Sulfur smell during fermentation

[RPh_Guy]

Hey all,

My fermentation is giving off a sulfur smell, not enough to call it stinky, but still making me worried. I need someone to tell me it's going to be ok or give some advice.

~5.5 gal cheap store apple juice (pasteurized, preservative free, OG 1.050)
1 packet White Labs 720 Sweet Mead/Wine (estimated viability at 77 billion cells)
Fermenting between 67 and 68F (probe on carboy and insulated).
6-gal Fermonster with Airlock.

It's my first time using this yeast and this juice. I plan to bottle and prime.

I'd like as much residual apple flavor as possible so I've been hesitant to dose with nutrient. I'm not sure whether to decrease the temp to slow it down even further, increase the temp to put it in the "optimal" range of the yeast, or just leave it where it is. The current fermentation rate is what I'd call moderate, one bubble from airlock every couple seconds.

Recommendations? Thank you.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'd check gravity, and when it hits about 1.015 or so, rack it and cool it down.

Don't worry about sulfur. That will disappear in a month or two all by itself.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I've heard the minimum temp for this yeast is somewhere between 50 and 60F .. and I've seen plenty of reports of it stalling on its own.

Since I'm planning to prime and bottle, wouldn't stalling the fermentation be potentially dangerous?

Will the sulfur still dissipate if I age in bottles rather than in bulk?

Thanks

 

[dmtaylor]

Well you may have a point there. So, maybe rack it, then let it sit for a few weeks and don't chill or bottle until gravity is stable. That's always important for bottling. Racking will remove 90% of the yeast, which will slow it down without stopping it the way that cold temps might. If you really want to end up with a somewhat sweet but also carbonated beverage, I think patience is a requirement, i.e., you need to wait for the yeast to get really tired, but not dead, and then hope they're still alive enough to eat priming sugar once you do bottle. But.... it's always going to be a bit of a crapshoot. Sweetish carbonated cider is difficult to achieve. I've done it many times, but I've also been unsuccessful often as well.

Sulfur will usually disappear regardless of the container it is in.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks again!

I don't need it to be "sweet" and I understand the difficulties involved with bottle carbing sweet cider.
I like it to taste semi-dry and I've had good results from Red Star Premier Cuvee even though the FG is around 0.999-1.001. Normally I leave it in primary for 4 weeks.
I'm just branching out to see what other yeast options I have .. and I bought this juice from the supermarket for $3.50 per gallon so I don't expect world-class cider.

I can't rack it quite yet as my only other carboy large enough has beer fermenting at the moment.

 

[Maylar]

Eliminating sulfur is best done by stirring (not splashing) during or after primary, with an airlock or open fermenter. If you bottle before the sulfur goes away there's no place for it to go. I've had bottled batches with a touch of sulfur even after a year.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Eliminating sulfur is best done by stirring (not splashing) during or after primary, with an airlock or open fermenter. If you bottle before the sulfur goes away there's no place for it to go. I've had bottled batches with a touch of sulfur even after a year.

I was going to mention that myself. DO NOT bottle it until the sulfur smell is gone. If you bottle it will become permanent.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Update! ... Still in primary. I opened it up and gently stirred for maybe 2 minutes.
All trace of sulfur aroma disappeared. The sample I tasted after stirring was great. Success!

Now hopefully it just won't oxidize.

Airlock is still bubbling every few seconds at 65.4°F. Planning to prime and bottle when it clears.

Thanks guys.

 

[bernardsmith]

My 2 cents (or is that sense? )... Clear apple juice tends to be lower in nitrogen than the unfiltered juice, and a shortage of nitrogen tends to make all yeast produce hydrogen sulfide. Some yeast is notorious for producing H2S even when it is swimming in nitrogen and some apples in some seasons are also low in nitrogen..

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you think it would be better to add some yeast nutrient (at the beginning) to prevent the sulfur?
...or...
maybe lower nitrogen is a good thing and adding more nutrient would lead to a more robust fermentation reducing the apple flavor in the finished dry cider?

Might be time for an experiment.

