Switching to all grain - fly sparging vs. batch sparging

[CGVT]

You must get some awesome bed filtering. 2 qt vorlauf? Maybe I hold a higher level of clarity than most but I don't get anywhere close to clear until at least 2 gallons vorlaufed.

Also, you didn't account for the first runnings being drained. Isn't this the process for batch sparging:

Mash
Vorlauf
Lauter
Batch Sparge
Let sit/settle
Vorlauf
Lauter

If you're just dumping in your sparge volume right into the mash then that's not batch sparging, that's mashing out with no sparge.

No. Add water to make boil volume after first running are collected. That is batch sparge. Some do it in two (or more) water additions, most do it in one.

I don't consider first runnings as part of the sparge, but first runnings take about 10 minutes. (vorlauf and wide open flow)

For vorlauf, all you need to do is make sure that there is no grain in the wort. It only takes a quart or two for that to happen.

BTW, my beer is crystal clear.

 

[CGVT]

From http://www.dennybrew.com/

Batch Sparging

Batch sparging is like partigyle brewing or the English method described in Palmer’s How to Brew, but instead of a separate beer being made from each runoff, the runoffs are combined into a single batch. In batch sparging, mashing is done at the normal ratio of anywhere from 1 to 1.3 qt./lb. After conversion, the sweet wort is recirculated as normal and the mashtun is completely drained as quickly as possible (NOTE:quick draining is a benefit, not a requirement, of batch sparging.� I recommend you start the recirculation with the valve just cracked open, to set the grain bed correctly.� After you return the vorlaufed portion to the mash tun, you can open the valve whatever amount works for your system), and an addition of sparge water is added. This is stirred into the mash, and after recirculation is once more drained as quickly as the system will allow. Sometimes, multiple batches are added if necessary or an additional infusion is made before the first runoff is begun. The advantages of batch sparging are no (or reduced) worries about pH because you’re not continually diluting the buffering power of the grains, inefficient lautering systems don’t really affect the extraction rate since the sugars from the grain are in solution, a mashout is seldom necessary (though may still be desirable) since the wort will be in the kettle more quickly and enzymes denatured by boiling, and extraction rates that range from slightly less to slightly more than fly sparging. The more inefficient your lautering system is for fly sparging, the bigger the gain in extraction you’ll see from batch sparging.

 

[Denny]

I have both batch and fly sparged, and much prefer fly sparging. I like the added level of control.

What I don't get though is how y'all are saying that it's quicker to batch sparge. How so? If you think about it, the same volume of liquid needs to run through the MLT and be collected at the same rate, so how could the time differ? In fact, my experience has been that batch sparging is actually LONGER than fly sparging, because you have to vorlauf twice instead of just once. For example:

Fly Sparging:
- 10 minute vorlauf
- 40 minute sparge/lauter
-------------------------
50 minutes total


Batch Sparging:
- 10 minute vorlauf
- 20 minute lauter
- 10 minute vorlauf
- 20 minute lauter
---------------------
60 minutes total

For me, it takes a total of 15 min. from the time I start my mash runoff til the time I finish my sparge runoff. Maybe like this...

vorlauf mash - 30 sec.-1 min.
run off mash - 5-7 min.
add sparge water and stir in - maybe 2-3 min.
vorlauf sparge - 30 sec.-1 min.
runoff sparge - 5 min.

 

[Denny]

You must get some awesome bed filtering. 2 qt vorlauf? Maybe I hold a higher level of clarity than most but I don't get anywhere close to clear until at least 2 gallons vorlaufed.

Also, you didn't account for the first runnings being drained. Isn't this the process for batch sparging:

Mash
Vorlauf
Lauter
Batch Sparge
Let sit/settle
Vorlauf
Lauter

If you're just dumping in your sparge volume right into the mash then that's not batch sparging, that's mashing out with no sparge.

If I have to vorlauf 2 qt. for a batch sparge, it's a lot. I seldom go over 1 qt. There is no let sit/settle.

 

[CGVT]

For me, it takes a total of 15 min. from the time I start my mash runoff til the time I finish my sparge runoff. Maybe like this...

vorlauf mash - 30 sec.-1 min.
run off mash - 5-7 min.
add sparge water and stir in - maybe 2-3 min.
vorlauf sparge - 30 sec.-1 min.
runoff sparge - 5 min.

