Taking a "clone" to a brewing competition...

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Revvy said:
It's really hard to say. But where contests are concerned if you don't choose to brew a clone, then don't.
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Well said. I just don't feel proud enough of a brew submitted to a competition if I don't start it from scratch. I know, chances are that someone in the world got the very same recipe as the ones I designed, but it does not matter!

You guys (not you personally), I'm talking in general, just like to argue against me. Give me a break :)
 
I am with the camp of "if you brewed it, its yours" you can brew the same "clone" or "kit" recipe 3 times and get 3 different beers.

agree to disagree.

but if your made from scratch recipe is the same as another one that has already been created,then its not really yours is it?

-=Jason=-
 
Personally, like so many others, I think clone recipes are just fine. But I do think all this concern for creativity and your own unique vision of a style works fine for those who want to engage in it with style like IPAs or American Brown Ale where there's a lot of freedom & variability in the style.

However, it becomes a ridiculous argument when you get down to some of the very simplest recipe styles where quality is all about the brewing process & everyone uses virtually the same recipe. Take, for instance, the simple German Hefeweizen -- somewhere around 50/50 of pils & wheat malt. Could be 40/60, but this won't make that much difference. ~10 IBUs of hops -- again, it probably won't matter is it's 10 or 12. And hefe yeast. The process makes all the difference between a great beer & a terrible one -- the recipe matters little. Same goes for a Munich Helles -- simplest beer in the world -- pils malt & a bittering addition of hops is all it needs, but one of the hardest to make well because the process is so important. To think that your recipe is crucially important for these styles ends up being silly.
 
weirdboy said:
Have you even entered a competition before? Or maybe stewarded or judged in one?

Maybe you should try to understand how a BJCP competition actually works before going off kilter with how unethical it is.
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Actually, no. I'm lagering 2 Bohemia Pilsners I intend to submit for Judges feedback, not really aiming to win anything.

Seriously, how many ways can you vary a recipe for a Pilsner? It is basically this one-malt beer that is rather complicated to brew and depends a lot in the quality of the malt, yet I'm trying different things I came up with entirely by myself, with my own creativity and imagination. It's my beer... I think that little phrase is annoying some :D

Are those Pilsner recipes I created likely published out there somewhere? Sure, but I wanted to come up with something myself, and I learned a lot more about the style that way. I don't care what BJCPs competions are about, I care what I feel more confortable with. You guys got respect that! ;)
 
MalFet said:
And you gotta stop saying crap like "Shame on you" and then acting like thing thing people are objecting to is that you like to experiment with recipes.
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Fair enough. Deal! We're cool? :)
 
Indyking said:
Shame on those who take clones or somebody's else recipes to competition! That's wrong and unethical IMHO!
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The point is that your “humble” opinion doesn’t mean **** in this situation. The only thing that matters is the rules of the competition. You can’t just make up your own rules and then say that someone else is unethical because they don’t follow them. The whole world doesn’t revolve around you.






Indyking said:
I can careless about the rules of the competition. I just gave my opinion.
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Your opinion that people who follow rules are unethical?


But I agree, you are careless. :cross:
 
AnOldUR said:
The point is that your “humble” opinion doesn’t mean **** in this situation. The only thing that matters is the rules of the competition. You can’t just make up your own rules and then say that someone else is unethical because they don’t follow them. The whole world doesn’t revolve around you.
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I can careless about the rules of the competition. I just gave my opinion. People can chose to ignore or respect or go crazy about it. We have had all instances here.

Cheers!
 
What about folks that buy commercial beer, either from bottles or growlers, then fill into their own bottle and submit?

That is unethical! Using someone else's recipe is not.
 
Special Hops said:
What about folks that buy commercial beer, either from bottles or growlers, then fill into their own bottle and submit?

That is unethical! Using someone else's recipe is not.
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Yeah, no question there!
 
remilard said:
When you say a while ago, you mean a very short while ago right? You were brewing kits when you joined here 4-5 months ago.
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BTW, I did want to respond your question. No, it's really been a while. The kits I was referring to 4-5 months ago were the cans from coopers. I had a whole bunch I got in a big sale a long time ago and I had to use them, so I found out what the component of each can was and designed my own recipes using them in combination with other ingredients. I regret nor bottling a stout I did using the can in 12 oz bottles because it turned out the best stout I ever had. Would like to have sent it to competition but the ones I looked at did not accept 22 oz bottles. Bummer :-(
 
Indyking said:
That's wrong and unethical IMHO! There is a reason why macro and microbreweries, wineries, and soda companies don't share their recipes!
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Actually, a lot of craft breweries do share their recipes. Dogfish head put out a book of their recipes. Many craft brewers go on radio shows and pretty much break down their recipe and procedures.

