Syracuse, ny - round 5 group grain buy

[copyright1997]

I will go for a starsan and in on the pbw. One can never have too much fism...cleaning foam that is.

I love my iPhone and it's attempts to correct spelling. Fism should be foam.

 

[CidahMastah]

cidah, you're killing me!! put me down for pbw and starsan.

haha - I should have gone into sales!

See all this money you are saving by spending it?!


got both you and copyright in on the cleaning stuff

 

[copyright1997]

WAORGANY - you must be spending a fortune on extract keeping all those taps running Come to the darkside of AG ha!

It makes an amazing price difference doing AG with bulk purchases. For instance, I did a slightly reduced SNPA clone batch (4 gals) as I can't do a full boil of a 5 gallon batch (6+ gallon pre-wort volume) on my electric stove. Anyway, using grains from the group purchase and hops I bought @.79/oz, some crystal 60 and us-05 yeast bought at my lhbs, my ingredient cost was a whopping $11.52. That can be reduced even further by reusing yeast, as the yeast was $3.78 of the $11.52!

[I'm not trying to cheap out on the beer, but am interested in a weird sort of way in understanding how one can make good tasting beer at a minimal per-oz cost.]

 

[rustbucket]

cidah, i hvae a question for you. im hijacking the thread for a moment

ok i picked up the wyeast cider strain.. do i need to make a starter with that? and if so how do i do that? with apple juice?

Plus for when i get everythign ready, what gravity am i shooting for? so that its similar to the one you had on tap... (4-6%) the lower side, i know you said that i could shoot high and dilute, but i thought what is the best gravity that you would recommend in case i have to add sugar or anything.

 

[CidahMastah]

It makes an amazing price difference doing AG with bulk purchases. For instance, I did a slightly reduced SNPA clone batch (4 gals) as I can't do a full boil of a 5 gallon batch (6+ gallon pre-wort volume) on my electric stove. Anyway, using grains from the group purchase and hops I bought @.79/oz, some crystal 60 and us-05 yeast bought at my lhbs, my ingredient cost was a whopping $11.52. That can be reduced even further by reusing yeast, as the yeast was $3.78 of the $11.52!

[I'm not trying to cheap out on the beer, but am interested in a weird sort of way in understanding how one can make good tasting beer at a minimal per-oz cost.]

I am all about cutting cost down. Saving yeast by washing is something I do, and I save big time bucks doing it. Have you read the sticky on it? I usually do 11g batches, then take that yeast and wash it dividing it into 4 quart jars. When washed this is nearly all good yeast, I estimate 85% viability for pitching. Anyway, that usually equates to 1qt washed yeast = 1 11g batch. So I get 4 more batches. Then I wash again for usually a total of 3-4 generations. So I buy 1 vial, step it up with extra wort from AG brews for 1st pitching; gen 1 = get 4 qts; gen 2 = 4 more qts; gen 3 = 4 more qts; gen 4 = 4 more qts.

As you can see based on washing, yeast costs me virtually nothing per batch by the time I am done. After 3-4 generations I restart the process again.

My brews haven't suffered from washing the yeast at all.

If I paid $1 per 12oz brew, I would be able to rationalize my time spent at all. Don't get me wrong, I want awesome brew. But I want to save coin as well. BTW: Right now I estimate about 15-36cents for simple to ultra hopped IPAs with high ABV for grain and hops per brew.

 

[CidahMastah]

cidah, i hvae a question for you. im hijacking the thread for a moment

ok i picked up the wyeast cider strain.. do i need to make a starter with that? and if so how do i do that? with apple juice?

Plus for when i get everythign ready, what gravity am i shooting for? so that its similar to the one you had on tap... (4-6%) the lower side, i know you said that i could shoot high and dilute, but i thought what is the best gravity that you would recommend in case i have to add sugar or anything.

Hey Rust,

You can make a starter just like you would for beer (use frozen concentrated AJ if you want). However if you are doing 5 gallons you would be fine with the wyeast cider package if your cider is moderate ABV (6-9%). Heck it would even work well if you had 13% cider but I would make a starter just to reduce and unwanted phenols.

If you are doing draft cider I would shoot for 5-9% depending on your desired ABV (I think we discussed ~5% - I wouldn't recc going any more than about 6.5% if you want it to be a tasty easy drinker).

Keep in mind if you back sweeten with concentrated cider you probably end up adding 1-2gallons or so depending on how sweet you want it. If you use canned AJ you will use about 6-8 cans per 5 gallon keg.

I would say shoot for getting about 2 mostly filled draft kegs out of your batch.

