns and explosives, at 60, I still disappear for days at a time solitary in some of the most remote and rugged areas in the lower 48, have been caught in rips a number of time off the coast of Hawaii, and have been known to swim as much as a mile or more off shore, cross country ski up into Montana's Crazy mountains alone in the winter in areas where nobody else goes, hike into the mountains, canyons, and desert alone all the time, etc. Kayak alone more often than with others, in fact years ago when I lived in Missoula on the river bank, I frequently kayaked 11 miles home from work at the plywood mill in Bonner after working swing shift (2:30 AM), shooting the spillway on a small millpond dam on the Blackfoot River just below my put in.... Only about a 16' drop........ But that was in the 70's..... You'd be right in suggesting that my standards of what is "safe" are different from most people, but I do believe in knowing what you are doing and how to do it safely. How many people do you know who have welded hundreds of gas tanks over the years, a few even had the gas in them, but that tries even my nerves!!

All pressure bottles have weights marked on them, so if you have a good scale, you can safely fill them to the correct capacity.

H.W.
 

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