Indyking said:
It's not so much about the technique as it is about the creativity and knowledge to create a good recipe!
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I can create a recipe in 60 seconds in Beersmith and as long as I'm not an idiot, I'm sure it will be pretty tasty.

As revvy said in a previous post, an 5gal batch of IPA will be a lot of base malt, maybe a pound of crystal, maybe a few ozs of carapils or something, and similar hops (cascade and centennial really popular for aroma...warrior and nugget for bittering, etc. chinook used in IPAs), etc.

Do you really think IPA recipes are that different? There isn't some dude making god-worthy beer with some secret recipe ala Beerfest. It's all about technique (equip, temp control, pitching, procedures, etc.) and not being an idiot on the ingredients/recipe.
 
BrewThruYou said:
Actually, a lot of craft breweries do share their recipes. Dogfish head put out a book of their recipes. Many craft brewers go on radio shows and pretty much break down their recipe and procedures.

I can create a recipe in 60 seconds in Beersmith and as long as I'm not an idiot, I'm sure it will be pretty tasty.

As revvy said in a previous post, an 5gal batch of IPA will be a lot of base malt, maybe a pound of crystal, maybe a few ozs of carapils or something, and similar hops (cascade and centennial really popular for aroma...warrior and nugget for bittering, etc. chinook used in IPAs), etc.

Do you really think IPA recipes are that different? There isn't some dude making god-worthy beer with some secret recipe ala Beerfest. It's all about technique (equip, temp control, pitching, procedures, etc.) and not being an idiot on the ingredients/recipe.
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I think we settled this. I don't feel comfortable, and most important, don't feel proud of submitting a beer I have not designed on my own for competition.

Many feel different and the rules for most competitions do not prohibit people from doing that.

Fine, it's matter of personal choice.

To the OP, yes, it's OK to do that if you feel good about it.
 
Was listening to a BN podcast taped live from a past (last years?) NHC; they were trying to speculate on how many of the 2nd round beers were brewed from JZ's "Classic Styles" book.

And not in an unhappy/angry way. The whole point of that book was to illustrate what ingredients result in style-appropriate beers.

So, even at the highest levels of home-brewing competition, it's pretty clear that no-one has a problem with submitting beers brewed from shared/published recipes.

BJCP competitions are about hitting a pre-defined target, not re-inventing the wheel (well, most categories are).
 
You also have to consider the way these competitions are set up in the first place. Most competitions are set up so that you have to enter a beer that fits a specific style category. This alone limits the possible recipe variations. Not to mention, every BJCP style category has a list of examples of beers that fit into the category. In theory, the beer that is most like the examples should win. So just by brewing a beer for a competition, you are essentially cloning a recipe.

Someone else summed it up best. It is a brewing competition, not a best recipe contest.
 
AnOldUR said:
Why would someone not feel good about doing something that is perfectly acceptable.

Stop trying to guilt people into joining your little narcissist world.
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Let it go... Just do it... I don't!
 
I say enter in your best beer, always. We are all clones of the original recipe anyways...

:mug:

Original Recipe:
-das malt
-das hops
-das wasser (pronounced vasser)

So, I argue we are all clone recipes and have been since before your grandpa was born.

:tank:
 
Zamial said:
I say enter in your best beer, always. We are all clones of the original recipe anyways...

:mug:

Original Recipe:
-das malt
-das hops
-das wasser (pronounced vasser)

So, I argue we are all clone recipes and have been since before your grandpa was born.

:tank:
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That's true...

Funny, I was going thru the recipe database here and looking for the award winning recipes, although people people like to insist it is not the recipe that gets judged... bur the technique, Anyway never mind that, fact is I could not find a single one who claims to be a clone... Kinda of shocking after all this conversation here...
 