If I have to vorlauf 2 qt. for a batch sparge, it's a lot. I seldom go over 1 qt. There is no let sit/settle.

Yes. I probably vorlauf a cup or two at the most

I was giving conservative estimates for times. This is probably closer to how long it takes me, 15-20 mins

 

[Yooper]

For me, it takes a total of 15 min. from the time I start my mash runoff til the time I finish my sparge runoff. Maybe like this...

vorlauf mash - 30 sec.-1 min.
run off mash - 5-7 min.
add sparge water and stir in - maybe 2-3 min.
vorlauf sparge - 30 sec.-1 min.
runoff sparge - 5 min.

I'm even a bit faster, since I have a HERMS so don't vorlauf the mash.
I run off the first runnings with my pump- definitely less than 5 minutes.

I pump in the sparge water and stir well, same here as Denny, in maybe 2-3 minutes.

I turn on the pump, and put the end of the hose back in the MLT for about 10 seconds, to vorlauf, and then pump the runnings into the kettle.

That's probably 12 minutes, tops. To fly sparge my 11 gallon batches (12.5 gallons in the BK) would take about an hour or so.

I used to go back and forth and continuous sparge about half the time, but now I don't even do that. It saves me some time, without much difference in efficiency and the quality of the final producy is the same. What's not to love?!?!

 

[Moose_MI]

Everyone sharing their perspectives and nobody getting offended? This will not do.

You're all wrong...everybody knows the best beer comes from extract...he should stick to that

Cheers!

 

[MagicMatt]

I guess I didn't realize y'all were vorlaufing so quickly. No matter how I sparge I vorlauf until there are no particles at all in the wort coming out. That takes about 10 minutes at a slow flow rate of about 1gal/5min.

I could see if you were saying that you only vorlauf for 1 minute but with the valve wide open, that would explain the decrease in time but I would suspect that you'd end up with roughly the same amount of liquid. You say you vorlauf for 1 minute.....idk about your system but my MLT wide open for 1 minute yields over 2 gallons. So I'm still not sure how y'all are doing it with just a few cups.

 

[mattdee1]

+1 for the ~15min timeframe with batch sparging.

As for "vorlauf," I find that step so trivial in the homebrew workflow that, to me, it almost seems silly to use a fancy name to describe it... but I guess traditions die hard.

Crack the valve, fill a pitcher up half way (a quart, give or take), divert the tube to a collecting bucket (without shutting off the valve), and pour the beer back in the MT, finish draining. Takes seconds. Sure, a few stray particles probably tumble through, but it's not like I've got oatmeal coming out of the MT... and my beer is typically crystal clear, barring haze from dry hops.

 

[Denny]

I guess I didn't realize y'all were vorlaufing so quickly. No matter how I sparge I vorlauf until there are no particles at all in the wort coming out. That takes about 10 minutes at a slow flow rate of about 1gal/5min.

I could see if you were saying that you only vorlauf for 1 minute but with the valve wide open, that would explain the decrease in time but I would suspect that you'd end up with roughly the same amount of liquid. You say you vorlauf for 1 minute.....idk about your system but my MLT wide open for 1 minute yields over 2 gallons. So I'm still not sure how y'all are doing it with just a few cups.

I vorlauf with the valve just barely cracked, so it's a very slow flow rate. After I collect a qt. or 2, I return it to the mash tun and then open the valve full. Between the grain bed and the incredible filtering of the braid, I get wort free of particles very quickly.

Here's a video of my process....http://vid794.photobucket.com/albums/yy221/dennyconn/batchsparge.mp4

 

[Denny]

+1 for the ~15min timeframe with batch sparging.

As for "vorlauf," I find that step so trivial in the homebrew workflow that, to me, it almost seems silly to use a fancy name to describe it... but I guess traditions die hard.

Crack the valve, fill a pitcher up half way (a quart, give or take), divert the tube to a collecting bucket (without shutting off the valve), and pour the beer back in the MT, finish draining. Takes seconds. Sure, a few stray particles probably tumble through, but it's not like I've got oatmeal coming out of the MT... and my beer is typically crystal clear, barring haze from dry hops.

That last line is something I want people to take notice of...I have NEVER found a correlation between clarity of runoff and clarity of the finished beer.

 

[mattdee1]

That last line is something I want people to take notice of...I have NEVER found a correlation between clarity of runoff and clarity of the finished beer.