1. Shoot for ~9%
2. Split the 5g into 2.5 gallons each (two buckets) at draft cider making time.
3. Sorbate, then sweeten to taste with your sweetener (I like the double strong fresh pressed cider we discussed best, but froze AJ concentrate works in a pinch).
4. Add water/ malic acid If needed, if you want it softer/more tart.
5. Lastly sulfite and rack to your kegs.

You should end up with ~4 gallons of draft in each keg. Those ending volumes would give you an ABV of about 5.4% which is what you are roughly shooting for.

 

[rustbucket]

ok sounds good, thanks again for the advice!

what i will do more than likely is just buy an extra 2-3 gallons of cider and throw it in the freezer, i have extra space right now...

I cant remember what yous said about boosting the alc%, what is the best one for that you would recommend? table sugar/dextrose/ext/combination of sugars?

One last thing, i was looking through my stuff and i saw a bottle of acid blend for something i used along time ago... do you ever use this for the cider?

i started to look at presses and things last night.. how do you grind up your apples?, did you get your order in for your apples too?

then ill let you know more once i go get the cider soon.. (unless you want to spare some for me , jk)

sorry for picking your brain so much... I know most of this information is on here, but why look when you can go right to the source!

 

[rustbucket]

on another note

ill be adding a few things for the group buy either later today or tomorrow
some splits and full sacks (2-3 full ones and maybe 2 - 3 splits) i told my buddy and he wants to start brewing more badly epically since i told him to get in on this compared to the normal price you pay at LHBS

 

[CidahMastah]

ok sounds good, thanks again for the advice!

what i will do more than likely is just buy an extra 2-3 gallons of cider and throw it in the freezer, i have extra space right now...

I cant remember what yous said about boosting the alc%, what is the best one for that you would recommend? table sugar/dextrose/ext/combination of sugars?

i started to look at presses and things last night.. how do you grind up your apples?, did you get your order in for your apples too?

is there a difference in the campdem tablets (the sodium vs potassium?)

then ill let you know more once i go get the cider soon.. (unless you want to spare some for me , jk)

I would grab the extra cider absolutely and freeze it. I would just use sucrose - i.e. table sugar - but it doesn't really matter if you have lots of dextrose use that. If you are a purest and want to spend the money, fructose (which is the sugar in cider).

You will ferment down to 1.000 either way, so you only need to sugar up to the value for 9% potential ABV (you will not have residual sugar). So put add sugar and stir, then use the hydrometer (make sure your temp is about 68F for accuracy with your hydrometer). I find the best way to do this is dump the cider into a bucket and sugar and stir, drop in hydrometer, add more, drop hydro. etc.

Keep in mind, as you add sugar your volume will increase, so don't start with cider to the rim of your bucket.

USE K-META (potassium metabisulfite). A chemist wine maker who lives on my street was telling me once that the NA-Meta is basically a toxic chemical and never to use it when K-meta does the same thing and is readily available. Most all cambden tablets are K-Meta.

I haven't gotten my apples yet, we are pressing 10/22 though I believe. I think we have about 60 people coming to that event, so I will let you know how much we press and if there is some left. I have to set up the apple buy in early Oct. However I did just harvest all my red delicious and we are eating those (about 1 bushel for eating) and have thrown about 3 bushels in the freezer for pressing when my Northern spys are ready.

For shredding the apples I bought an apple shredder very similar to this one:

http://www.pleasanthillgrain.com/fruit_press.aspx

mine was a different brand though (I can get you the name of it if you like). My neighbor gave me a motor and I hooked it up to a pulley and it is motorized. Can't believe that I didn't show you that! I was VERY lucky to find my press on craigslist. it seems like the ones they make now cost 4 times what I paid and are made out of very small hardware.

 

[copyright1997]

Have you read the sticky on it? I usually do 11g batches, then take that yeast and wash it dividing it into 4 quart jars.

I have read the sticky and also seen some you tube videos of people washing yeast. I've also read other discussions on just reusing yeast. I captured (into sterilized mason jars in my fridge) the yeast from my SNPA clone (last weekend) and was going to try reusing it tomorrow on a victory hop devil clone. I was originally going to brew last weekend but scored some local hops and have been busy all week drying and vacuum sealing them (almost done). So, tomorrow (hopefully) I will be able to give this a test. I have some us-05 in the refrigerator as backup if I don't see fermentation action after 24 hours or so.