 

[bernardsmith]

In Britain and France keeving is a method of making cider that involves the deliberate removal of nitrogen through the removal of much of the fruit when it forms a cap. But the idea is that the cider finishes sweeter (lack of nutrients stalls the fermentation - with keeving, in a controlled manner). But I think that unless you know what you are doing with keeving you want to provide the yeast with all the nutrients it needs. You stress yeast and they will stress you. Karma is how yeast live. and they can stress you every bit as much as you stress them

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have so many questions...
For beer, mead, & ice cider I'll make the yeast as happy as I possibly can because I'm just trying to prevent off-flavors and fusels.
On the other hand cider seems to have a unique fermentation goal. I don't really want the yeast to happily eat through everything (right?), but rather preserve the apple flavor and perhaps a touch of sweetness.

I frequently see people say fermenting "too fast" strips the apple flavor and that finishing a few points higher preserves the flavor.. Maybe the quick fermentation causes yeast stress, but how.. and why does it strip the flavor or cause it to finish lower? Maybe the opposite is true and pampered yeast (nourished, aerated, and cozy warm) are super happy (and hungry) and eat through all available sugars and flavor compounds.
Does flavor loss somehow have to do with the rate of CO2 production (releasing the valuable apple aromatic compounds out of the airlock)?
What kind of a role does flocculation play? It would make a lot of sense that if you have a yeast with high flocculation AND you let it ferment slowly it will finish higher because the flocculated yeast aren't metabolizing...
What else could possibly cause the yeast to not ferment all the sugars available to them?

After all these "hows" and "why" come the more practical questions: Which things are best to provide in abundance or to limit? Aeration, pitch rate, nutrient availability, keeping temperature in the yeast's "optimum" range? Is the advice the same for all yeasts?
How do I balance any limiting factors against not stalling? I need active yeast for carbonation.

I like to understand what's going on rather than just trying something based on a guess (or even someone else's experience) and then repeating if it turned out fine. But hey, I've had good results so far almost every batch with very little effort.
I have to go otherwise this might have gone longer. Thanks for the advice!

 

[bernardsmith]

Why is cider unique? Don't you want to preserve and enhance flavor no matter what you are fermenting? Is it only cider that you want to have some sweetness? I thought beer normally finishes about 1.010- 1.015 I call that sweet, no? You balance that sweetness with bitter herbs like gruit or hops but the ale is still sweet and flavor rich.
The problem with most people and cider is a) they use crap sources for their apple juice - juice designed for the soft drink market and b) they use yeast that is totally unsuited for fermenting apples either because the yeast is cultivated to be added to finished wine to make it sparkling and/or the yeast is so aggressive that it neutralizes all fruit flavor. Check out what yeasts professional cider makers use - it ain't "champagne" yeasts and it ain't ale yeasts.(although you could use ANY yeast you want as long as you know why you have selected this or that yeast).
And yes - pitch rate, temperature, nutrients, the appropriate yeast for the outcome you are looking for AND the right blend of apples all contribute to the final outcome. But you want a really healthy fermentation. Jolicouer talks about his ciders dropping something like .001 of a point a day... That means that it takes about 2 months to finish dry.

 

[Maylar]

I have so many questions...

I like to understand what's going on rather than just trying something based on a guess (or even someone else's experience) and then repeating if it turned out fine. But hey, I've had good results so far almost every batch with very little effort.
I have to go otherwise this might have gone longer. Thanks for the advice!

I highly recommend that you get a copy of Claude Jolicoeur's book "The New Cider Maker's Handbook". You'll know more than most people here.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1603584730/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I’ve made one batch of cider and had an experience very much like yours. In the early stages of fermentation there was definitely a sulfur smell that went away completely after several weeks. I have brewed many more batches of beer and know what it looks like when the yeast are done. It took eight weeks before I felt comfortable to bottle my cider. I didn’t back sweeten but provided enough sugar to prime. The result was for me a cider product that is better than commercial because the commercial ciders to me are sickeningly sweet. I eat low carb and am sensitive to sweet things. The cider had a “sweet” taste from the apple flavor along with a tartness that was pleasant. Thing is I wasn’t wowed by it like I have been with the beer I make. I think in the end I just like beer better. Hopefully though my experience will help you.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Why is cider unique?

Cider apple flavor can be stripped by the yeast.
In contrast, brewer's yeast cannot remove the malt or hop flavor from beer and ale yeast adds quite a bit of flavor into the mix.
Mead or wine can be stalled by various methods since carbonation usually isn't desired.

