Surprising Aeration Results

[debaniel]

hmmm...

the ultimate aeration experiment...


shaking
vs.
pure 02
vs.
paint shaker
vs.
olive oil
vs.
popping submerged balloons
vs.
stirring
vs.
splashing
vs.
blowing into it with a soda straw
vs.
running it through a pool pump

vs... anything else?

 

[Ecnerwal]

You missed cooling your wort with liquid oxygen, I think. Not to mention pressurizing it to get more oxygen in solution....

On the other hand, supporting my minimal method, some guy wrote (well, his writing was translated to...):

...a liquid, if shaken up with air for one minute will become perfectly saturated with oxygen. Substantially this is the case. In estimating the oxygen in different parts of a liquid treated thus, we have invariably obtained the same figures to within about 1/50th.

It's highly arguable that this guy knew what he was talking about. The 2% error would be consistent with the best he could manage for oxygen measurement not quite 150 years ago.

 

[FireBrewer]

On the whole, I'd suggest making a good starter as being of more overall use than fizzing oxygen through the wort, if you were to bother to remember why we aerate the wort in the first place.

THIS. Definitely the primary goal.

Although oxygen does have it's place. They didn't use a pure oxygen setup, as noted in the OP. With all due respect to Palmer and a few homebrewers from Basic Brewing, here's some info from a doctor (PhD) who teaches for the American Brewer's Guild:

In general, it is difficult for homebrewers to achieve sufficient oxygen levels. The levels of oxygen necessary for optimal fermentation vary depending on the yeast strain. Ale strains usually need between 8-12 part per million (ppm) while lager strains require slightly higher amounts (10-15 ppm). At atmospheric pressure the maximum level of dissolved oxygen in wort is approximately 8 ppm and the saturation level decreases further as the gravity of the wort increases. Thus unless special steps are taken to introduce air or oxygen into the wort, it is difficult for homebrewers to achieve adequate aeration. Recent studies have shown that oxygenation is by far more efficient than aeration. Injection of oxygen through a 2 micron diffusing stone can actually supersaturate the wort with 10-12 ppm of dissolved oxygen being reached in 5 gallons of wort by a single 60 second blast of oxygen!

 

[TeleTwanger]

hmmm...

the ultimate aeration experiment...


shaking
vs.
pure 02
vs.
paint shaker
vs.
olive oil
vs.
popping submerged balloons
vs.
stirring
vs.
splashing
vs.
blowing into it with a soda straw
vs.
running it through a pool pump

vs... anything else?

Hydrogen peroxide.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

vs... anything else?

Not doing a damn thing.

When you're looking for a super-clean fermentation, just pitch a very healthy, large dose of yeast, and you don't need to aerate at all. The yeast skip the reproduction phase and get right to work. This technique doesn't apply if you're into Belgian styles or ester-laden hefeweizens, since it relieves much of the "stress" that causes those funky flavors.

 

[bell0347]

If you pitch the proper amount or rate of yeast that has been started properly and pitch it at the right temp, does the aeration of the wort even matter? Maybe just shaking the crap out of a good starter solution before putting the yeast in provides adequate O's for them to reproduce well, thus when you pitch it they are ready to go with just the ambient amount of O's already in the wort. If I am wrong let me know, I am new to this and don't even pretend to know more than anyone else here. Just kinda thinking out loud.

 

[FireBrewer]

If you pitch the proper amount or rate of yeast that has been started properly and pitch it at the right temp, does the aeration of the wort even matter?

I asked this exact same question to Jamil. Whereas pitching the correct amount of healthy yeast is paramount, you still need some oxygen. You just need to add less. Simple aeration with the correct amount of yeast is appropriate.

 

[goose_on_fire]

I just drilled some small (1/16") holes in a spare bit of racking tube and inserted that into the end of the siphon hose, then let Mr. Venturi take over. You can see tiny streams of bubbles being pulled into the wort as it makes its splashy way into the carboy.