 

[CidahMastah]

I have read the sticky and also seen some you tube videos of people washing yeast. I've also read other discussions on just reusing yeast. I captured (into sterilized mason jars in my fridge) the yeast from my SNPA clone (last weekend) and was going to try reusing it tomorrow on a victory hop devil clone. I was originally going to brew last weekend but scored some local hops and have been busy all week drying and vacuum sealing them (almost done). So, tomorrow (hopefully) I will be able to give this a test. I have some us-05 in the refrigerator as backup if I don't see fermentation action after 24 hours or so.

I would wait about 3-5 days before you pitch the safale 05. You might not get your pitch rate right, so it might lag (until you get used to using washed yeast). If you just washed the stuff a few weeks ago there is no way that it is not viable. I love the utility of mason jars. I use them for damn near anything!

You should see my yeast refridge, it has a ton of stuff. Now I very rarely have to build starters - which is great because I was doing that before each batch prior to washing my yeast. Drove my wife nuts to have to experience something to do with beer making every darn day of the week! That said,... I did just start a 3787 and 2001 yeast that will be stepped up to 4-5 quart starters this week. Doing a lager and a belgian golden soon.

 

[copyright1997]

I would wait about 3-5 days before you pitch the safale 05.

Will do. I finished up my brew day today about 5:00pm. This was my first time using a wort (immersion) chiller, what a difference in time to get it chilled (I was able to chill the wort to 68 degrees in about 13-15 minutes.) Oh yeah, I had two major screw ups today. One was that one of the clamps wasn't properly on, and when I turned the water the chiller on I got water (very hot) coming out over me and into the wort. It wasn't much, it was hot, and I figure I can't do much about it, so I am assuming the water was sterile "enough" that went flying into the wort. (I guess I will find out in a few weeks.) The other f.u. was that my OG reading was 1.064 vs the expected 1.073. This means my efficiency this go around was a blistering 59% vs. 67% the previous go around (where I was right on target both on OG and FG.). I'm guessing the issue was either 1) this grain was crushed at the local hbs and wasn't quite right vs. the grain crushed at your house or 2) (much more likely) this was a "bigger" beer than the AG I did previously. I had trouble in the batch sparge stage getting all of the grains submerged. 3)something else...?

I didn't measure my pre-boil SG, but did measure my first runnings and second runnings SG's. They were 1.073 and 1.032 respectively, making my calculated pre-boil SG a 1.051 (vs expected 1.063.) Given I got a little closer post boil, I guess that means my boil off rate was higher than expected?

Doing this on an electric stove sucks. I guess I will need to either do even smaller batches for higher ABV brews (bigger grain bills), or go back to adding some water post-boil (which means I will have to increase hops usage), or whatever.

 

[rustbucket]

yeah, i did my first beer on the stove top (AG) and said screw that went out and bought a turkey frier.

 

[copyright1997]

I would wait about 3-5 days before you pitch the safale 05.

Just an update on this. I just checked and I've already got bubbling action in the airlock, so success on getting fermentation started while reusing the yeast. I decided to lower the temperature a little (currently at 68.5 degrees on outside of primary) as I have been trying to keep lower in the temperature range but was concerned on this one in making sure it got going (needlessly I guess).

Next question, any suggestions out there regarding recipes for my next batch to use some of the Canadian Malting Pilsen, the Bairds Munich or the Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) I ordered?

Thanks!

 

[rustbucket]

really what are you looking for, what style?

they have all their own place in recipes..

 

[copyright1997]

really what are you looking for, what style?

they have all their own place in recipes..

Eh, I dunno. On mainstream beers, I would buy IPA's, occasionally something like Sam Adams, Bass Ale, Newcastle. I tend to shy away from heavy duty porters and Stouts although I do have a couple porters in the fridge and have had on occasion a Guiness. In winter, I will also try some of the winter beers (with spices). Oh, and I would like to try something with the D2 you gave me! Yeah, I know that leaves things wide open.

 

[rustbucket]

well if you like pale or ipa's you can use either 2-row with some munich for a or do one that is all marris otter for a strong malt backbone. Iv never done one with all munich. If it were up to me, i would do an ipa with marris otter and come crystal.

so i would do this for a grain bill for a nice ipa

at 75%
og at 1.063

10 lb marris otter
.75 lb 60L
.5 lb carapils

or maybe a combination of crystals with 40L, 20L, 60L, 80L depends on what your going after and the hops that you would want to use

 

[CidahMastah]

If you like IPas and Pales... the BYO recipes for sierras torpedo andpale ale are great. Denny's wry smile IPA is awesome too - but differnt than a typical Ipa

 

[BWN]

http://syracuse.craigslist.org/grd/2577021841.html

Thought this might be of interest to some of you.