The problem with most people and cider is a) they use crap sources for their apple juice - juice designed for the soft drink market and b) they use yeast that is totally unsuited for fermenting apples either because the yeast is cultivated to be added to finished wine to make it sparkling and/or the yeast is so aggressive that it neutralizes all fruit flavor. Check out what yeasts professional cider makers use - it ain't "champagne" yeasts and it ain't ale yeasts.(although you could use ANY yeast you want as long as you know why you have selected this or that yeast).

Good point about the juice. I've been trying out as many sources as I can find in search of something good. I'll try to find good local stuff in the Fall this year.
Sounds like you're talking about EC-1118 and Nottingham . I have a thread looking for yeast opinions.
95% of commercial ciders I try are way too sugary for my taste. I have 61 ciders logged on Untappd and the one's I've made myself are among my favorites because they're dry (only 7 ciders above 4-star -- 4 of them are mine). I'm guessing professionals use wine yeast but I'm not sure how to find that info and I haven't found a cider that I'd want to duplicate (except maybe Abbey Spice).
EDIT: I imagine some use wild yeast/ house strains.
I'm certainly open for tips for selecting juice, yeast, anything else.

I highly recommend that you get a copy of Claude Jolicoeur's book "The New Cider Maker's Handbook". You'll know more than most people here.

Thanks I'll take a look at it.

 

[Grad]

Adding yeast nutrient will help with the sulphur smell. But in my experience, adding even 2 tsp of fermaid k to a 5.5 gallon batch of cider with an OG of 1.050 will still produce a sulphur smell. Also adding nutrients won't make it ferment any dryer and won't take away the residual flavour any more than without nutrients, what it will do is make the yeast less stressed and make for a cleaner fermentation and a better tasting end result. You should always add nutrients when making a batch of cider. Also in my experience, when bottling straight from primary with a cider that has a sulphur smell, after its done conditioning, there hasn't been any sulphur smell. It seems to dissipate quickly. I wouldn't stir you're cider too many times since that increases the risk of oxidation greatly, especially if it's after primary is done. It would be better to rack to secondary and let it age the smell out for a couple months.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks!

I don't think sulfide will be a problem with this batch since the airlock smells much better since I intervened.

I guess I don't know why some people report the flavor being stripped. Maybe they added sugar or started with flavorless juice. Maybe they just aren't good at tasting.

In the book linked above Claude suggests NOT adding yeast nutrient and in fact suggests using low-nitrogen apples as much as possible.
"...if the must contains insufficient quantities of nitrogenous materials, the fermentation will be slow and may even stop before completion. The cider maker who seeks quality prefers a slow fermentation."
However he didn't give a scientific basis for his conjecture that slower is better, so I'm not completely sold. The benefits he describes sound like they can be accomplished simply by aging (additional time after fermentation rather than during fermentation).

 

[Grad]

Ya I'm sure there's multiple ways to make good cider. My only concern with that method would be that it's possible bottle carbonation wouldn't work if the yeast was too stressed. If he's saying that it may not even complete the primary fermentation then I think at best it would take months to carb. But who knows, maybe it would turn out to be very tasty. I'd have to read this book to get the full picture, but since yeast needs nitrogen to do its job, it's seems counterintuitive to purposely use as little nitrogen as possible. Anyways good luck with the batch!

 

[dmtaylor]

All I know is: patience and time make great cider, with zero chemicals required. Zero.

 

[diyHardCider]

Patience?! Who's got time for that

 

[mwilcox]

<-- low and slow cidermaker. Having a scientific basis for an opinion is great. But I'm interested in results. As with all such things I take informed opinions and apply them and reason to my situation, and then experiment. Eventually I form my own conclusions.
...And thus I do most things like Claude does.