I don't actually know if it makes any difference at all, but for zero extra work and the cost of a small piece of plastic tube it can't hurt either (short of pulling contaminated air into the wort, which I'm just not worried about).

 

[BillyVegas]

Is it crazy to think that a large whisk put into the wort and worked for a few would incorporate sufficient air?

 

[wildwest450]

Is it crazy to think that a large whisk put into the wort and worked for a few would incorporate sufficient air?

How do you fit a whisk in a carboy?

 

[BillyVegas]

I have some ideas...
But you could use a bucket... like my noobish self does.

 

[craigd]

Not doing a damn thing.

When you're looking for a super-clean fermentation, just pitch a very healthy, large dose of yeast, and you don't need to aerate at all. The yeast skip the reproduction phase and get right to work. This technique doesn't apply if you're into Belgian styles or ester-laden hefeweizens, since it relieves much of the "stress" that causes those funky flavors.

I never have done aeration beyond a vigorous shake for about a minute. I was reading through this wondering why all my beers seem to kick into a good ferment within 6 hours without going to the lengths you guys are talking about but maybe this is it - I have thus far always pitched a good starter at high krausen. I suppose I should try a split batch and do some of these experiments but I am a bit lazy about it when my beers turn out okay. Are there some good experiments out there about flavor changes due to aeration or are they mostly about getting things going quicker?

 

[jds]

Is it crazy to think that a large whisk put into the wort and worked for a few would incorporate sufficient air?

How do you fit a whisk in a carboy?

Bucket fermenter.
Whisk in the BK after chilling.

I've done this with large (1.088) stouts, and had a strong start with Notty at 6 hours or so.

 

[BillyVegas]

Bucket fermenter.
Whisk in the BK after chilling.

I've done this with large (1.088) stouts, and had a strong start with Notty at 6 hours or so.

My thoughts exactly.
Whisking should incorporate a significant amount of air... pending on vigor and time I suppose.

BK? We're whisking in Whoppers into the wort now?
(no really, im a noob and don't know wht BK stands for... aside from thinking its some yeast term)

 

[boyurboy]

BK=Boil Kettle

 

[BillyVegas]

Nice!

Yea, my first brew(s) are this weekend- so I think instead of my stirring method to cool, Ill stir with a whisk to cool this mass down in the sink of ice.

Two Birds, One Whisk.

 

[camiller]

Yea I would suggest skipping the UV lamp unless you're making a Corona clone. And yes, earlier I did post a picture of a paint can shaker. The kind you see at the paint store to mix colors.

My local big box store has a shaker that can shake a 5 gallon paint bucket. don't know if it would open enough for a 6.5 gallon ale pail though.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Brew Ware inlcudes plans of a wooden carboy rocker for this.

I'll stick to direct inject O2 thanks.

 

[camiller]

If you pitch the proper amount or rate of yeast that has been started properly and pitch it at the right temp, does the aeration of the wort even matter? ...

I asked this exact same question to Jamil. Whereas pitching the correct amount of healthy yeast is paramount, you still need some oxygen. You just need to add less. Simple aeration with the correct amount of yeast is appropriate.

Yeah. although it would effect some styles more than others some of the flavor producing compounds produced by the yeast are made during the aerobic part of their life cycle. If we under pitch we get too much of those compounds and if we over pitch we don't get enough. So yes you still need some O2 because you do want the yeast to go through that part of their life cycle for a while.

 

[Foosinho]

I'm a gadget guy, and this thread has gotten me thinking...

... if you really want to super-aerate your wort, why not use a needle wheel pump? They are commonly used in the saltwater aquarium hobby to generate thousands of tiny air bubbles to extract dissolved proteins from the water column in a process called "skimming." It also introduces a ton of dissolved O2 to the water.

