Stupid Idea?

[dpinette2]

I’ve brewed about 12batches. I keep improving and my beer is becoming extremely good. But as i stride to make even better beer, I’m looking at things I can improve on. The one part of my procedure that seems to fall short each time is my og.

I use a converted ice cooler to mash. The cooler loses heat extremely quick. Did a porter sunday, strike water was 170(beer smith said 167) Wanted to mash at 155, settled at 152. Checked 30 mins later and it was at 147, 30 mins later 144, 15 mins later 142. My measured post mash gravity are usual above estimated. I drain the whole MT, then batch sparge. I heat the first runnings while the sparge is draining and then add it to the BK. Mix around and take a gravity reading for my pre boil gravity....This is where i see a major dip in my numbers. Example, this last batch was
-end of mash 1.075(estimated 1.070)
-pre boil 1.055(estimated 1.079)

Boil for 75 mins
OG 1.058(estimated 1.089)

I do 6gallon batch
mashed with 6gallons, sparged 4.5 gallons
preboil volume 7.75gallons


I keep tweeting things and my numbers don’t seem to improve(this one seem to go down)

So what i was thinking of doing is

Use my BK as a mash tun, keep burned low to maintain temp. BK has false bottom(that leaves about two gallons of space that the grain would be above the bottom of bk)

Things I was thinking of doing, after 20 mins, drain a few gallons and pour back over the top. Repeat a few times. After 75 mins, drain into a bucket, then fly sparge to hit my pre boil volume. Drain grain from BK, add wort to bk and boil.

Am i making a mistake with this thought process?

Any help/ideas is appreciated.

 

[chickypad]

I'm not understanding your terminology. By "end of mash" do you mean your first runnings? If so that estimated target doesn't look right. If you're aiming for a 1.089 beer the first runnings should be a lot higher, and would definitely be higher than the pre boil estimate as that includes your second runnings. What was your grainbill?

 

[eric19312]

Welcome to the hobby!

I think your cooler is losing too much heat. Does it have a tight fitting lid? Are you brewing in a windy location? If so get that lid on there tight and put a sleeping bag over the cooler. Perhaps set up some sort of wind screen. Don't open the cooler more than once during the mash. Maybe just get in there at 30 min and give it a quick stir then close it back up. You could practice this with a cooler full of warm water to figure out what you need to do to reduce the heat loss.

You can certainly mash in a kettle adding heat as you go and doing some sort of recirculation like you described. I do that on my system but have continuous recirculation and control the heat based on temperature of the mash. I think this will be pretty tricky with the set up you described and a lot of juggling liquids I think you would be better off getting the cooler to work.

Next on your gravity numbers. If you are sparging your end of mash gravity will be highest pre boil number you see. Your end of mash at 1.075 sounds good. When you do a batch sparge you are rinsing with water and your gravity in the kettle will drop. So your preboil 1.055 makes perfect sense. Then your gravity will go up as you boil off water, sounds like you probably had a slow boil on this and you ended up at 1.058. Nothing wrong with a slow boil but to get to your intended 1.089 OG you would of needed to boil much harder or much longer.

Hope this helps. Maybe a picture of your mash tun would help me understand the issue better.

 

[cmybeer]

Yeah, your preboild should be lower then your first runnings. First runnings or as you said end of mash will have the highest density of sugar and the sparge is rinsing the leftover sugars in. So, when you mix those two together it will be diluted, meaning the preboil gravity should be a lot lower than the end of sparge.

 

[Qhrumphf]

As far as your cycling, recirculating the mash is very much a thing as said above. Rather than pouring like you intend, use a pump and do it continuously.

As far as numbers, depending on your grain bill, 1.075 first runnings aren't unreasonable at all. But as others are saying you're only gonna drop gravity from there as you sparge. To that end your actual numbers don't look whacky. Your recipe/equipment calculations are probably off, and your targets are not possible (based on the info we have at least, if you're adding sugar or DME or something to your WK that's a different story).

 

[rodwha]

I used to use a 5 gal Igloo mash tun, but it fell off of the shelf and cracked. So I bought a 10 gal cooler as I was limited by the smaller cooler. What I found was my mash temp dropped like a rock in a pond much like yours. Luckily I hadn’t tossed the old water jug out and found that if I clipped off the little doohickeys that hold the strong to the lid from the 5 gal cooler it fit nicely inside and has helped me lose maybe 1* instead of 10*. I’m wondering if you are having headspace issues too.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yes, headspace means temp loss for sure. If you're not regularly doing really big beers, a 5 gal cooler for 5 gal batches is far better than a 10 gal cooler.

Other options, mash small beers thinner to increase thermal mass and fill the headspace, or keep the small cooler and mash bigger beers thicker (though you still reach a limit). I have no problem mashing big beers as thick as 1 qt/lb. I'm not a fan of thin mashes in general (a pox on "no sparge").