 

[diyHardCider.com]

(accidently posted from dupe account)

 

[diyHardCider]

@RPh_Guy - Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I've been trying and failing to achieve a finished product with any amount of sweetness or apple flavor. After reading this (super helpful) forum, it seems the likely candidates for my struggles are:

• Too much sugar added before fermentation...so a starting gravity too high (more of a wine outcome than cider)
• Using 'crap apple juice' as the folks here say
• Using aggressive yeasts (which seem to be recommended by many people...even some that really, really seem to know what they're doing)

I'm experimenting to see which of these 3 make the biggest impact. Seems like your current batch is crap juice, good yeast, good starting SG... so looks like I don't need to test that combination

The other thing this forum seems to reveal is that fermenting dry is the common cause of lost flavor. I'm very interested in knowing if having good juice, good yeast, good starting SG will result in a flavorful hard cider, if it's fermented dry before priming. I want that to be the case, but it seems like it is not. Most experienced folks here seem to either: Cold crash during the latter phases of fermentation (in the 1.01 range), or bottle pasteurize (again, before yeast consumes all sugar).

 

[RPh_Guy]

@RPh_Guy - Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I've been trying and failing to achieve a finished product with any amount of sweetness or apple flavor. After reading this (super helpful) forum, it seems the likely candidates for my struggles are:

• Too much sugar added before fermentation...so a starting gravity too high (more of a wine outcome than cider)
• Using 'crap apple juice' as the folks here say
• Using aggressive yeasts (which seem to be recommended by many people...even some that really, really seem to know what they're doing)

I'm experimenting to see which of these 3 make the biggest impact. Seems like your current batch is crap juice, good yeast, good starting SG... so looks like I don't need to test that combination

The other thing this forum seems to reveal is that fermenting dry is the common cause of lost flavor. I'm very interested in knowing if having good juice, good yeast, good starting SG will result in a flavorful hard cider, if it's fermented dry before priming. I want that to be the case, but it seems like it is not. Most experienced folks here seem to either: Cold crash during the latter phases of fermentation (in the 1.1 range), or bottle pasteurize (again, before yeast consumes all sugar).

All 8 batches of my ciders taste like apple (including the current batch).
They're all fermented dry. The apple flavor and tiny amount out sorbitol still allow it to taste sweet enough for my taste. You could blend in a little pear juice if you want a little more sorbitol without kegging, adding sweeteners, or going through a complex/potentially dangerous bottling process.
I never add sugar aside from priming.
They're all pasteurized.
I never add nutrient.
Up until now I've only used Premier Cuvée (and Claude specifically suggests this in his book) fermented between 63 and 68F.
OGs in the 1.050-1.057 range.
To a couple batches I added malic acid to taste (final pH around 3.8 -- did not test TA).

My best-tasting cider was from unfiltered organic juice (very tasty). My worst was the juice from costco (tasted acidic and underripe) but still drinkable.

Current batch is actually from juice concentrate (bad idea). SG today after 4 weeks in primary is 1.002. Tastes OK aside from slight burnt match (mostly on the nose), clearly apple cider even if very bland. The body is good, presumably from this yeast. I guess I'll rack and bulk age for a while.
I'll probably be adding some malic acid to this one.

My strong suspicion is that adding sugar and then fermenting dry is the main reason you and others are not happy with their cider results. Try eliminating the added sugar.

Hope this helps.

 

[diyHardCider]

Yes, helpful, and yeah, that's probably right about alcohol content having a lions share of the 'blame' for lack of flavor. I prefer sweeter and highly carbonated, and maybe my expectation of 'apple' could be too high as well I'll continue with my testing... maybe switch to yeast and priming sugars being the variables, and keeping SG unchanged (so long as it's above 1.045 or so)

 

[BTFootball]

Just wanted to add an experience to this thread:

I pitched some Safale 04 into Santa Cruz Organic apple juice (and 0.5 lbs brown sugar) two days ago, and yesterday evening I noticed a sulfur smell coming out of the bubbler. It wasn't enough to fill the room with "rhino fart", and the sulfur smell wasn't enough to block out the apple smell completely, but it was definitely noticeable and had me worried.

Today I added 3/4 tsp DAP, and stirred to mix/aerate. After a few hours, I noticed that the smell coming from the bubbler was much nicer. The sulfur smell was so mild that I'm not sure if it was there at all, or just my brain expecting it. Smelled very similar to my previous batch during the early throes of primary.

It's possible that the sulfur smell would've gone away on it's own, or that the stirring alone would've done it, but I'm chalking this one up to DAP + Stirring fixing the issue.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Yeah, next time I venture away from Premier Cuvee/ EC1118/ DV10/ spontaneous I'm definitely adding nutrients.
I do not want to go through that again!