Stupid Question Wednesday: Plumbing Design?

[LBussy]

Greetings Homebrewers.

I'm seeking a source of information about the design of a small brewery related to the physical characteristics (pumps, plumbing, valves) rather than the automation POV. I am asking here because a great many of you have started build threads from the POV of automation, but I'm more looking for ideas on how to build the physical plant first.

Never having run a batch in a home "system" (as opposed to a cooler and a kettle) I'm not really sure of what I should be looking for and I don't want to reinvent the wheel. Right now in my head, I've gotten as far as "RIMS or HERMS, and I'll probably need a pump or two." So, that's my starting point.

Is there a different forum for that entirely, or is it in this one but buried?

 

[day_trippr]

I'd think the Brew Stands forum under DIY would be better suited to your inquiries...

Cheers!

 

[LBussy]

Thanks for the redirect Dave! Trying to find what I want when I don't know what it's called is about like my dad telling me to look a word up in the dictionary when I don't know how to spell it.

Which brings up a really important question: If you don't know what you don't know, how are you supposed to know that you don't?

 

[balrog]

I've always known I don't know anything. The wife helps remind me of that fairly frequently.

 

[BrunDog]

Could definitely use more context around the request. Too many variables: for example, batch sizes, power sources, power available, LODO?, etc.

 

[LBussy]

Could definitely use more context around the request. Too many variables: for example, batch sizes, power sources, power available, LODO?, etc.

Sure!

• Batch sizes will likely be 5 gallons. I have been known to make a "robust" beer on occasion, so a HUGE grain bill is a possibility.
• Power is nailed - I have a breaker box and a screwdriver and I am not afraid to use them. I could do 50A if needed.
• While I could have natural gas, if other than electric was used, I'd probably stick with propane. As a matter of fact, right now I'm thinking it's electric mash and propane burner boil (but always ready to be convinced otherwise)
  
• No intent to do LODO (please no religious arguments!)

Right now I obviously know about automation and have no questions about the concepts or products. What I am stuck on (before I can even get there) is creating a physical design.

 

[Yesfan]

I think the link Daytrippr linked to is a great start, imo. It should give you an idea of what type of setup you're looking to go for. 3 vessel single tier? 3 vessel 3 tier? single vessel BIAB? Etc, etc.

Since you mentioned 5 gallons and "robust" beers, I'd definitely recommend 15 gallons for your kettle sizes for a typical 3 vessel setup. I have a couple of 15 gallon Spike kettles and a DIY 10 gallon mashtun. That covers for 99% of my brews which are 5-10 gallon batches. I have a false bottom for one of my 15 gallon kettles if I need more space for mashing. I can count on one hand how many times I've used it (three).

 

[LBussy]

I do have a 10 gallon mash tun and a keggle. My basic intent is to add controlled mash heating (likely RIMS) and maybe some “plumbing” to avoid having to swap hoses all over the place.

 

[day_trippr]

I think if you start a thread in the Brew Stands forum outlining...

- what you already have and want to use
- the number of vessels you're thinking of using
- your preference wrt rig geometry (single tier vs two or three)
- how many pumps you'll use
- HERMs vs RIMMs preference
- fuel preference
- chiller preference (you may have something already for that)
- level of automation - if non-zero

...the HBT Collective will help you refine your concept and speed the transition to implementation...

Cheers!

 

[LBussy]

Yep, I’ll do that. Since people we’re asking questions I thought I’d answer.

 

[day_trippr]

Of course. It would be rude not to

Cheers!

 

[BrunDog]

I'm partial to a 2-vessel, direct-sparge rig!

 

[LBussy]

I'm partial to a 2-vessel, direct-sparge rig!

I think I may have heard that somewhere.

I don’t think that will work for me, I have a need to do water treatments for the Sparge, and the directs barge precludes that.

It’s a great idea though!

 

[BrunDog]

Kinda true, but not necessarily. I put all my salts in the mash and/or boil. I use RO so that doesn’t need to be treated for sparging. Alternatively if you draw from a water vessel, you can treat/acidify the water in that vessel before drawing from it for sparge.

Anyway, just a thought.

 

[LBussy]

That’s a possibility I guess. While I understand the theory of direct sparge, I’m not sure how it works in practice. Maybe you can explain in the other thread I started?

 

[BrunDog]

5500W element (running at around 67% net power in my case of ~78 degree water) at 1 qpm will yield 165 - 170 degree sparge water.

I personally have it automated where it adjusts on the fly using a flowmeter, motorized proportional valve, and the temp probe to hold the flow rate and temp consistent, but it could be done manually using a manual set of valves. At the end of the day, the flow rate doesn’t really matter much so long as the temp is controlled.

A standard PID (manual mode is better) can be used for this and adjusted on occasion as needed. Once it settles it will only need maybe one or two adjustments.

In my case, I integrated hi/low voltage to switch from high (strike water heating, mashout, cleaning) to low (mash temp hold and step mashing) but I don’t think it’s necessary with the right element and cycle timing.

RIMs config really matters, probably more than anything. RIMs rube needs to have as little dead space as possible enough turbulence during slow sparge flow rate to eliminate local boiling. Baffles, or wires around the element can help. We built a bespoke very low density element for this purpose (and gentle wort heating). Also the orientation must be vertical.

 

[LBussy]

Do you have a pic or drawing of your setup? Or is it the one linked in your sig?

My water is a LOT colder than that, especially in winter.

 

[BrunDog]

My sig had the link to my rig. There is a video in there somewhere but it’s a bit dated! Unfortunately haven’t brewed actual beer much lately - just testing work... sigh!

 

[LBussy]

I hear ya man. All I seem to do is travel and code in my spare time. Lots easier to do that from the hotel. I am collecting parts and pieces however.