I'm building an electric brew kettle now... maybe I'll rig up a needle wheel pump to inject air into the wort on it's way to the fermenter. If you really want to avoid contamination, hook the input air line on the NW pump to a compressed O2 source with the regulator set to a relatively low pressure (maybe a smidge above atmo). :rockin:

Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

 

[Bobby_M]

Putting pure O2 through a stainless diffusor stone does the same thing without having to sanitize a pump. However, many a crafty brewer will put that stone inline with their tubing leading to the fermenter to maximize the contact.

 

[RedIrocZ-28]

From my Aquarium days, I can tell you all this: Airstones -Big ones - will do the best at aerating of any type of airpump/stone configuration.

But we all knew that surface agitation was the fastest way to aerate water.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

Here's what has worked very well for me:

If you partial boil, use chilled bottled water (I use PUR filtered water that I chill in the fridge over-night).

1. Oxygenate one gallon by shaking it vigorously and opening and closing the cap a few times while aerating (pour a little water into the kettle to increase headspace in the gallon jug).
2. Pour this gallon into into your brew kettle while it is an ice bath (or add sanitized frozen water bottles into your BK or use your IC if you have one)
3. Shake a second gallon of chilled water up, and pour that one into your fermenter while creating as much turbulence/splashing that you can.
4. Once your wort has cooled to around 100°F, pour the wort from your brew kettle into your fermenter through a strainer or funnel (if you don't have one of these devices, pour your wort from the BK from as high as you can into to the fermenter at a steady rate and make sure to create as much splashing and turbulence as possible without spilling it).
5. Top off with last chilled gallon to reach your desired level. Remember to pour from a good height, and splash the hell out of it!

As I explained earlier when I shake my gallon jugs of PUR filtered water, I pour a little out first to make more room for aeration, and I open and close the cap a few times during shaking. IMHO this does help.

Practicing this gets me to pitching temps right after the wort is added to the primary (which normally is very close to room temperature about 75°F [+/- 1-2°]) which is usually about the temp of my yeast, I try not to refrigerate my starters.

After starting this "method" I have had a lag time of as little as 3 hours and no longer than 6 hours. My fermentations have been vigorous and finished product has been delicious.

 

[scopey]

I'm definitely interested in getting more oxygen into my cooled wort. After looking at the prices of some oxygen tanks I really began to wrack my brain...hmmm, I own a plastic watering can that has an oxygenator in it. It really does produce a huge amount of tiny tiny bubbles, and a university study online did conclude that for some plants the oxygenated water produced by the device did help plants grow.

Here's the same device, available in standalone form, sold to fishermen:
THE OXYGENATOR | A patented process to create 100% pure oxygen from the water itself.

Assuming it could be sufficiently cleaned & sterilized, it seems like it could work. I'd love to see what a O2 meter would have to say about the result.

 

[CnnmnSchnpps]

has anyone ever tried adapting one of those aeration adapters you put on the end of a faucet? or would they clog up too easily?

 

[BrewPuppy]

okay, so shaking works great.
problem is my back is not what it used to be. i had just bought an aquarium pump and stone to relieve my back from shaking duty. i also figured the pumps were better.
back when i used to exercise a bunch, i had a really bad high ankle sprain. as i healed, the doc suggested making a "balance disc" to help regain strength in the ankle. "balance disc" = 3/4" plywood cut in an 8" circle. cut a tennis ball in half. sink a few screws at the center of the plywood circle. pill the tennis ball with epoxy, center it under the plywood and let it cure overnight. tennis ball side down, i spent a few minutes a day trying to balance on it. it worked like a champ on my ankle.
so i dug it out of the garage and set an empty carboy on it to try it (tennis ball side up). eureka!!
now i just wonder if half a basball would work for the rest of you. little league basballs are almost all hard rubber cork (not wound cord like adult baseballs). just thinking out loud.