 

[rustbucket]

cidah, for your cider that you made last year, what apples and ratio did you use.. I found a hook up for me and my buddy to get cider pressed possibly

 

[CidahMastah]

cidah, for your cider that you made last year, what apples and ratio did you use.. I found a hook up for me and my buddy to get cider pressed possibly

I used gala, red delicious, empire and jonagold in 1:1:1:1. Couple keys are, letting the fruit sit for about a week so it converts more sugar. Your thumb should dent it easily and it should smell really appley, almost overripe. Tell me what apples you have an I might be able to help with your ratio, unless you were trying to replicate the sweet cider I let you taste... that was good stuff.

Get a press if you can! Great hobby and even better if you can split the cost with a friend. I was on the hook for all my cider equipment, but was very happy when my buddy starting buying in for the beer equip!!

What kind of press are you getting?

 

[CidahMastah]

Also, for the buy I added a split of:

GW-C135 for those interested.

Also added a bag of Pils and MO for myself!

 

[CidahMastah]

Anybody have an unreal stout recipe? My buddy was looking for a guiness type stout to brew this weekend. I also will be looking for a milk chocolate stout too. jhenderson I can't remember which brew (maybe a stout) I had from you that was almost thick - I really liked that one. I think you said you were gonna pass me that recipe, but don't think I ever got it. If you don't mind pm it to me.

Working towards a triple brew day this weekend with the new pot added into our system. Should be very easy with three pots, and two electric... awesome.

Thanks gents!

 

[jhenderson27]

It was my imperial porter and ill find the recipe for yah.

 

[copyright1997]

Anyone interested in splits on these?

CM-WHET (White Wheat) 1/2 (I would also do 1/3)
BZ-CRPL (Caramel Malt Pils) 1/3
GW-C40 Crystal 40 1/3
(I'd be ok with a different brand of the above if there are strong opinions.)

 

[CidahMastah]

It was my imperial porter and ill find the recipe for yah.

Thanks man. By the way with those hops - is that still a pending deal? Depending on the when I might be in for a lb of fuggle pellets too

 

[CidahMastah]

Anyone interested in splits on these?

CM-WHET (White Wheat) 1/2 (I would also do 1/3)
BZ-CRPL (Caramel Malt Pils) 1/3
GW-C40 Crystal 40 1/3
(I'd be ok with a different brand of the above if there are strong opinions.)

Do you want me to post these? I am loaded up with those particular types - but let me know if I should be posting them for interest, or if you are just putting feelers out.

 

[copyright1997]

Do you want me to post these? I am loaded up with those particular types - but let me know if I should be posting them for interest, or if you are just putting feelers out.

I'm not sure what you mean by "I am loaded up with those particular types"?

I would like them posted...unless someone has some from previous buys that they have extra and are willing to sell/swap/trade/whatever.

 

[rustbucket]

im still getting a list togeahter of what i might need, but it will be on here soon..

cidah, two thigns, i did this recipe last week https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/ode-arthur-irish-stout-guinness-clone-28239/

~ i ordered the 300L roasted barley for that one....

and, heres teh deal with the press... (im not getting one this year, i might have miss worded that one) my friends fiance's uncle has a huge apple orchard out by sodus bay. so he was talking to him, and the guy said that he could do any ratio of stuff we wanted at 25g at a time. so for this year we might do that until we have more money to invest in the press and and all the equipment to go with that.

on another note, im going to see if the orchard closed up near me and does not plan on re-opening, if so i might go see if there press and stuff is for sale.

 

[CidahMastah]

im still getting a list togeahter of what i might need, but it will be on here soon..

cidah, two thigns, i did this recipe last week https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f68/ode-arthur-irish-stout-guinness-clone-28239/

~ i ordered the 300L roasted barley for that one....

and, heres teh deal with the press... (im not getting one this year, i might have miss worded that one) my friends fiance's uncle has a huge apple orchard out by sodus bay. so he was talking to him, and the guy said that he could do any ratio of stuff we wanted at 25g at a time. so for this year we might do that until we have more money to invest in the press and and all the equipment to go with that.

on another note, im going to see if the orchard closed up near me and does not plan on re-opening, if so i might go see if there press and stuff is for sale.

Let me know what you learn about the orchard that might be closed with regard to any equipment. I might be interested in adding somethings to ease my pressing operation. I don't need a press, but who knows what they might have. Also, I would like to know what kind of orchard they were and how big. I am curious to see if they are selling property etc. PM me if you want - sounds interesting though!

How did you like the clone? I think I am going to try the BYO draught clone and use the souring technique with the bottles of Guinness in malt to get sour over several days. I was checking out that recipe as well.


Copyright I will post. I meant that I already have those items in stock at my place so I can't join in.