Whenever my wife cooks me a super tasty meal, I'm always sure to ask her where she got the recipe. If I find out it's not her personal creation, I'll usually spit it out, throw my plate on the floor and scream, "You SUCK as a cook!" I feel it's important she know her place! ;)
 
shooter said:
whenever my wife cooks me a super tasty meal, i'm always sure to ask her where she got the recipe. If i find out it's not her personal creation, i'll usually spit it out, throw my plate on the floor and scream, "you suck as a cook!" i feel it's important she know her place! ;)
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lol
 
Shooter said:
Whenever my wife cooks me a super tasty meal, I'm always sure to ask her where she got the recipe. If I find out it's not her personal creation, I'll usually spit it out, throw my plate on the floor and scream, "You SUCK as a cook!" I feel it's important she know her place! ;)
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LMAO!:mug:
 
Shooter said:
Whenever my wife cooks me a super tasty meal, I'm always sure to ask her where she got the recipe. If I find out it's not her personal creation, I'll usually spit it out, throw my plate on the floor and scream, "You SUCK as a cook!" I feel it's important she know her place! ;)
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awe. some.
 
JJL said:
You also have to consider the way these competitions are set up in the first place. Most competitions are set up so that you have to enter a beer that fits a specific style category. This alone limits the possible recipe variations. Not to mention, every BJCP style category has a list of examples of beers that fit into the category. In theory, the beer that is most like the examples should win. So just by brewing a beer for a competition, you are essentially cloning a recipe.

Someone else summed it up best. It is a brewing competition, not a best recipe contest.
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To be a little more precise, the winner is going to be the 'best' beer that fits within a style, not necessarily matches the commercial example best. A commercial example is just an example of a beer that can be purchased which fits within the guidelines of a style. There are even some listed commercial examples, that are really close to be out of style.

When you get your beer judged, points are going to made or lost on your technique. It's all about eliminating flaws, and pushing the things that define a style.

If you win with an IPA, it's going to be because you have no off flavors, your beer is going to be attenuated right, malt balance is going to be just right, and your hop profile is perfect.

As long as you hit the style, the recipe is maybe one third of the scoring and the rest is going to be technique and timing getting that beer at its peak into the competition. (Some would say that 25% is just dumb luck)

I'd never have a problem with submitting a recipe I found, read, or ordered in a kit.
 
I will only enter beers made with grain I have cultivated and malted, hops I grew, and wild yeast that I have captured and isolated. If you buy your supplies, you are cheating. Oh wait, I used municipal water. Disqualified.
 
To me, you can have a cloned recipe but not a cloned brew. As most of you have said, ten people brewing the same recipe will have ten different outcomes. So, with that said, it's impossibleIMO to have a cloned beer and I surely would never feel guilty for winning a medal with someone else recipe.
 
I don't see any issues. You made the beer with your equipment. It's your techniques, and there are so many subtle differences. It's not like we're talking about super unique recipes. A pale ale is a pale ale, lots of commercial breweries beers are probably have similar recipes.

Now It's different if we're talking about something really unique. Like if you take a DFH Chicory stout clone recipe and submit it as your own Chicory Stout. That's a really unique beer, and an unique recipe. I'd have more of an issue with that. But if your beer falls into any of the standard BJCP categories, I don't see an issue.
 
Special Hops said:
What about folks that buy commercial beer, either from bottles or growlers, then fill into their own bottle and submit?

That is unethical! Using someone else's recipe is not.
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I do that all the time. I delabel commercial beer and recap them with blank crowns. What's the problem? ;)
 
remilard said:
Pro Tip: drop in a coopers carbonation tab before you recap, this will replace the co2 lost in the recapping process.
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I've found that one Muntons tab works better. Doesn't over carb and the floaters give it that just homebrewed effect. :p
 
AnOldUR said:
I've found that one Muntons tab works better. Doesn't over carb and the floaters give it that just homebrewed effect. :p
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I was gonna say, why even bother to brew a clone at all to submit for competition... Just get a nice microbrew with easy to remove label and submit it, right? Oh well...
 
Indyking said:
I was gonna say, why even bother to brew a clone at all to submit for competition... Just get a nice microbrew with easy to remove label and submit it, right? Oh well...
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I'm trying to decide if this guy knows how inhumanly rude he is and is just a troll, or if he has asperger's and has no idea.
 
MalFet said:
I'm trying to decide if this guy knows how inhumanly rude he is and is just a troll, or if he has asperger's and has no idea.
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What are u talking about? Everybody can play jokes in the thread except me? That's news...
 

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