 

[dpinette2]

As I’m still learning, I’m using beer smith terminolgy(to the best of my ability)

These are my number....I may not be entering them correctly as well(guess that’s possible)

grain bill


so i’m guessing i’m not getting a hard enough boil and too much room(emptyness) in my MT is hurting, I’m only filling half of it, it seems

 

[TechFanMD]

That's a lot of heat to lose on a cooler. Do you preheat the cooler?

I do my mash indoors in cold weather, and preheat the cooler mash tun and I rarely lose 1 degree over the hour.

 

[rodwha]

Good one. Hadn’t thought about the possibility it wasn’t preheated.

 

[chickypad]

Well if you only look at your grains that's 15.325 lbs, so in 6 gals that's a mash thickness of 1.56 qt per lb. 100% conversion would be 1.078 so you would look pretty good there with 1.075 first runnings. I think one problem is beersmith expected you do get a whole lot of fermentables from the pumpkin, and maybe the pecans, which I don't think you got.

The other issue I see is that seems like a lot of water losses. With 15 lb of grain you should have lost a little under 2 gals which should have given you 4 gals of high gravity runnings. Normally I would expect you to then sparge with about 3 gals for 7 gal preboil, and boil off to 6 gal or so. Instead you're using a lot more water, and by doing a much bigger sparge you're diluting your wort. Do you have a diptube to pick up that 2 gals of deadspace? Also were you really expecting to boil off 1.75 gals or was that a miscalculation?

 

[dpinette2]

Sorry...

My complete brewday is inside

I actually did warm the MT this time(first time) I used the hot tap water, filled with a few gallons and let sit for 15mins....was debating boiling some water and letting that sit for awhile? Thoughts


As far as the liquid....I got a lil more than 3 gallons from first runnings, which was unusal(i’ve mostly done ipas til this) so i wrote it off to the pumpkin(also 15 oz of butternut squash and 15oz of pumpkin in mash). Then batches sparged and got 4.5 off that.

Could it just be the pumpkin/pecans/squash/sweet pot draining the heat? I was actually worried it was going to raise the temp as i cook all of that at 350 for an hr, let cool for 15mins

I could be estimating some of my numbers incorrectly

I estimate 1gallon left in BK, .5 in MT

I haven’t dumped the whole kettle in(leave hops/breaks)....should I just be draining the whole kettle and worry about it settling out later

I have a ss conical to ferment(with temp control)

 

[mongoose33]

It's not so much the headspace as it is the amount of the cooler that's exposed to the ambient conditions.

I didn't read where the OP did anything to wrap or insulate the cooler. That, to me, is a necessity. I used a 12-gallon Igloo Ice Cube cooler and even when I was sparging I didn't see all that much temperature loss, provided I did two things:

1. Preheated the mash tun with a gallon of boiling water, the steam from which would heat up everything including the lid.

2. Insulate the cooler with a sort of quilt-blanket thing to limit exposure of the cooler to ambient conditions.

 

[dpinette2]

It's not so much the headspace as it is the amount of the cooler that's exposed to the ambient conditions.

I didn't read where the OP did anything to wrap or insulate the cooler. That, to me, is a necessity. I used a 12-gallon Igloo Ice Cube cooler and even when I was sparging I didn't see all that much temperature loss, provided I did two things:

1. Preheated the mash tun with a gallon of boiling water, the steam from which would heat up everything including the lid.

2. Insulate the cooler with a sort of quilt-blanket thing to limit exposure of the cooler to ambient conditions.

So I’ll def do the boiling water going forward.

so basically just wrap the cooler up in blankets???

 

[Qhrumphf]

I've usully preheated by filling the MLT with 195F water, letting sit a couple mins with lid on, remove lid and draining to target stike volume, then lid on letting that cool to strike temp.

With a 10 gal batch in a 10 gal cooler (good for up to maybe 1.065-1.070 OG without running out of room), I experience virtually no heat loss that way.

 

[mongoose33]

So I’ll def do the boiling water going forward.

so basically just wrap the cooler up in blankets???

Yes, whatever you have. I use a sort of quilt-look thing (it's a print, not an actual quilt) to wrap mine up. Here's that quilt wrapping up my BIAB setup:

 

[juggabrew]

Have you checked the accuracy of your thermometer? Maybe it needs calibration. Also, do you check PH? Could not be getting full conversion. What about dough balls?

 

[rodwha]

Wrap a quilt around an insulated cooler? I’ve only needed to do that with my initial water cooler as it was a 2 gal Igloo with a non insulated lid.

Heck, I have a Coleman icechest that will hold ice for almost a week while outdoor camping in the Texas summer.

I’ve never heard of an insulated water jug/ice chest require additional insulation to hold its temp well with the exception of dead space.

 

[mongoose33]

Wrap a quilt around an insulated cooler? I’ve only needed to do that with my initial water cooler as it was a 2 gal Igloo with a non insulated lid.