Right... I'm surprised how often the two get confounded. If you've got a properly chilled bottle of beer (for example), any small traces of grain that found their way all the way from the tun to that bottle have long ago sunk to the bottom of the bottle and are not responsible for the beer's haziness woes.

 

[MagicMatt]

Sure, a few stray particles probably tumble through, but it's not like I've got oatmeal coming out of the MT... and my beer is typically crystal clear, barring haze from dry hops.

I guess I'm just anal about grain particles in my wort. I vorlauf until there is literally nothing coming through. I know it may look "clear" coming through the tubing after only a quart, but collect a gallon more of it and then tell me there's nothing in it....I'll have a hard time believing that. I always get some particles until about 2 gallons or so when the bed is fully set.

And BTW as Denny mentioned we're not talking about clear beer, we're talking about clear wort. Vorlauf clarity has nothing to do with final beer clarity. I don't think he was agreeing with you, but instead he was pointing out that what you said mimics what a lot of people think, and that is that the clarity of wort going into the kettle has some correlation to final beer clarity. But it sounds like you're still talking about the beer clarity and haziness. No one else here (to my knowledge) is referring to the clarity of the final beer.....you brought that up. The reason you don't want grain pieces in your boil is to avoid/minimize tannin extraction.

But anyway everyone's equipment is different and everyone has their own tolerances so to each their own. I'm probably over-doing it and some of you are likely under-doing it. If you make beer you like and are happy with your process then no need to change. I just have the perfection bug, and there's always something that can be improved.

 

[Bobby_M]

I have both batch and fly sparged, and much prefer fly sparging. I like the added level of control.

What I don't get though is how y'all are saying that it's quicker to batch sparge. How so?
Batch Sparging:
- 10 minute vorlauf
- 20 minute lauter
- 10 minute vorlauf
- 20 minute lauter
---------------------
60 minutes total

30 second vorlaufs.
5 minute lauters.
I think the separation medium factors in quite a bit. False bottoms need a lot of vorlauf and the lauter slower. Tight braids and screens, less so.

 

[mattdee1]

I guess I'm just anal about grain particles in my wort. I vorlauf until there is literally nothing coming through. I know it may look "clear" coming through the tubing after only a quart, but collect a gallon more of it and then tell me there's nothing in it....I'll have a hard time believing that. I always get some particles until about 2 gallons or so when the bed is fully set.

And BTW as Denny mentioned we're not talking about clear beer, we're talking about clear wort. Vorlauf clarity has nothing to do with final beer clarity. I don't think he was agreeing with you, but instead he was pointing out that what you said mimics what a lot of people think, and that is that the clarity of wort going into the kettle has some correlation to final beer clarity. But it sounds like you're still talking about the beer clarity and haziness. No one else here (to my knowledge) is referring to the clarity of the final beer.....you brought that up. The reason you don't want grain pieces in your boil is to avoid/minimize tannin extraction.

But anyway everyone's equipment is different and everyone has their own tolerances so to each their own. I'm probably over-doing it and some of you are likely under-doing it. If you make beer you like and are happy with your process then no need to change. I just have the perfection bug, and there's always something that can be improved.

Hey, I agree with you. Mea culpa—I mistakenly assumed that pursuit of clear beer was your reason for having a meticulous approach to vorlauf, probably because it is still common to see “help me get clear beer” threads where the topic of grain particles from the kettle gets incorrectly mixed in with the discussion of beer clarity.

Regarding my short vorlauf, I agree with you on this as well; I already said I’m sure some particles get through during the first several seconds of draining into the kettle, and I could probably reduce that with a longer vorlauf. But the pertinent question is, does the reduction in the tannin extraction resulting from a nominal reduction in an already vanishingly small mass of grain particles in the kettle have a flavor impact that is large enough to even approach the human taste threshold? Maybe I’m naïve, but I don’t buy it, nor do the results I get point to any such conclusion.

The whole theme here is, the time that we are willing and/or able to spend on brewing is in shorter supply for some of us than it is for others, and the brew day steps and measures that are demonstrably and indisputably worthwhile take long enough to execute as it is. Taking a pragmatic view of benefit vs. time in small-scale brewing dictates a quick vorlauf, and, indeed, batch sparging in general. Some enjoy the additional machinations of fly sparging as “part of the fun” and that’s a perfectly valid reason to do it. But for the benefit of curious newcomers, let’s be clear about that point: fly-sparging is an option that some may prefer and/or enjoy, but there is no evidence that it is a path to superior 5-10gal batches of homebrewed beer.