 

[BioBeing]

I don't know if you've heard one of the more recent episodes where the original author of the experiment called in and explained that his DO meter was defective and giving reading of up to 2.5 ppm in a sample that should have been close to zero. He mentioned he'd repeat the experiment with a new meter and more aeration techniques. I only hope he uses real wort this time.

Not having heard the podcast yet, but I am concerned with how they calibrated the dO probe. The ones I use in my fermentors at work have to have the span set. First, make sure there is no O2 in the sample (sparge with nitrogen, or use freshly autoclaved media) and set this as 0%. Then, fully oxygenate using air (which is usually what we use for aerating during growth) and set that as 100%.

So, the 100% is going to be the max you aerated during set up. If I calibrate using air, then blow O2 in, I'd get up to something like 200% dO tension.

The difference between water and wort wouldn't be as important as making sure the correct 100% point is calibrated. Dissolved oxygen tension is a relative scale not an absolute scale like ppm or molarity.

Plus, if the probe was off, then the experiment is useless. Period.

 

[moti_mo]

okay, so shaking works great.
problem is my back is not what it used to be.

It's already been said a couple of times, but I'll just reiterate. A method that works really well, and doesn't require any back-breaking shaking is this:

Wrap one, or ideally two, sanitized hop bags to the end of your auto-siphon and siphon through these hop bags into your carboy. It turns the beer into a fine spray as it goes into the carboy and aerates the crap out of it - Three plus inches of foam on top of the wort every time. This is all I've done for 2 years after 1 year of the shaking method. With this siphoning method, I've never had a slow start, I've never had contamination, and my back feels great.

 

[Bobby_M]

Not having heard the podcast yet, but I am concerned with how they calibrated the dO probe. The ones I use in my fermentors at work have to have the span set. First, make sure there is no O2 in the sample (sparge with nitrogen, or use freshly autoclaved media) and set this as 0%. Then, fully oxygenate using air (which is usually what we use for aerating during growth) and set that as 100%.

So, the 100% is going to be the max you aerated during set up. If I calibrate using air, then blow O2 in, I'd get up to something like 200% dO tension.

The difference between water and wort wouldn't be as important as making sure the correct 100% point is calibrated. Dissolved oxygen tension is a relative scale not an absolute scale like ppm or molarity.

Plus, if the probe was off, then the experiment is useless. Period.

I certainly don't want to degrade the guy who took the initiative because I also fancy myself a half assed garage scientist. The truth is, it's easy to think you can look up a few formulas on Google and buy a used instrument off Ebay and start publishing in brewing magazines. For now, I'm going to take the data from Wyeast as authority because it is in their best interest to make sure conditions for their yeast are favorable because it takes some liability off of them. Unless someone finds out that they have a back door deal with the company that makes O2 regulators, I'll trust them.

Regarding the difference between water/wort being insignificant. It may very well be true but to suggest that water was used to save costs and then not provide clear argument for why water is a valid substitute for wort is made of fail.

 

[Bobby_M]

It's already been said a couple of times, but I'll just reiterate. A method that works really well, and doesn't require any back-breaking shaking is this:

Wrap one, or ideally two, sanitized hop bags to the end of your auto-siphon and siphon through these hop bags into your carboy. It turns the beer into a fine spray as it goes into the carboy and aerates the crap out of it - Three plus inches of foam on top of the wort every time. This is all I've done for 2 years after 1 year of the shaking method. With this siphoning method, I've never had a slow start, I've never had contamination, and my back feels great.

I'm glad this works for you but the amount of foam sitting on top of the wort in the fermenter is not a good indicator of dissolved oxygen. I have a great head on top of my keg poured beers and there's no oxygen in the beer at all.

Also, fast starts usually mean that you either pitched a lot of yeast or have not gotten much oxygen dissolved. Worts devoid of oxygen make the yeast start fermenting faster because they skip the aerobic reproduction phase.

As you've found though, there are a LOT of brewing conditions that can still produce a favorable result even if they are not 100% ideal. If you're happy, you're happy.