Heck, I have a Coleman icechest that will hold ice for almost a week while outdoor camping in the Texas summer.

I’ve never heard of an insulated water jug/ice chest require additional insulation to hold its temp well with the exception of dead space.

Those coolers aren't insulated in the sense of having foam filling the area between the inner and outer skin. It's very common to cover up a mash tun with a blanket, faux quilt (mine used to be a paint drop cloth, I rescued it from that), people have had great success with sleeping bags.

Any time someone's mash tun is losing heat too fast it's a matter of heat loss to ambient; one can slow that with wrapping insulation around it.

Sometimes I wish I had a Yeti cooler to do this; I'll bet that wouldn't lose a quarter degree in an hour.

 

[dpinette2]

Have you checked the accuracy of your thermometer? Maybe it needs calibration. Also, do you check PH? Could not be getting full conversion. What about dough balls?

Thermometer is new and i do check ph, comes in 5.3-5.5 for most part

 

[rodwha]

Those coolers aren't insulated in the sense of having foam filling the area between the inner and outer skin. It's very common to cover up a mash tun with a blanket, faux quilt (mine used to be a paint drop cloth, I rescued it from that), people have had great success with sleeping bags.

Any time someone's mash tun is losing heat too fast it's a matter of heat loss to ambient; one can slow that with wrapping insulation around it.

Sometimes I wish I had a Yeti cooler to do this; I'll bet that wouldn't lose a quarter degree in an hour.

You can get several of Coleman’s version for the same price. Of course it doesn’t say Yeti but it holds up quite well.

 

[dpinette2]

Just an update-Brewed yesterday. Put a gallon of boiling water in the cooler and let it sit for 10mins....did the trick, held the temp almost the whole mash time, mashed at 153, 75mina ended at 150.

Also cut off a half gallon of water from my sparge amount. I was typically doing 6strike and 4.5sparge, so did 6 strike and 4 sparge. Gave me a shade under 8 in kettle

So less in the BK, and got a more vigorous boil.

Results, aiming for 7.4 abv, at 64 efficiency....got 79 efficiency which is awesome, but now I have a 9.4 monster in the fermenter!!!!

 

[Soulshine2]

I’ve brewed about 12batches. I keep improving and my beer is becoming extremely good. But as i stride to make even better beer, I’m looking at things I can improve on. The one part of my procedure that seems to fall short each time is my og.

I use a converted ice cooler to mash. The cooler loses heat extremely quick. Did a porter sunday, strike water was 170(beer smith said 167) Wanted to mash at 155, settled at 152. Checked 30 mins later and it was at 147, 30 mins later 144, 15 mins later 142. My measured post mash gravity are usual above estimated. I drain the whole MT, then batch sparge. I heat the first runnings while the sparge is draining and then add it to the BK. Mix around and take a gravity reading for my pre boil gravity....This is where i see a major dip in my numbers. Example, this last batch was
-end of mash 1.075(estimated 1.070)
-pre boil 1.055(estimated 1.079)

Boil for 75 mins
OG 1.058(estimated 1.089)

I do 6gallon batch
mashed with 6gallons, sparged 4.5 gallons
preboil volume 7.75gallons


I keep tweeting things and my numbers don’t seem to improve(this one seem to go down)

So what i was thinking of doing is

Use my BK as a mash tun, keep burned low to maintain temp. BK has false bottom(that leaves about two gallons of space that the grain would be above the bottom of bk)

Things I was thinking of doing, after 20 mins, drain a few gallons and pour back over the top. Repeat a few times. After 75 mins, drain into a bucket, then fly sparge to hit my pre boil volume. Drain grain from BK, add wort to bk and boil.

Am i making a mistake with this thought process?

Any help/ideas is appreciated.

are you milling your own grains?
what mill gap?
are you pre-heating your mash tun?
How much water was used in your "first runnings" a.k.a, your mash?
Are you stirring your grain during the mash?
Are you leaving the lid on the mash tun?
What are you using to strain your grains-bag, false bottom , bazooka tube, etc?
75 minutes is a long boil, 60 minutes is plenty...unless you added too much water and your numbers are off.
your mash should be 60 minutes ...75 minutes is a bit overkill. Your conversion shouldn't take that long,and sparges can be 10 minute batches . I prefer to stir my batch sparges . yes it requires a vorlauf every time but I get more of the fermentable sugars out that way.
Your OG isn't that far off. whats your target FG and actual FG?
Is your hydrometer calibrated?
Are you checking your gravities at 60*F?

 

[dpinette2]

1.I do not mill, buy crushed

2.Heated for first time yesterday, 1.5gallons of boiling water for 10mins

3.6gallons of strike water

4.stir at 30mins

5.yes, lid on

6. not sure i understand the strain the grain question, i converted a cooler into a MT, took pvc and drilled holes to filter the wort, is this what u mean?

7.I use a refractometer

8.check in the 60’s, i have a chart
to convert at