 

[Denny]

I guess I'm just anal about grain particles in my wort. I vorlauf until there is literally nothing coming through. I know it may look "clear" coming through the tubing after only a quart, but collect a gallon more of it and then tell me there's nothing in it....I'll have a hard time believing that. I always get some particles until about 2 gallons or so when the bed is fully set.

And BTW as Denny mentioned we're not talking about clear beer, we're talking about clear wort. Vorlauf clarity has nothing to do with final beer clarity. I don't think he was agreeing with you, but instead he was pointing out that what you said mimics what a lot of people think, and that is that the clarity of wort going into the kettle has some correlation to final beer clarity. But it sounds like you're still talking about the beer clarity and haziness. No one else here (to my knowledge) is referring to the clarity of the final beer.....you brought that up. The reason you don't want grain pieces in your boil is to avoid/minimize tannin extraction.

But anyway everyone's equipment is different and everyone has their own tolerances so to each their own. I'm probably over-doing it and some of you are likely under-doing it. If you make beer you like and are happy with your process then no need to change. I just have the perfection bug, and there's always something that can be improved.

As I said, do what you like, but I can guarantee you that a few grain particles getting through is not gonna have any effect on your beer. And if your pH is good, they won't matter even if you do. I'm sure you're familiar with decoction mashing.

 

[Denny]

Hey, I agree with you. Mea culpa—I mistakenly assumed that pursuit of clear beer was your reason for having a meticulous approach to vorlauf, probably because it is still common to see “help me get clear beer” threads where the topic of grain particles from the kettle gets incorrectly mixed in with the discussion of beer clarity.

Regarding my short vorlauf, I agree with you on this as well; I already said I’m sure some particles get through during the first several seconds of draining into the kettle, and I could probably reduce that with a longer vorlauf. But the pertinent question is, does the reduction in the tannin extraction resulting from a nominal reduction in an already vanishingly small mass of grain particles in the kettle have a flavor impact that is large enough to even approach the human taste threshold? Maybe I’m naïve, but I don’t buy it, nor do the results I get point to any such conclusion.

The whole theme here is, the time that we are willing and/or able to spend on brewing is in shorter supply for some of us than it is for others, and the brew day steps and measures that are demonstrably and indisputably worthwhile take long enough to execute as it is. Taking a pragmatic view of benefit vs. time in small-scale brewing dictates a quick vorlauf, and, indeed, batch sparging in general. Some enjoy the additional machinations of fly sparging as “part of the fun” and that’s a perfectly valid reason to do it. But for the benefit of curious newcomers, let’s be clear about that point: fly-sparging is an option that some may prefer and/or enjoy, but there is no evidence that it is a path to superior 5-10gal batches of homebrewed beer.

If a few grain particles in your kettle made a difference, there would be no decoction mashes.

 

[MagicMatt]

I think the separation medium factors in quite a bit. False bottoms need a lot of vorlauf and the lauter slower. Tight braids and screens, less so.

That's a great point. I use a domed false bottom in a 10g round cooler. I see Denny says he uses a braid. Perhaps that's the real difference here. The holes in the false bottom are much larger than of that in a SS braid.

 

[MagicMatt]

If a few grain particles in your kettle made a difference, there would be no decoction mashes.

But with decoction mashes you return the decoction to the mash and then vorlauf/lauter as usual. I don't think it's the same, as decoctions are only being "boiled" for a minute or two, whereas grain that makes it into the kettle will be boiled for 60-90+ minutes.

I'm no expert on tannin extraction but I would imagine that a longer boil will extract more tannins.

 

[Islandboy85]

The reason for the slower sparge is not to make for a cleaner wort, but to get more sugar extracted from the grains. Wort clarity and efficiency are not the same.

 

[Yooper]

But with decoction mashes you return the decoction to the mash and then vorlauf/lauter as usual. I don't think it's the same, as decoctions are only being "boiled" for a minute or two, whereas grain that makes it into the kettle will be boiled for 60-90+ minutes.

I'm no expert on tannin extraction but I would imagine that a longer boil will extract more tannins.

It's beyond the scope of this conversation, but decoctions aren't only boiled for a minute or two- otherwise, why do them? The grains are boiled to bring forth maillard reactions which takes more than a minute or two.

There is a LOT of grain particles being boiled, and if tannin extraction were an issue with it, it would not be done. It's not a few little pieces of grain- it's sometimes as much as 1/3 of the mash.

 

[Denny]

But with decoction mashes you return the decoction to the mash and then vorlauf/lauter as usual. I don't think it's the same, as decoctions are only being "boiled" for a minute or two, whereas grain that makes it into the kettle will be boiled for 60-90+ minutes.

I'm no expert on tannin extraction but I would imagine that a longer boil will extract more tannins.

Nope, sorry. Tannin extraction is pH dependent. If you kettle pH is high enough to extract tannins you have other problems to deal with.

 

[MagicMatt]

The reason for the slower sparge is not to make for a cleaner wort, but to get more sugar extracted from the grains. Wort clarity and efficiency are not the same.

I'm not sure if you're talking to me, but I never indicated (or at least didn't intend to indicate) that sparge speed had anything to do with wort clarity. I was simply referring to the volume of wort (at whatever speed) that needed to be vorlaufed before perfectly clear wort was obtained. Bobby's comment regarding type of filtering equipment may play a bigger role in the volume aspect though.

It's beyond the scope of this conversation, but decoctions aren't only boiled for a minute or two- otherwise, why do them? The grains are boiled to bring forth maillard reactions which takes more than a minute or two.

Guess I need to brush up decoction mashing. I thought it was (on a homebrew level) purely to raise the temp of the mash (either for step mashing or in lieu of a mash out). From what I remember reading in the past, decoction mashing was around before thermometers were invented and without the quality of malts that we have today. With our highly modified malts, most of your Maillard reactions have already happened in the mash itself and decoction mashing isn't as beneficial as it once was.

Is this not the case?

Nope, sorry. Tannin extraction is pH dependent. If you kettle pH is high enough to extract tannins you have other problems to deal with.

Sweet, good to know.

 

[Yooper]

Guess I need to brush up decoction mashing. I thought it was (on a homebrew level) purely to raise the temp of the mash (either for step mashing or in lieu of a mash out). From what I remember reading in the past, decoction mashing was around before thermometers were invented and without the quality of malts that we have today. With our highly modified malts, most of your Maillard reactions have already happened in the mash itself and decoction mashing isn't as beneficial as it once was.

Is this not the case?

Certainly, the origins had much to do with undermodified malt and temperature controls.

And some of us (cough, cough, cough, Denny) have done experiments showing that decoction does nothing for the final flavor of the beer.

Still, they are done (even in breweries) for more than the lack of a thermometer and undermodified malt. I did a brewery tour in Chicago a few weeks ago, and they (German trained Siebel grads) do decoctions for all of the beers. Some are quite lengthy, but I can't remember the exact length of time, perhaps 45-60 minutes. They believe that the flavors they are seeking cannot be produced any other way and spend the time and money to do it.

Many homebrewers will routinely bring the decoction to the next rest temperature, hold it there, and then boil the decocted portion for 45 minutes before adding it back to the mash.

I'm more in the Denny camp- while I occasionally will still do a decoction for tradition, I don't know if I actually pick up on flavor nuances in the final beer. But that also means that there is no astringency from boiling the grain, as I would definitely pick that up!

 

[wilserbrewer]

Interesting point about brewing without thermometers. I would imagine if you dough in with warm water, decoct a good portion of the mash 3 times you will have likely hit your mash rests "close enough"

Sometimes I feel brewing may not have to be all that complicated.....there are also some visual indications of proper mash temp I have noticed, the mash will retain some foam on top due to the heat, and converted wort will clear in the mash....now all I have to do is calibrate my index finger for strike and mash temp and I'll be all set lol

 

[Denny]

Interesting point about brewing without thermometers. I would imagine if you dough in with warm water, decoct a good portion of the mash 3 times you will have likely hit your mash rests "close enough"

Sometimes I feel brewing may not have to be all that complicated.....there are also some visual indications of proper mash temp I have noticed, the mash will retain some foam on top due to the heat, and converted wort will clear in the mash....now all I have to do is calibrate my index finger for strike and mash temp and I'll be all set lol

One thing I've read is that in the days before thermometers they would pour some wort on a bench and sit on it. If their pants stuck, then they know they had converted the starches!

And you're right...brewing doesn't have to be that complicated. Drew and I are just starting on a new book and that's what it's about.